How to Reduce Yama Dispersion

[LetsRockAndRoll]

I was watching a Ohjeezums playing his Yama on twitch last night when another popular NA streamer joined the chat and told Ohjeezums that he could reduce the dispersion on his Yama by fitting the accuracy and range modules. Apparently someone has done the math ( WG style ) and can prove that it works.

 

I don't have the Yama myself and was wondering what Yama owners thoughts on this are?

 

 

 

[Tyrendian89]

Range? What sense would that make?

[Carnivore81]

dont think its a good use of Mudules. even so we dont know how WG calculate Dispersion

[LetsRockAndRoll]

Wasnt accuracy and Range on the same slot?

 

I have no idea as I don't have the Yama. However, the range module seems to be the important one.

There wasn't an explanation of the math involved. But it was stated that the math proves that it works.

 

[Fiery_Kathy]

 

I have no idea as I don't have the Yama. However, the range module seems to be the important one.

There wasn't an explanation of the math involved. But it was stated that the math proves that it works.

 

 

I think range and ccuracy or indeed the same module slots, so I have no clue how that would work.

[robihr]

 Don't trust people who say math/science has proven things.

 

 

[WolfGewehr]

I think they try to achieve something like this:   (pro paint skillz ^^)

 

So with range and accuracy upgrade they can achieve smaller dispersion at range X when compared to the stock ship.

 

Edit: to clarify just in case: red is the "dispersion circle" (call it what you want) in which the shells should fall inside. So you can see with those green lines what is the dispersion at certain ranges.

 

Edit2: to further clarify my fast and rough sketch made to help to visually understand* what streamers prolly indented to achieve: STOCK ship (no upgrades) vs ship with both accuracy and range upgrades.

 

* so it may be a bit faulty as everything is exaggerated

[LetsRockAndRoll]

I think they try to achieve something like this:   (pro paint skillz ^^)

 

So with range and accuracy upgrade they can achieve smaller dispersion at range X when compared to the stock ship.

 

That does seem to be the idea behind the setup.

 

[Tyrendian89]

well duh, because there's an accuracy module mounted. Range module helping that still doesn't make any sense.

[WolfGewehr]

well duh, because there's an accuracy module mounted. Range module helping that still doesn't make any sense.

 

It does, just draw some examples yourself on paper. To explain shortly: the idea is still the same as in my picture: max dispersion is bigger at max range (duh) but at  range which both setups can reach, the gun with more range has a bit better dispersion thanks to the fact how things work ingame.

 

So range upgrade does help.

 

Ofc the dispersion increase at new max range cant be big or this trick to increase accuracy at lower ranges will not work.

 

Edit2: but with same ship you apparently need both to get the trick work; range upgrade to increase the max range and then accuracy module to make dispersion smaller at max range, so as result the new setup's dispersion will be lower at that famous range X.

 

God I'm awful at explaining this...

 

Edit3: accuracy module alone is enough to reduce dispersion at range X (no sh#t), but if you add the range module, your dispersion at the same range X will may* get even better thanks to how things work**

 

* well, now we'd need the maths from someone pls to check this

 

** This is what my pic tries to roughly describe

 

I won't try anymore, ask someone else pls

 

 

[Crooq_Lionfang]

Not sure how to say this, so I will just try and hope you guys understand what I mean. Are we sure that the legs of that cone are linear, or does the degree at which it widens differ between let's say short range, medium range and long range? That way, with the range module, the old long range would become medium range, where dispersion factor might be smaller

[WolfGewehr]

IIRC they (green lines) are (somewhat) linear. But my drawing is just a rough sketch to illustrate the main idea behind this "trick". For example I left out from pic the fact that BBs have increased accuracy up to 3km. For detailed maths and ingame dispersion questions ask someone else.

 

Edit: found something if it interests you:

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/29632-ru-dev-talks-about-the-new-accuracy-buff-on-041/

[anonym_gxxGX7KaxQVa]

I think they try to achieve something like this:   (pro paint skillz ^^)

 

So with range and accuracy upgrade they can achieve smaller dispersion at range X when compared to the stock ship.

 

Edit: to clarify just in case: red is the "dispersion circle" (call it what you want) in which the shells should fall inside. So you can see with those green lines what is the dispersion at certain ranges.

 

 

damn.... THIS Actually seems like it could work!!  why didn't i think of that??

 

 

PS: has anyone done the math on how much bonus dispersion this trick gives ?

given that we Have the Dispersion/range graph for boh US and IJN battleships (it's on the WG comon Wiki: people plotted it using different ships from the same lines that have different ranges. apparently the relation is linear: the accuracy of BB's remain the same from tier 3 to 10, only the range increase).

we could possibly calculate this by plotting again the graph but using only the values of tier 9 and 10 ships with the Accuracy+ Range modules and and simply compare with the Base Value curve from the Wiki: to see how much dispersion bonus this gives them at lower range no ??

 

edit: Here is the Graph i was talking about:

 

[Kartoffelmos]

Interesting...

 

So here's my take on it. The gun range module improves the firing range by 16 % while the accuracy module decreases the dispersion by 7 %. Let's define normal dispersion as X. The resulting dispersion will then be:

• With accuracy module: X * 0,93 = 0,93X
• With both modules at maximum range: X * 0,93 * 1,16 = 1,0788X
• With both modules at normal range: 1,0788X * (1/1,16) = 0,93X

 

So there is no increase (unless the range module does not increase zone of improved accuracy which then means that you will get a slight improvement). Since I do not have the calculations of said streamer, I cannot know for sure, but I think the confusion arises from the fact that you cannot detract 16 % from the increased range and get the original range (1,16 * 100 = 116, but (1-0,16) * 116 = 97,44 =/= 100). 

[piet11111]

WolfGewehr nailed it with his L33t paint skills.

I noticed the same effect on my Iowa where boosting range really gave me the impression that the guns got more accurate at shorter ranges.

 

[Crooq_Lionfang]

Interesting...

 

So here's my take on it. The gun range module improves the firing range by 16 % while the accuracy module decreases the dispersion by 7 %. Let's define normal dispersion as X. The resulting dispersion will then be:

• With accuracy module: X * 0,93 = 0,93X
• With both modules at maximum range: X * 0,93 * 1,16 = 1,0788X
• With both modules at normal range: 1,0788X * (1/1,16) = 0,93X

 

So there is no increase (unless the range module does not increase zone of improved accuracy which then means that you will get a slight improvement). Since I do not have the calculations of said streamer, I cannot know for sure, but I think the confusion arises from the fact that you cannot detract 16 % from the increased range and get the original range (1,16 * 100 = 116, but (1-0,16) * 116 = 97,44 =/= 100). 

That's why I thought it might not be as linear, because it's the only explanation I can think of why the range module is a deciding factor in all of this.

[anonym_gxxGX7KaxQVa]

Interesting...

 

So here's my take on it. The gun range module improves the firing range by 16 % while the accuracy module decreases the dispersion by 7 %. Let's define normal dispersion as X. The resulting dispersion will then be:

• With accuracy module: X * 0,93 = 0,93X
• With both modules at maximum range: X * 0,93 * 1,16 = 1,0788X
• With both modules at normal range: 1,0788X * (1/1,16) = 0,93X

 

So there is no increase (unless the range module does not increase zone of improved accuracy which then means that you will get a slight improvement). Since I do not have the calculations of said streamer, I cannot know for sure, but I think the confusion arises from the fact that you cannot detract 16 % from the increased range and get the original range (1,16 * 100 = 116, but (1-0,16) * 116 = 97,44 =/= 100).

 

ah damn, i've been Ninja'd  yes, i kept thinking about it after my post an hour ago, and i came to the same conclusion.

 

So long story short, this basically all hinges on how the Accuracy Increase module works:

-do we know for sure the 7% Bonus scales when you aim closer than max range? (in that case, No Bonus from the extra range module as said in quote)

-or does the 7% Bonus calculated from the max range then fixed? (ie: lets say for exemple 7% of max dispersion gives you -30m dispersion, and game then always applies this fixed -30m bonus even at closer range)

 

 

Basically, as long as we arn't able to ask WG team how the 7% Bonus applies exactly (or someone datamines the dispersion formula somehow), we're stuck, and can't know for sure wether it works or not...

 

 

(tough personally i'd tend to agree with Kartoffelmos: i think the 7% scales with range, therefore no bonus from extra accuracy module)

[LordMeru]

 

ah damn, i've been Ninja'd  yes, i kept thinking about it after my post an hour ago, and i came to the same conclusion.

 

So long story short, this basically all hinges on how the Accuracy Increase module works:

-do we know for sure the 7% Bonus scales when you aim closer than max range? (in that case, No Bonus from the extra range module as said in quote)

-or does the 7% Bonus calculated from the max range then fixed? (ie: lets say for exemple 7% of max dispersion gives you -30m dispersion, and game then always applies this fixed -30m bonus even at closer range)

 

 

Basically, as long as we arn't able to ask WG team how the 7% Bonus applies exactly (or someone datamines the dispersion formula somehow), we're stuck, and can't know for sure wether it works or not...

 

 

(tough personally i'd tend to agree with Kartoffelmos: i think the 7% scales with range, therefore no bonus from extra accuracy module)

 

If the dispersion grow linear with the range (from 0 m at 0 km to the value show in the client at max range), and we are not sure about this but lets take it for the following example :

We define:

C = the gun

CA = max range

AB = disp/2

 

Now look at the angle Y, we have

tan(Y) = AB/CA = disp/(2*max range)

 

With both modules we have:

C = the gun

CA = max range * 1.16

AB = disp/2 * 0.93

So the new angle Y' will be

 tan(Y') = AB/CA = 0.93*disp/(2*max range*1.16) = 0.8 disp/(2*max range)

this will give tan(Y') = 0.8 tan(Y) so Y' < Y ) with both angles from 0° to 90°.

 

If we use the same argument with only one modules we have the following coefficient :

Accuracy only 0.93

Range only 0.86

Both module 0.80

 

So with both modules we have the best accuracy but it seems the range module alone work better than the accuracy one (and give range too).

 

 

[RichardNixon]

Basically, as long as we arn't able to ask WG team how the 7% Bonus applies exactly (or someone datamines the dispersion formula somehow), we're stuck, and can't know for sure wether it works or not...

 

Ok, there are two values for horizontal dispersion per ship (well, per turret, but they're always the same). One for dispersion at 0km range, and one for dispersion at 30km (not maximum range). The horizontal dispersion at any other range is linearly interpolated from those values. You can calculate the "maximum dispersion" values in the client with this rule, so it's almost certainly correct.

 

The 0.93 multiplier from the fire control module probably only affects the 30km dispersion value, not the 0km dispersion value, as it's named accordingly. If that's correct, the accuracy at short ranges should be largely unaffected, while the dispersion reduction beyond 30km (possible in Yamato) may be greater than 7%.

 

The range module should have no effect on horizontal dispersion at any range, but it's likely that vertical dispersion depends on maximum range, and so the range module may well have a positive effect on vertical accuracy. I have a theory for exactly how vertical dispersion is calculated, but it's likely to remain a theory as vertical dispersion is so difficult to test accurately.

 

Edit: There may be some additional effects in the Yamato because it can shoot beyond the 30km mark, and the interpolation may not handle that correctly. If so, this is probably not working as intended.

 

[Sander93]

I think they try to achieve something like this:   (pro paint skillz ^^)

 

So with range and accuracy upgrade they can achieve smaller dispersion at range X when compared to the stock ship.

 

Edit: to clarify just in case: red is the "dispersion circle" (call it what you want) in which the shells should fall inside. So you can see with those green lines what is the dispersion at certain ranges.

 

Legit question: why are we assuming the dispersion at the new max range is a 'random' new value and not proportionate to the standard max range's value? Assuming you'd use the accuracy module in both ranges. Shouldn't the dispersion at new range simply be an extension of the old value, like I'll show below? I suppose you could test this by comparing the Iowa and the Montana. Montana has slightly more ranges and slighty higher dispersion. However I don't have access to the game right now. 

 

 

 

 

[XTHD]

The maths that those muricans used is incorrect, because it assumes that the dispersion is 0 at point blank range. It isn't though, it is calculated differently below and above about 4km, and it wasn't even back when it was linear all the way from max to zero range.

[Poster_2015]

Since i just posted in a different topic. The dispersion values are not a secret, and they all follow simple formula 

 

Dispersion = X+Y*Distance

 

X and Y are constant for every branch of ships (cruisers/dds/bbs) and Nation .

 

First ill address the topic they made a simple error in their math. They checked the dispersion after mounting range module is  X+Y*1.16*distance and then assumed that they can divide it by 1.16 to shoot at same range. Which means they assumed it would be X/1.16 +Y*distance. Its not however. Like someone said their error lies in assuming that dispersion is 0 at 0 range which is obvious (and painfully so).

 

Now the "meat" the dispersion for the nations classes is as follows - note that CRUISERS at tier 2 or 1 use DESTROYER dispersion value. 

 

Japan

Battleships = 85m+0.00725*distance in meters

USA

Battleships = 50m+0.01*distance in meters

ALL nations

Destroyers + Cruisers tier 1/2 = 15m+0.0075*distance in meters

Cruisers tier 3-10 = 35m +0.00675*distance in meters

 

EDIT: Im pretty sure the dispersion is calculated in same way across all ranges (but not 100%). The confusion comes from one patch notes where they said "reduced dispersion below 4km, and increased above 4km" - when in reality they just reduced the constant in the formulas and increase the ratio (with the goal of keeping 4km dispersion roughly the same while increasing it above and lowering it below).

 

 

 

[Crooq_Lionfang]

Interesting numbers. Curious what the German dispersion formula is going to be, one BB alone isn't enough to calculate it

[Poster_2015]

Well hopefully some dataminer can come up here with the data, atm it seems tirpitz follows 100+0.00825 to my observations - but until datamine can confirm it , its just speculation.

[RichardNixon]

Datamine for horizontal dispersion:

 

US BB: 60m @ 0km, 360m @ 30km

IJN BB: 84m @ 0km, 300m @ 30km

Nearly all cruisers: 33m @ 0km, 240m @ 30km

DDs and a few cruisers: 15m @ 0km, 240m @ 30km

 

Tirpitz: 66m @ 0km, 360m @ 30km

Warspite: 51m @ 0km, 360m @ 30km

 

Dispersion tapers to zero below a ship-specific distance, usually 3-4km. BBs also vary substantially on distribution within the dispersion radius (sigma parameter) and vertical dispersion (probably).