Spotting Damage - only in WoT, NOT in WoWS

[SFCGunny313]

This has bothered me since the early Closed Beta testing.  World of Warships is the latest entry in the Wargaming suite of games.

 

World of Tanks has spotting damage, to include, several missions which require spotting damage to succeed.

 

 

Many of us notice, and frequently complain, about players who decide to stay on the back line of the map and wait....for those of us who play DDs and CAs, who put our own match at risk of a quick end by spotting and lighting up the enemy fleet so the back line players can get the damage shots....what do we get for it?

 

Do the developers really intend for battles to remain as they are?  It should be a relatively easy programming fix to reward players for spotting damage.  I'd even go so far as to reward CV players (although on a reduced spotting damage percentage) for spotting enemy ships.

 

Come on now, it's not that hard to do - and you already do it in WoT...so what are you waiting for?  Add a spotting damage game mechanic into WoWS!

[Tyrendian89]

DDs earn plenty enough XP via capping as is, and CVs (if they've got the brains to not go Fighter setup) get plenty via doing damage. Don't really see the need. Also, has been discussed to death, back to life, and right back to death again, including WG statements.

[StringWitch]

 

8. Why does spotting not reward xp or credits? If this mechanics was introduced, you could lower DD’s and CV’s torpedo damage and they would still get the same amount of xp and credits due to spotting.

A. Because, currently, the game doesn’t need such mechanics. The development of spotting (and tanking) mechanics is on our plans, but our long-term plans. At the moment, our priority is to solve the current shortcomings of the game.

http://thearmoredpatrol.com/2016/04/03/qa-3rd-april-2016/

 

[SFCGunny313]

Capping??!!  Really - capping?  Sorry, I'm not one of those players that rushes my DD into the cap circle for XP...

 

 

And as I'm sure you've seen, the vast majority of CV players in the US line go 2 fighter/1bomber loadout at mid-tiers...and very very few of them bother to read anything in the forums to learn.

[Penguin_Sentinel]

Might be worth seeing if it works via the test server some time. I don't recall this ever being trialed during CBT.

[SFCGunny313]

@StringWitch - thanks for the link for the Q&A

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

it would be to easy , go with cv and u can spot entire map , nah not need in this game lol

[Tyrendian89]

Capping??!!  Really - capping?  Sorry, I'm not one of those players that rushes my DD into the cap circle for XP...

 

 

 

 

so, in short, you neither want your team to win the match nor yourself to gain XP? Bit of a strange attitude if I may say so...

[Risalan]

8. Why does spotting not reward xp or credits? If this mechanics was introduced, you could lower DD’s and CV’s torpedo damage and they would still get the same amount of xp and credits due to spotting.

A. Because, currently, the game doesn’t need such mechanics. The development of spotting (and tanking) mechanics is on our plans, but our long-term plans. At the moment, our priority is to solve the current shortcomings of the game.

http://thearmoredpatrol.com/2016/04/03/qa-3rd-april-2016/

 

I disagree (kagero 92" reload, fubuki 82" ) spotting XP will be an incentive to active scout between torp launching, otherwise it's hit and run and long range torp launching.

[typhaon]

I guess they didn't introduce it, since the simple spotting mechanics in the game make it really easy to spot without being spotted.

As a DD, you spot most ships most of the time, with DDs being the exception. So there's no real skill required except for staying far aways from the enemy.

DDs could earn plenty of XP and credits without doing anything special.

The second thing is, that many ships are spotted either before they shoot or right after they shoot. Only a few DDs can really do stealth shooting, so most of the time, shooters spot the targets themselves... and the DD woulg gain nothing.

[RamirezKurita]

I do think that they should add spotting experience, if only for the simple reason that it would factor in another method of contributing to victory. Currently, players are sometimes faced with the choice of whether to try to win or whether to go for XP, which is a really bad option to give in a competitive game as it can cause players to do counterproductive things for selfish gain, but factoring in spotting as a source of XP would encourage players to do things to help their team rather than taking the selfish option.

[JackNastyface]

I got called some dreadful names in Cyrillic from a team member for passive lighting 3 enemy t5 BB's on an open section of sea in my Clemson. Was only after the battle I realised I'd earned squat for my efforts and he was probably right. 

[BillydSquid]

It is desperately needed in the game, the lack of it has given rise to damage whore behaviour from DDs and CVs. Why bother to spot enemy DDs for your CAs when it provides no beneficial xp or money? So the worst players rush off to try and sink the nearest BB or CA    leaving their CAs completely unguarded and invisible spotted by enemy DDs which are playing properly and the CAs then get obliterated by focus fire, as such, due to their large citadel every high tier CA dares not push given they'll be dead in minutes or crippled by enemy fire or invisible torp walls. Hence the behaviour that high tier sees, where enemy CAs rarely support DDs in the initial push as they don't know if that random person is going to piss off and try and take out s BB or do his job and spot for his team in the openings stages of the battle.

 

DDs come into their own in the late stages when there are holes in the enemy line and isolated BBs, currently almost every DD I encounter at high tier acts like s damage whore and hamstrings the supporting CA in the process. Unsurprisingly given spotting is a fruitless task and unsurprisingly CAs refuse to provide support for fear of getting slapped with a 160k repair bill. 

 

Cvs well how many Cvs at high tier have people encountered that actually use a fighter set up? Almost every single game the first wave of aircraft will bum rush the enemy carrier and leave your BBs and CAs completely lacking fighter cover from the enemy CV and completely lacking spotting ability vs enemy DDs. Frankly I can't blame them, spot a DD or send a torp bomber squadron against a BB no contest, they'll go for the BB 90% of the time. 

 

As as a result CAs are once again screwed as the ability to function as a DD deterant st high tiers is completely wrecked and there is no incentive for a CA to play in a way which will get him killed incredibly quickly, also good luck trying to spot torp walls from shimis with no CV support. Again do I blame CVs? Maybe, but would I want the fruitless task of parking a fighter over a DD's head all match? No. I don't like playing human shield for my teams BBs vs torp walls and DDs, and I tend to react badly when BBs jump on chat to piss and moan about CA support. I think CVs and DDs feel the same way when it comes to providing a crucial, at times dangerous and completely fruitless task of spotting

 

Honestly if WG can't see the negative impact of how this affects high tier game play in particular, then I question whether they know their head from their arse regarding the current state of T8+ game meta.

[shulzidar]

To put an analogy on why spoting is not rewarded on WoWS...

 

...How many players will spot on WoT if...

 

...Each light tank came with the FV215b 183mm gun?

 

The deal in WoWS is that EACH class is capable of doing considerable damage to the others... There aren't DEDICATED spotting vehicles with weak combat performance.

 

Some ppl refer DDs as "cappers" and thus capable of "accumulating Cap XP" but they fail to realize that when WG introduced capping rewards ALSO rewarded Capping Resets, which, again, all classes can participate into...

 

...Spotting XP contribution would be accumulated without too much effort by DD Commanders... In the case of CV it would require a change on tactics and loadouts that will certainly have an impact on the damage department so for them it would make sense... But BBs and CAs are definitively out of this gameplay. WG could nerf XP earned per damage applied on DD to encourage them to always get a good dose of "spotting XP" but, the problem is that to balance this "Damage XP nerf", FIRST they need to have their base damage under control...

 

...If you have been paying attention to the string of CV changes, you could understand that the game is still not at that point. WG first need to balance the basic elements before going too deep with extra reward mechanics that, to balance between classes, should affect damage-based XP contributions.

[Risalan]

I guess they didn't introduce it, since the simple spotting mechanics in the game make it really easy to spot without being spotted.

As a DD, you spot most ships most of the time, with DDs being the exception. So there's no real skill required except for staying far aways from the enemy.

DDs could earn plenty of XP and credits without doing anything special.

The second thing is, that many ships are spotted either before they shoot or right after they shoot. Only a few DDs can really do stealth shooting, so most of the time, shooters spot the targets themselves... and the DD woulg gain nothing.

 

It's the same in wot, go behind a bush and do nothing and get spotting XP.

 

I think the main reason to not put spotting XP in the game it's DDs infestation, until the can reduce the number of DDs per battle they will not put spotting XP in the game, but it's needed for the good of the game.

 

(The solution to DDs infestation it's simple, no more than X DDs per battle, they did it with CVs, today no more than 2 per side, I saw 4 CVs in one side in early days)

[RamirezKurita]

(The solution to DDs infestation it's simple, no more than X DDs per battle, they did it with CVs, today no more than 2 per side, I saw 4 CVs in one side in early days)

 

Limiting destroyers doesn't fix the problem, it only hides it. They need to add more methods to deal with destroyers for other ship classes (radar for cruisers is a step in the right direction) as well as getting more carriers into games; currently the problem is that, other than the practically non-existent carriers, the best counter for destroyers are other destroyers, so the meta adjusts to having lots of destroyers by even more people playing as destroyers, which in turn causes a positive feedback loop until there's far too many destroyers. If there were better methods of hunting destroyers, then we would see people sailing around in anti-destroyer equipped ships rather than hopping into destroyers themselves.

[Risalan]

 

Limiting destroyers doesn't fix the problem, it only hides it. They need to add more methods to deal with destroyers for other ship classes (radar for cruisers is a step in the right direction) as well as getting more carriers into games; currently the problem is that, other than the practically non-existent carriers, the best counter for destroyers are other destroyers, so the meta adjusts to having lots of destroyers by even more people playing as destroyers, which in turn causes a positive feedback loop until there's far too many destroyers. If there were better methods of hunting destroyers, then we would see people sailing around in anti-destroyer equipped ships rather than hopping into destroyers themselves.

 

2 DDs in a game each side it's not a problem 5 each side it's

[BillydSquid]

To put an analogy on why spoting is not rewarded on WoWS...

 

...How many players will spot on WoT if...

 

...Each light tank came with the FV215b 183mm gun?

 

The deal in WoWS is that EACH class is capable of doing considerable damage to the others... There aren't DEDICATED spotting vehicles with weak combat performance.

 

Some ppl refer DDs as "cappers" and thus capable of "accumulating Cap XP" but they fail to realize that when WG introduced capping rewards ALSO rewarded Capping Resets, which, again, all classes can participate into...

 

...Spotting XP contribution would be accumulated without too much effort by DD Commanders... In the case of CV it would require a change on tactics and loadouts that will certainly have an impact on the damage department so for them it would make sense... But BBs and CAs are definitively out of this gameplay. WG could nerf XP earned per damage applied on DD to encourage them to always get a good dose of "spotting XP" but, the problem is that to balance this "Damage XP nerf", FIRST they need to have their base damage under control...

 

...If you have been paying attention to the string of CV changes, you could understand that the game is still not at that point. WG first need to balance the basic elements before going too deep with extra reward mechanics that, to balance between classes, should affect damage-based XP contributions.

 

Exactly, which is why when WG says it uses a hard counter system or rock, paper, scissors for counters it's a system doomed to failure. If the hard counter system applied the CAs would immediately counter any DD in the vicinity. They don't. At T8+ not even close, given that the detection mechanics are currently stacked in favour of DDs and the only way high tier CAs survive is to decrease detection as much as possible. See the Zao spec'd for max concealment spamming HE shells. Radars as a step in the right direction, but there's more to be done to adjust tactics used by DDs and Cvs as a matter of course.

 

Now you you put aT8 CA against a T8 BB like the CA is going to be on the back fot, it can certainly cause damage, but 3/4K damage per salvo from a Hp if 70k on a  Tirpitz? The CA is going to be on the back foot. DDs do not function as light tanks, they are playing an entirely different roles in WoW, more akin to a tank destroyer than a light scout tank. 

 

Spotting is not a straight line  reward like capping, that's simply shortsighted. Keeping an enemy spotted for  a period of time, each second earning xp capped at 20 seconds, like standard detection mechanics pushes DDs and CVs to keep that target spotted, of course you'd need to cap the number of times a ship is detected by a player either by time or the number of times and adjust the xp CVs and  DDs receive from damage vs the xp from spotting. 

 

Frankly the the game is going to be a long way off from "balance" simply nerfing and buffing damage solves nothing but shifting the game meta to another class which gives the greatest returns. It happened with CVs which got nerfd into the ground, as a result of the hard counter system DDs became the next go to class. It's the same behaviour, the only way to currently earn xp is to cause damage, so rebalancing for damage is a cyclical problem that will never be solved. Currently DDs are the go to class as it's easiest in T8+ to cause heavy damage compared to the repair cost risk. 

 

Its as as I explained, why do DDs and CVs behave the way they do in so many cases? Because the only way to earn xp is to cause damage. It's not a stretch to see why WG added cap xp and decap xp, without it games would be a simple slugging match with no encouragement for DDs or CAs to risk a cap. It's a extremely shallow tactical situation, there is currently no reason to spot for the vast majority or random players outside those that play teams or division up. That has to change ASAP for the game to improve, it won't, regardless of the number of new lines they add as the actual diversity or how to play the game remains restricted severely by the current mechanics.  

[BillydSquid]

 

2 DDs in a game each side it's not a problem 5 each side it's

 

it still doesn't fix the problem. Radar was a step in the right direction, capping will simply cause the same issue that capping caused with CVs, the heigh tier DD population got completely out of control, capping does not actually address the underlying problem of the lack of effective counters in the hard counter system. Adjusting game mechanics to encourage a certain type of behaviour while buffing the supposed counter like CAs were with Radar, reducing the citadel size would help them survive BB sniping and encourage them to support DDs if spitting mechanics are included. 

 

But CA buffs need to go hand in hand with spotting mechanics as gunboat DDs will still be the foremost counter to torpedo boats, I as a CA want to support a gunboat DD as much as possible as dealing with a shiny is going to be a pain, an enemy CA wants to destroy that gunboat as that torpedo boat is an asset vs BBs late game. 

 

Id put money on the fact that if you include xp rewards for spotting more DDs would spot and there'd be lower levels of damage whoring in the game. 

[shulzidar]

Spotting is not a straight line  reward like capping, that's simply shortsighted. Keeping an enemy spotted for  a period of time, each second earning xp capped at 20 seconds, like standard detection mechanics pushes DDs and CVs to keep that target spotted, of course you'd need to cap the number of times a ship is detected by a player either by time or the number of times and adjust the xp CVs and  DDs receive from damage vs the xp from spotting. 

 

The issue is that currently... Spotting happens automatically and effortlessly by playing regularly as a DDs... NOT FOCUSING on it. On WoT, a proper scout, has to play in a certain way to focus on spotting (The most important part of it is NOT SHOOTING). That's the key... First you need to be sure you are rewarding some attitudes... Not just adding an extra contibution that simply happens automatically while doing something else. Some ppl seems confused on this same thread and thinks that "spotting as DD" is about getting dangerously close to the enemy DD screen... Not at all, the VAST MAJORITY of detection time (and damage you are helping your team doing) it's the simple fact that you are the closest spotter for long range fire on enemy CAs & BBs... It's low risk and you do it simply because you are trying to attack those same targets.... If you compare with the brief time you spend detecting DDs, even if you try on purpose,... It's infinitesimal because in either case, by the nature of the class itself, a DD that's visible for too long is a sank DD...

 

...You could, OFC, create even more complex reward mechanism were, for example, keeping an enemy DD or CV spotted is more valuable per unit of time than CA or BBs...

 

...But you know how all this sound in the ears of a WG Developer? More things to keep updated while we are still tunning the basics.

 

What I'm detecting in some of this threads is just another excuse to ask for a nerf into DD damage capabilities to "compensate" secondary extra earnings... Following the WoT analogy, to effectively turn DDs from TDs into LTs.

 

Currently DDs are the go to class as it's easiest in T8+ to cause heavy damage compared to the repair cost risk.

 

I wonder why ppl keep repeating this mantra over... and over... and over... While ALL stats say exactly the opposite... I know that all DD haters really would like this to be true... But numbers is what WG is paying attention to... And the difference is BRUTAL and not favoring DDs... So any reassoning "born" from this "wishes" can't be taken as a base of anything.

[ghostbuster_]

This has bothered me since the early Closed Beta testing.  World of Warships is the latest entry in the Wargaming suite of games.

 

World of Tanks has spotting damage, to include, several missions which require spotting damage to succeed.

 

 

Many of us notice, and frequently complain, about players who decide to stay on the back line of the map and wait....for those of us who play DDs and CAs, who put our own match at risk of a quick end by spotting and lighting up the enemy fleet so the back line players can get the damage shots....what do we get for it?

 

 

Do the developers really intend for battles to remain as they are?  It should be a relatively easy programming fix to reward players for spotting damage.  I'd even go so far as to reward CV players (although on a reduced spotting damage percentage) for spotting enemy ships.

 

 

Come on now, it's not that hard to do - and you already do it in WoT...so what are you waiting for?  Add a spotting damage game mechanic into WoWS!

Spotting damage also spottung xp and credits. For what? To have more people grinding the DDs? Its already very easy to grind DDs, expecially the IJP line. Spoting is one of the main duties of dds. There is no need to give a reward them for doing their job. 

[RamirezKurita]

Spotting is not a straight line  reward like capping, that's simply shortsighted. Keeping an enemy spotted for  a period of time, each second earning xp capped at 20 seconds, like standard detection mechanics pushes DDs and CVs to keep that target spotted, of course you'd need to cap the number of times a ship is detected by a player either by time or the number of times and adjust the xp CVs and  DDs receive from damage vs the xp from spotting. 

 

The issue is that currently... Spotting happens automatically and effortlessly by playing regularly as a DDs... NOT FOCUSING on it. On WoT, a proper scout, has to play in a certain way to focus on spotting (The most important part of it is NOT SHOOTING). That's the key... First you need to be sure you are rewarding some attitudes... Not just adding an extra contibution that simply happens automatically while doing something else. Some ppl seems confused on this same thread and thinks that "spotting as DD" is about getting dangerously close to the enemy DD screen... Not at all, the VAST MAJORITY of detection time (and damage you are helping your team doing) it's the simple fact that you are the closest spotter for long range fire on enemy CAs & BBs... It's low risk and you do it simply because you are trying to attack those same targets.... If you compare with the brief time you spend detecting DDs, even if you try on purpose,... It's infinitesimal because in either case, by the nature of the class itself, a DD that's visible for too long is a sank DD...

 

...You could, OFC, create even more complex reward mechanism were, for example, keeping an enemy DD or CV spotted is more valuable per unit of time than CA or BBs...

 

 

 

This is why my main suggestion for spotting is to make it not dependent on time or anything like that, but the damage dealt by allies. Basically, if a ship cannot personally see their target and are instead relying on allies spotting for them, then a percentage (say, 10-15%) of all XP and credits they get for the damage instead is distributed between all the allies that can see the target. It would encourage spotting priority targets that are then focused, rather than just hovering around trying to farm XP, as well as it would make it impossible to "steal" XP with spotting as you would only get the XP if the firing ship cannot personally see their target.

 

 

2 DDs in a game each side it's not a problem 5 each side it's

 

No, it's simply less of a problem, but the problem still exists. The fundamental problem is that they best counter to destroyers are other destroyers, which still leaves the problem where the rest of the team are mostly irrelevant as they still rely mostly on their allied destroyers to take down enemy destroyers. If they actually fixed the real problem, the lack of counter options to deal with destroyers, then having several destroyers a team (or even several destroyers on one team and very few on the other) wouldn't be a problem as every team would have methods of deal with them.

 

Spotting damage also spottung xp and credits. For what? To have more people grinding the DDs? Its already very easy to grind DDs, expecially the IJP line. Spoting is one of the main duties of dds. There is no need to give a reward them for doing their job. 

 

 

It would probably actually reward carriers more than destroyers, particularly carriers that actually put effort into spotting destroyers.

[shulzidar]

This is why my main suggestion for spotting is to make it not dependent on time or anything like that, but the damage dealt by allies. Basically, if a ship cannot personally see their target and are instead relying on allies spotting for them, then a percentage (say, 10-15%) of all XP and credits they get for the damage instead is distributed between all the allies that can see the target. It would encourage spotting priority targets that are then focused, rather than just hovering around trying to farm XP, as well as it would make it impossible to "steal" XP with spotting as you would only get the XP if the firing ship cannot personally see their target.

 

That's how it works on WoT... And the switch from time units to damage applied... Will even be a worser move...

 

...Keeping a BB spotted will net around 4 times the damage applied than on a DD at the same tier with next to none risk... Again, you can add complexity by using RELATIVE HP loss making DDs more valuable to spot for damage... And again you will not solve anything as the issue comes from a simple fact... Spotting BBs & CAs is trivial WHILE you also do damage to them... Meanwhile going after other DDs is a risky bussiness that, even done properly, doesn't last too much and usually prevents the spotter DD from using its torps properly...

 

...Don't take me wrong, there are already plenty of players (like me) that even commanding an IJN DD consider a tactical priority detect and even engage enemy DDs that are operating near, and we do it risking been sank and not been particularly rewarded ATM... Because we know it helps winning the battle, if done at the right time.

 

At the end of the day is the same that happens to BB "tanks"... They win battles but the earnings go for the "snipers" on the back that take the distraction the "tank" provides to score some juicy citadels...

 

...It's old as oaks, there is ppl that plays to win... And ppl that plays to farm.

 

How can you reward them WITHOUT opening the road to even more silly ways to play that will create unhealthy metaplay "tactics"? How to build such necesarily complex solutions, while you are still finishing base aspects of the classes?

[FaceFisted]

And as I'm sure you've seen, the vast majority of CV players in the US line go 2 fighter/1bomber loadout at mid-tiers...and very very few of them bother to read anything in the forums to learn.

 

What's wrong with that setup? It's quite annoying for enemy team since it denies their CVs and provides spotting and everyone loves you in your own team when you effectively guard them from torpedo bombers.

 

Spotting damage should be present as well as increased xp and credit gain from shooting down planes.

[ApesTogetherStronK]

I wonder why ppl keep repeating this mantra over... and over... and over... While ALL stats say exactly the opposite... I know that all DD haters really would like this to be true... But numbers is what WG is paying attention to... And the difference is BRUTAL and not favoring DDs... So any reassoning "born" from this "wishes" can't be taken as a base of anything.

 

I can easily score 100k+ damage in a Mutsuki every game...if an enemy DD doesn't lock me down. Then I do very little damage. That's why average damage is so low, there are more gunboat DD classes than torpedo boat ones, so DD's get locked down more often than not by other DD's. If not, they do have the highest consistent damage potential. Key word here being potential. Averages mean nothing in this case, only that some games DD's will go up fast because of a good team, and in the other case they will be left be to release torps again and again because of a lemon team. It's rare to achieve a middle ground with them, just one extreme or another.