Crossing the T working as intended

[killer999death]

I believe most of you know what crossing the T formation is so I won't go explaining about it but what I will do is point out is how 'Crossing the T' in real life brings an advantage since all of your guns can fire at the enemy ship maximising the firepower potencial but in this ''great'' game it brings the exact opposite because:

-Your shots will miss because gun dispersion is too much to hit a ship sailing towards you

-Your shots will bounce because WoT armor mechanics  ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ 

-Your shots will do 1200 set damage if they hit and not bounce because, just because

-You actually present a bigger target to the enemy

-You will get blown to kingdom come by the 4 shells the enemy can fire because citadels, bro

- Logic ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

 

 

 

So yeah crossing the T worked in real and was a great advantage but in this game.....yeaaaaaahhhh~

[PzKpfwVIB]

Totally agree with you on this one  

 

[malcheus]

I thought crossing the T was more of an 1700's thing, before rotating turrets were invented...

[killer999death]

I thought crossing the T was more of an 1700's thing, before rotating turrets were invented...

 

Turrets on the back of the ship that is being crossed cannot fire forward so it has only 50% firepower versus the other ship that is using 100% of it's firepower.

 

Also most mentions of crossing the T come from 1905 on which is when rotating turrets were used. :T

 

[anonym_gxxGX7KaxQVa]

so what do you propose then ?

saying "that suckssss, why don't you do sumthing' about it ???" isn't good enough,you need to tell us what you ideas are to make it better

 

i mean i 100% agree that it's not realistic and i resent it a little bit sometimes too, but i don't exactly see how this could be fixed within what the game is now.

it whould take nothing short of a total rework of how the armor , penetration and shell ballistics models work and that is pretty much a non-starter: the game is too far along in developpement for that. not even mentionning that this could potentially change the entire gameplay drastically and potentially do more harm than good if such big changes were made.

 

it's a bit weird and counter intuitive but ultimately WOW is very much an Arcade game with an autenthicity flavor to it, but it's not a simulator and was never meant to be realistic. it's one of those weird "Game-y" elements you have to live with like destroyers having cloaking field generators that make them invisible at 6km or infinite torpedo ammo (when in real life they only carried enough ammo for 2 salvo at most).

 

it's nessesary to force balance between ships that weren't balanced in real life (a BB vs a DD for example) because each player can only control 1 single ship.

[malcheus]

 

Turrets on the back of the ship that is being crossed cannot fire forward so it has only 50% firepower versus the other ship that is using 100% of it's firepower.

 

Also most mentions of crossing the T come from 1905 on which is when rotating turrets were used. :T

 

 

I did some reading up, you are right, the tactic was mostly used in the early 1900's.

 

I think this doesn't happen in WoWs, because fleets never sail in a line toward the opponent. 

 

[EsaTuunanen]

I thought crossing the T was more of an 1700's thing, before rotating turrets were invented...

It was used still later because real life gunnery accuracy was nerfed compared to game.

Major part of it result of it being harder to get correct correct distance/range to target and then corect elevation for that than the easy part of azimuth/bearing to target.

And ship showing broadside was smaller target in that harder to get right direction with only ship's width to hit, which was what, 30, max 40 meters compared to length of 200+ meters.

 

Again in this game we have accurate range to target, range to aiming point with auto elevation for shells to hit at aimed distance.

[killer999death]

so what do you propose then ?

saying "that suckssss, why don't you do sumthing' about it ???" isn't good enough,you need to tell us what you ideas are to make it better

 

 

i mean i 100% agree that it's not realistic and i resent it a little bit sometimes too, but i don't exactly see how this could be fixed within what the game is now.

it whould take nothing short of a total rework of how the armor , penetration and shell ballistics models work and that is pretty much a non-starter: the game is too far along in developpement for that. not even mentionning that this could potentially change the entire gameplay drastically and potentially do more harm than good if such big changes were made.

 

 

it's a bit weird and counter intuitive but ultimately WOW is very much an Arcade game with an autenthicity flavor to it, but it's not a simulator and was never meant to be realistic. it's one of those weird "Game-y" elements you have to live with like destroyers having cloaking field generators that make them invisible at 6km or infinite torpedo ammo (when in real life they only carried enough ammo for 2 salvo at most).

 

it's nessesary to force balance between ships that weren't balanced in real life (a BB vs a DD for example) because each player can only control 1 single ship.

 

 

What can be done and what WG is willing to do only the devs know. Suggesting things the devs will just roll their eyes around and sigh is pointless but few points that should be done are perhaps:

 

- Hits to the bow of the ship should do more damage

- Hits to the tower should do more damage (I mean 41 cm shells are hitting the tower containing the control room and manning the captain etc and you do 1k damage atm!)

- Citadel penetrations should be less punishing in general.

 

-Perhaps a certain mechanic with which a player could select how guns fire, just like with torpedos a narrow and wide spread.  Narrow spread would allow to fire more accurate at ships that are sailing towards you and the wide spread would be better for mid ranges or when you can't get good shots you spray your shells at the target. Something that doesn't make fireing at a battleship sailing towards you and is 7KM away a complete lottery!

 

 

 

I think this doesn't happen in WoWs, because fleets never sail in a line toward the opponent. 

 

 

Have you been playing the game at all? Ships constantly sail directly towards or from the enemy that is shooting them to 1) present a smaller target 2) to dodge easier and 3) to minimize the chances of citadel penetrations or even to bounce shots.

 

It's happening a whole lot

 

 

[ColonelPete]

It still works, but it looks different in this game.

 

You are not supposed to sail in a line of battle, that is so 1905 or older.

You have to be closer together, meaning your "line" can be stacked with two or more ships.

That way you can concentrate more firepower than an enemy that is more spread out.

Each of your ships must be sure so use the appropriate angle vs the enemy.

 

For example.

If the enemy comes through B and your forces are concentrated around the mouth of the channel, you are crossing the T.

 

[malcheus]

 

 

Have you been playing the game at all? Ships constantly sail directly towards or from the enemy that is shooting them to 1) present a smaller target 2) to dodge easier and 3) to minimize the chances of citadel penetrations or even to bounce shots.

 

It's happening a whole lot

 

 

 

I know about angling.

Crossing the T is something other than angling. Single ships going one-on-one angle a lot, but crossing the T is abou lines of multiple ships crossing eachother, and I have never seen anything remotely like that being done in this game.

 

[BadGene616]

Please keep crossing the t.

 

It's delicious for damaging you.

[xCaptainObviousx]

I remember the "how to play" guide we got to read before the weekend test. It actually told us to use the crossing T when facing another ship.

 

That was before WG actually got around to add armor to the game so angle was irrelevant and "citadel hits" were very rare for some reason.

[1MajorKoenig]

so what do you propose then ?

saying "that suckssss, why don't you do sumthing' about it ???" isn't good enough,you need to tell us what you ideas are to make it better

 

 

i mean i 100% agree that it's not realistic and i resent it a little bit sometimes too, but i don't exactly see how this could be fixed within what the game is now.

it whould take nothing short of a total rework of how the armor , penetration and shell ballistics models work and that is pretty much a non-starter: the game is too far along in developpement for that. not even mentionning that this could potentially change the entire gameplay drastically and potentially do more harm than good if such big changes were made.

 

 

it's a bit weird and counter intuitive but ultimately WOW is very much an Arcade game with an autenthicity flavor to it, but it's not a simulator and was never meant to be realistic. it's one of those weird "Game-y" elements you have to live with like destroyers having cloaking field generators that make them invisible at 6km or infinite torpedo ammo (when in real life they only carried enough ammo for 2 salvo at most).

 

it's nessesary to force balance between ships that weren't balanced in real life (a BB vs a DD for example) because each player can only control 1 single ship.

 

I think the game mechanics puts far too much emphasis on armor angling. If you are Shooting into a ship heading straight into you it would be almost like a free shot in real live as armor tends to be thin in the sections you would hit (more so on a AoN ship). The Shell would fly through the ship and would do a whole lot of damage.

 

Not sure how exactly the armor is modelled in WoWs but it is apparently represented by 3d hitboxes. Totally agree to the OP that it feels just unrealistic having 2 BBs going head on. Would appreciate if BB fighting would feel a Little more realistic

[wongman66]

 

Turrets on the back of the ship that is being crossed cannot fire forward so it has only 50% firepower versus the other ship that is using 100% of it's firepower.

 

Also most mentions of crossing the T come from 1905 on which is when rotating turrets were used. :T

 

 

Leyte Gulf was the last time this tactic was used by battleships. The US bbs were across the line of the IJN bbs coming up Suragaio Strait and  never had a chance with superior radar directed guns at night. Plus under constant attack from dds and pt boats.

 

Nelson's tactic at Trafalgar was to deliberately be crossed and exposed the 2 RN lines of battle to a several hours of taking fire but the French/Spanish gunnery was poor so once RN breached the enemy battle line they could take the ships to port and starboard. And with enemy battle line broken into smaller pieces the RN easily crushed them along with superior gunnery.

 

I also agree it is counter intuitive that you can suffer more even though you can have more guns trained on your target. But it is unlikely to ever be changed for the game. It is what it is.

[OVanBruce]

As EsaTunaamen said, the real difficulty on getting a proper shooting solution for ships of that era was getting the correct distance to the target: usually the first shots in a gunnery duel fell either short or back from the target, this is why looking at your splashes was important, anyone that has read about the battle of Jutland knows this. This game, once you have locked on a target, inmediatly gives you the exact distance for your shots to hit where you want. We only need to get the correct bearing of the ship (AKA the correct lead).

 

There is another reason why crossing the T is so useless in this game and that is how sispersion works. In real life dispersion was decisively vertical, with shots most times going perfectly in line thanks to the rifled guns. Now, since you are sure your shells will move in the Y axis, a bigger target (the whole lenght of the ship) is easier to hit than an smaller (the width). This game adds a lot more horizontal dispersion compared to real life, which gives this shotgun feeling you see in low tier battleships.

 

So yeah. It's funny that right now the only mode in the game that stays close to reality it's the April Fools' because there angling doesn't matter.

[VC381]

May I remind the OP that crossing the T was a SQUADRON tactic, not an individual ship vs. ship tactic. The idea was all your line would blast the enemy lead ship to pieces when neither it nor the rear ships could return fire effectively, rinse and repeat, concentration of fire take out enemy line 1 by 1 with minimal return damage.

 

Also it's perfectly possible to hit and citadel people through the bow.

[RichardNixon]

Not sure how exactly the armor is modelled in WoWs but it is apparently represented by 3d hitboxes.

 

Armour is modelled in some detail, and quite realistically in most ways. The main difference is that shell overmatch is much weaker than it was in reality, and so heavy shells can bounce off relatively thin armour.

 

Also it's perfectly possible to hit and citadel people through the bow.

 

Depends on target ship and gun calibre. For example, a Warspite can penetrate a New Mexico's bow or deck at high angles, but another New Mexico or a Fuso cannot.

 

[RamirezKurita]

There's a few things they could work on to make crossing the T a more viable strategy.

 

Firstly, they could rework some of the penetration mechanics to reduce the effectiveness of taking hits on the bow.

 

Secondly, they could make losing turrets a more common occurence, so someone fighting bow-on would likely get their turrets taken out.

 

Thirdly, they could alter the dispersion circle. Normally, the dispersion is a very pronounced ellipse, with horizontal accuracy being significantly better than vertical accuracy (similar to the dispersion on dive bombers in-game); this could be implemented into the game to make it so in medium-long range duels many salvos would straddle on the broadside but plunging fire would reliably hit someone who is bow-on.

[anonym_EFwxJOPWzlER]

I thought crossing the T was more of an 1700's thing, before rotating turrets were invented...

 

Battle of Leyte Gulf was one of many that used this tactic

[VC381]

Thirdly, they could alter the dispersion circle. Normally, the dispersion is a very pronounced ellipse, with horizontal accuracy being significantly better than vertical accuracy (similar to the dispersion on dive bombers in-game); this could be implemented into the game to make it so in medium-long range duels many salvos would straddle on the broadside but plunging fire would reliably hit someone who is bow-on.

 

This is pretty crucial to the crossing the T mechanic and should be implemented, it's pretty sad it isn't.

 

Of course it depends on the weapon and target, didn't say otherwise, just pointing out it's possible. In fact, it should be easier to citadel a bow on target than an angled one, because their forward bulkhead is at 90 degrees to the line of fire (imagine it as a front belt).

 

The crossing still works in an HE spam duel, where volume of fire is more important than where on the target the shots land.

[praetor_jax]

 

 

The crossing still works in an HE spam duel, where volume of fire is more important than where on the target the shots land.

 

This is the important point.

In RL gun accuracy and hit rates were a lot worse than in WoWS - so bringing as many guns to bear as possible was the crucial part.

Crossing the T also works in this game at very high ranges, since plunging fire will ignore belt armor anyway and at that range actually hitting the target becomes more important than hitting the right spots.

At close range using your aromor or evading shots as well as proper aiming for good hits is more important than a few extra guns.

 

 

[Historynerd]

 

This is the important point.

In RL gun accuracy and hit rates were a lot worse than in WoWS - so bringing as many guns to bear as possible was the crucial part.

Crossing the T also works in this game at very high ranges, since plunging fire will ignore belt armor anyway and at that range actually hitting the target becomes more important than hitting the right spots.

At close range using your aromor or evading shots as well as proper aiming for good hits is more important than a few extra guns.

 

 

 

This. 

 

At Jutland, the reason why the German fleet had to withdraw twice in face of the "T" of the British ships was that the sheer number of guns pointed at them was such that it was certain that at least some of them would connect, even if any battleship's hit ratio wasn't much higher than 3% in any case.

In this game hitting the target isn't such a big problem.

[peoplescavalry]

At Jutland admiral Jellicoe managed to get 24 BBs across the T of the German fleet, which must have been some sight!

[RamirezKurita]

 

This is the important point.

In RL gun accuracy and hit rates were a lot worse than in WoWS - so bringing as many guns to bear as possible was the crucial part.

Crossing the T also works in this game at very high ranges, since plunging fire will ignore belt armor anyway and at that range actually hitting the target becomes more important than hitting the right spots.

At close range using your aromor or evading shots as well as proper aiming for good hits is more important than a few extra guns.

 

 

 

But WoWS has the problem that it doesn't really have long range duels as ranges in the game are arbitrarily capped. It's not until later tiers when you start to see battleships with very long ranges, while historically even the 14" guns on the Myogis/Kongos/Fusos were capable of shooting over 30 km. This both reduces the effect of plunging fire (as the high elevations on the guns aren't used) as well as the area saturation effects become less useful. The short ranges are even more limiting on secondary batteries, as they are mostly arranged on the sides of ships and would realistically would be capable of putting out a fair amount of extra firepower on the broadside (the IJN casemated secondaries had ranges of about 20 km), but their ranges are limited so much that they only open fire at suicidally short ranges (from the figures, I'd guess they are in-game limited to an elevation of up to +2 degrees, notably lower than their 20-35 degree elevations).

[praetor_jax]

 

But WoWS has the problem that it doesn't really have long range duels as ranges in the game are arbitrarily capped. It's not until later tiers when you start to see battleships with very long ranges, while historically even the 14" guns on the Myogis/Kongos/Fusos were capable of shooting over 30 km. This both reduces the effect of plunging fire (as the high elevations on the guns aren't used) as well as the area saturation effects become less useful. The short ranges are even more limiting on secondary batteries, as they are mostly arranged on the sides of ships and would realistically would be capable of putting out a fair amount of extra firepower on the broadside (the IJN casemated secondaries had ranges of about 20 km), but their ranges are limited so much that they only open fire at suicidally short ranges (from the figures, I'd guess they are in-game limited to an elevation of up to +2 degrees, notably lower than their 20-35 degree elevations).

 

Exactly, WoWS works under entirely different conditions than the RL ships did, so its not a big wonder that a tactic that was used in RL has almost no meaning here.

It may be disappointing to navy enthusiasts, but its not a simulation after all.