Warspite's Armour...

[marianc5]

 

Not sure which timeframe you mean by "last months". AA guns have been recalculated and released in patch 0.5.3 in February.

For some more background, you may want to check the patch FAQ http://worldofwarships.eu/en/news/updates/Update-053-FAQ/#aa and release notes which you can still find on the WoWS newspage.

 

+1

[Sea_viper]

 

The problem is that Warspite and all the WWI British ships including Hood are from before they switched to the American all or nothing style of protection. As a result the armour is spread out and not concentrated around the vitals.

 

You are right about the all or nothing armour scheme, but the same sort of penertration can also happen to NM. I think the armour bulkhead of  NM is about 10 inch thick IIRC. So NM would also be better off angling with around 30 deg

[carvillan]

I just can;t win in the ship...I love it to bits but if you see my record in New York and New Mexico, Warpsite is nowhere hear in comparison

 

[creamgravy]

 

So, why has Warspite got no armour (6mm) in the middle?? (hanger deck area to rear guns) http://gamemodels3d.com/worldofwarships/vehicles/pbsb002 (click armour model)

 

I guess this is why you die as soon as you show the rear of the ship.

[xCaptainObviousx]

 

So, why has Warspite got no armour (6mm) in the middle?? (hanger deck area to rear guns) http://gamemodels3d.com/worldofwarships/vehicles/pbsb002 (click armour model)

 

I guess this is why you die as soon as you show the rear of the ship.

 

I think gamemodels3d requires you to pay to access t6+ material, you may want to post a screenshot for other forumers.

[Exocet6951]

 

So, why has Warspite got no armour (6mm) in the middle?? (hanger deck area to rear guns) http://gamemodels3d.com/worldofwarships/vehicles/pbsb002 (click armour model)

 

I guess this is why you die as soon as you show the rear of the ship.

 

The 6mm you are talking about is above the main deck, between the bridge and rear turrets.

It's superstructure, and there's very probably the 38mm deck armor right underneath it.

 

At best, it's completely irrelevant, at worst it's a part of the ship that will catch a shell and deal overpenetration.damage or some HE damage, which wouldn't even damage any secondaries/AA guns, by the way.

 

 

 

I think gamemodels3d requires you to pay to access t6+ material, you may want to post a screenshot for other forumers.

 

It still shows tier6 vehicles for free.

[creamgravy]

 

The 6mm you are talking about is above the main deck, between the bridge and rear turrets.

It's superstructure, and there's very probably the 38mm deck armor right underneath it.

 

I'm sure there's a few layers underneath but we all know how that can work... (Furutaka!) 

 

Next time I see Warspite in a DD or cruiser I'll try AP/HE at that area, it's quite large. (AP into the superstructure kills a BB very quickly if it pens) 

 

It also might explain why Warspite burns very easily. HE hitting 6mm will do close to maximum damage and set lots of fires  (destroyers have 10mm superstructure armour)

 

 

or some HE damage, which wouldn't even damage any secondaries/AA guns

 

Secondary guns have 800 HP and AA modules have 200 HP. It's so low any random shell will destroy them if it gets a successful damage roll. 

 

This should change in 5.4.5 module damage overhaul. Hurray!!

[Mucker]

Hey guys, i think i stumbled over something in the armor layout of the Warspite, that may explain the excessive amount of damage taken frontally.

 

The picture on the top shows the position of the citadel viewed from the top. The bottom pic shows the 127 mm armor layer that acts as a "citadel roof" at both ends. The midship part is covered by a 89 mm "roof" which is not shown here.

As you can see, the most forward part of the citadell has no "roof" whatsoever.  

[creamgravy]

 

Interesting. Yeah, that small citadel area just gets 32mm + 25mm on top and 102mm around the side. It's similar to the

, so 12" guns can occasionally citadel the front.

 

Here's that armour section I think should be 6" rather than 6cm (or 16cm like all BB superstructure sections)

 

 

[Sea_viper]

That section was also named strangely, "wows_inner_ssc", what the hack was that? Isn't that a flight deck? (good luck mounting a catapult and a plane on 6mm of steel)  

But I don't really find the bow armor hole to be much of an issue. Since 32mm of armor will not be overmatch by anything except the Yammato. So if you get citadeled through the front, it will either be at longish range or you show too much of your sides.

[Unintentional_submarine]

It would require a seriously different 12 inch attack to get a frontal citadel on Warspite. A 12 inchers can't overmatch 25mm, so obviously can't overmatch 32mm. Thus the shell has to land with an angle that is greater than 30 degrees, which none of the 12 inchers ingame can do (most guns don't manage much more 25 degrees, the 12 inchers don't really get much at all). 14 inchers can't overmatch 25mm either. 15 and above can however, but they get foiled by the 32mm roof. Technically speaking those guns can overmatch the bow, then penetrate the frontal citadel armour, both the pikenosed and the flat armour, but that would require a pretty good range.

 

Annoying penetration hits would rather be the norm, and likely often mistaken for citadels.

[psl_58]

I think this is an issue with overpenetration. If a shell hits armor which is less than 1/14,3 of it's diameter, it will penetrate regardless of impact angle.

 

Warspite's bow has 25 mm of armor.

 

410 mm =  overmatches 28.7 mm armor

406 mm =  overmatches 28.4 mm armor

381 mm =  overmatches 26.6 mm armor

356 mm =  overmatches 24.9 mm armor 

 

As you can see, 16 and 15 inch shells will punch right through your bow and if the trajectory is right, into your citadel. 14 inch guns and smaller will not overmatch an thus ricochet due to the extreme impact angle.

So if you are engaging ships with 15 and 16 inch guns, don't sail straight to them, show much more of your side armor.

 

were on earth did you get that from?

[Mucker]

 

were on earth did you get that from?

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration_(WoWS)

[creamgravy]

Hey guys, i think i stumbled over something in the armor layout of the Warspite, that may explain the excessive amount of damage taken frontally.

 

A quick update.

 

From 1934-37 the deck armour was increased to 5" (127mm) over the magazines and 3.5" (89mm) over the citadel. This armour 'black hole' should be 89mm or 127mm if its part of the front turret magazine. Even 89mm should stop many WTF??? moments :p

 

Here's a pic with the missing citadel armour section.

 

Source: http://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail-page-2.asp?ship_id=HMS-Warspite-03

 

The 6mm section is still my main problem. Show your back to a Budyonny firing AP (or even HE) and you haven't got long to live. Angling makes FA difference like most cruisers and battleships. 4-8k salvos every 8 seconds at 16km is brutal.

 

Warspite: Never show your back, never point your ship straight at battleship guns.

[Gojuadorai]

intresting....

 

could someone whose able to speal russian report that in the oficcial .ru forums?

i guess this is the only way to get a official response (again)

since devs stated armor is right 

but youve prooven it is not....

[Sea_viper]

I checked he modules placements in the Warspite,and the magazine and shell room is safely under 127mm of armour, just that the citadel includes one more compartment infront of it too

[Sea_viper]

I checked the module placements in the Warspite,and the magazine and shell room is safely under 127mm of armour, just that the citadel includes one more compartment infront of it.

As for that 6mm, it is not that bad. The area will go black pretty quickly under sustained fire and there is 38mm just 1 deck below it. Not that I agree it should be 6mm though...

[creamgravy]

I'm going deep chaps!

 

Here's Warspites full armour layout (40lb = 1" or 25mm armour)

 

 

 

The 6mm top section should 25mm (4e or 40lb high tensile steel) It just isn't specifically listed on the cross section profile for C on the drawing but can be seen on B9/8. (The hanger also has 4e/25mm on the roof instead of 16mm but that's far less critical)

 

 

 

The exposed citadel area around the front turret is largely correct but something still feels dodgy.

 

 

51mm (2 x 4e) should be covering the front, where did 102mm (160lb) come from? (assuming gamemodels3d.com has correct values)

Should the WOWS citadel hit box be reduced to match the 4x armour line (25mm doubling) Is that where the 102mm armour should be? I currently don't know what that compartment it is or what 4x doubling armour means.

Did RN engineers really overlook this area for the 89mm citadel extension?

Anyway WG is going a great job and don't mind Warspite not getting looked at until the tech tree version is being developed. 

[Unintentional_submarine]

I have tried to find more specific images of the magazine location on Warspite, but unfortunately there aren't any that are easily obtainable it seems. The book series Anatomy of the Ship (the Battleship Warspite) might have some images or drawings, but unfortunately I don't have access to them.

 

The best we can do, which is at best flawed, is to look at the lowest of the plans and compare to the main deck plan. As we can see there is a trunk going down in the middle of the barbette, it isn't unreasonable to assume these are the hoist structures. In the lowest plan they terminate in a room, in the case of turret A, that does not extend forward of the angled armour of the barbette. If this is the powder magazine of A turret, then clearly the citadel shouldn't extend further ahead. Unfortunately we can't know if it is the powder magazine. It seems likely though.

[creamgravy]

The rooms are empty on the Queen Elizabeth turret model at the Imperial War Museum. They're don't look part of the magazine to me.... Surely the RN would've given that section 11c on 4e armour is it was important?

 

 

 

 

[Mucker]

If you select the 25 mm armor layer the citadel roof seems to be covered. However, if you do a mouseover on that part, nothing pops up. Maybe it's an optical illusion?  

[Unintentional_submarine]

The rooms are empty on the Queen Elizabeth turret model at the Imperial War Museum. They're don't look part of the magazine to me.... Surely the RN would've given that section 11c on 4e armour is it was important?

 

 

 

 

 

Normally I wouldn't put much stock into a picture of a model (these are often meant to give us a relatively broad picture of the insides), but it does correspond extremely well with the plans shown earlier. Thus I can only conclude that they are very much correct.

Hence, Warspite's citadel is too long by a rather fair bit, which is not only unfair due to the length and area that is dangerous, but also that there are now parts of the ship that aren't covered by proper protection as intended for the citadel area by the designers.

 

As to what those rooms might have been. Pumping rooms and stores most likely. The crew were generally berthed on the upper decks on most ships of those days. In fact when I looked for the more detailed plans for Warspite I came across this interesting cut-out drawing.

 

As we can see the 68, 69 and 70 which fit reasonable well to the empty rooms, are stores of various kinds.

 

I disregarded it because it was one of those 'broad picture' things, besides it didn't show anything relevant for this search.

[Ferry_25]

Now, I'm not so into all the technical stuff. I have the Warspite as well. IMO it's a either you love it or you hate it ship. I love it. It's just not "the standard BB' in the game. A brawler pur sang. It can take an unhumanly beating and still get away with it relatively minor damaged. When I angle (in any BB-BB encounter for that matter) I try never to be in a 90'position but making a bit larger/ smaller corner. like 80 - 100' IMO the shells have a better chance of bouncing that way. No doesn't work always but in most of the cases. When playing the Warpite I must muster up a lot of patience. It excells in the frontline but I must be careful not to rush in or be prioritised and be the "first blood victim" in no time. Wait and push when the rest does. And then rush to the absolute frontline. In the case of the Warspite the rule "the closer the better" goes double. You'll swat cruisers and especially DD's (when I'm in a DD I'll stay away from a Warspite as much as possible) over and over and ruining BB's days in 1 or 2 salvo's. As far as the "don't show your butt advice" I wouldn't know: Warspite is too slow to get away when in trouble. When in that situation I go full speed ahead to my certain death and trying to take with me as much as possible even trying to ram another BB so to keep the score even... 

 

Mighty Jingles has made a very good movie on YT about the Waspite. I can highly recommend watching it.

[creamgravy]

Spoiler

 

As we can see the 68, 69 and 70 which fit reasonable well to the empty rooms, are stores of various kinds.

 

I disregarded it because it was one of those 'broad picture' things, besides it didn't show anything relevant for this search.

 

Awesome illustration, thanks for posting it!

 

I think they just added the 4x and 4e(x2) walls together to create a 102mm section with a longer citadel box. They've done it to the stern section too but that's covered by heavier armour. Way too heavy in fact....

It's 127mm (11c on 4e) when it should be 64mm (9e) Ah ha, looks like a quick fudge for the longer citadel and they forgot to do it for the bow section? Makes sense.

 

Quick fix:

1. Buff 6mm deck armour to 25mm

2. Remove the 1mm armour sections (no idea what they are?)

3. Buff 25mm citadel roof armour at bow to 127mm (11c on 4e)  

 

Longer fix for the QE tech tree model:

1. Create new 4x (51mm) wall armour sections and reduce citadel hit box at stern and bow to those new boundaries.

2. Nerf stern and bow armour sections back to 9e (64mm) and 4e (25mm) 

3. Remove 102mm wall and replace with 51mm (4e on both sides)

 

 

[Xerkics]

I honestly think armour is fine but having to turn a lot makes you fight with only 2 guns a lot of the time since i stopped playing my warspite my WR has gone up by 2%