PROPOSAL: Full German Destroyer Line (DD)

[Comrad_StaIin]

tbh I would rather like to have the Z45 as TX

[1MajorKoenig]

Which one is stronger in your opinion: TB1916 or Raubtier? TB1916 Looks good on stats but Raubtier is newer and got an upgrade to G7 Torpedos if I remember correctly?

[Snowyskies]

Well although I have both at tier 4 in my list I do think Raubtier/Torpedoboot 1924 could potentially be more powerful all things considered and yes, I do believe the Raubtier ships got the G7a torpedo later. This is of course barring some fantasy upgrades to the Großes Torpedoboot 1916 class as I'd have to imagine that had they been left in German service they could have easily been upgraded to the new 128 mm guns which combined with an upgrade to G7a torpedoes would give you a pretty decent destroyer.

 

 

First let us look at the hulls themselves, the GTb1916 class is larger which means more hitpoints, but that should also mean a worse concealment value. I'd value concealment more, but let's call it a draw for now. They have around the same speed, 35 knots (I've seen values between 34 to 35,2 knots for Tb1924, 34,5 to 36,9 for GTb1916), which would presumably give the Tb1924 the manoeuvrability advantage as they should be be able to turn faster being shorter and lighter. So in all I'd say the Raubtier is superior in this aspect within the game context.

 

Secondly let's have a look at their armament where obviously the GTb1916 class instantly loses out in AA due to being a WW1 design with pretty much no AA. The Tb1924 at least gets some 20 mm guns, but they don't really have anything to write home about in this aspect either. Moving on the the main armament we have 4x150 mm/45 guns vs 3x105 mm/55 or 3x/105 mm/45 guns.

The 150mm/45 guns don't look very impressive, 5 rounds per minute and with a MV of 680 mps which is very slow (much slower than the cruiser guns). The 105 mm/55 on the other hand is a very nice surface target gun in game terms with 15 rounds per minute and an impressive muzzle velocity of 925 mps. The 105 mm/45 isn't as good as the /55, although it has a slightly heavier shell it also only has a MV of 780 mps meaning it's outright worse than the /55 in surface engagements but on the other hand it is potentially a DP gun (not entirely sure if the mounts on the Raubtier were DP mounts). Either way I'd take the Tb1924 over the GTb1916 easily.

 

Finally we get to the torpedoes where the GTb1916 has 2x2 600 mm H8 torpedoes on the centerline, 6 km/57 knots 11200 damage. Tb1924 has either 2x3 G7 on the centerline with 4 km/58 knots and 10433 damage or 2x3 G7a 6 km/64 knots and 13700 damage. A clear win for the Raubtier when using the G7a, less clear cut if using the G7.

 

So yeah, the Raubtier is the superior ship (depending on soft stats). I would even go so far as to say that the Raubtier could be balanced at tier 5 if you really wanted to with the G7a torpedoes and the 105 mm/55 guns it's really only its size and somewhat slower speed that makes me hesitant at putting it that high.

 

(Gun stats according to navweaps.com, ship stats from navypedia.org, german-navy.de, wikipedia)

[creamgravy]

Z34 is MILES too powerful for tier 6. It's much, much larger than Farragut (3200 deep tons vs 2000 deep tons, 325 crew vs 250 etc) The 5 x 12.7cm guns are better than US equivalents agasint surface targets, even with a low HE alpha like 1600. Adding 8 x G7a torps is just icing on the cake.

 

Raubtier class could be epic at tier 6 with G7a torps (8km, 61 knots, 7.6s reaction time or the 6km setting) and much better than Mutsuki (10km, 59 knots, 10s reaction time) What would be the surface detection with CE? 5km??  Hehe, fun times!

 

T6: Raubtier (T24)

T7 Z34

T8: Z36

T9: Narvik (1936A)

T10: Z45

 

[1MajorKoenig]

For me it's just the torpedo boats !

[1MajorKoenig]

Hopefully, yeah. I would really like to see some of the WW1 german destroyers ingame, but I don't agree that the Großes Torpedoboot 1916 is good enough for T5. Neither the guns nor the torpedoes are from what I've gathered anything extraordinary and due to its size you'd assume it wouldn't be that well concealed either. Hamburg is on the other hand much too new and an unnecessary addition to the tree, I don't understand exactly what drawback you see with the Zerstörer 1945 class that would put it at T9 instead of T10? Even the Zerstörer 1944 would be sufficient for T10 in my opinion when compared to Gearing (with the right torpedo/torpedo setting).

 

Here's my own take (copied from a post { http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/80491-german-destroyers-a-choice-between-light-vs-heavy/page__st__20__pid__1976223#entry1976223 } I did on the NA forum):

 

Tier 2

Großes Torpedoboot 1913 (V 25) - 33 knots, 3x1 88 mm, 2x2 centerline, 2x1 sides 500mm G6/G7 torpedo

Großes Torpedoboot 1916 Mob (G 96) - 32 knots, 3x1 105 mm, 2x2 centerline, 2x1 sides 500mm G6?/G7 torpedo

 

Tier 3

Großes Torpedoboot 1914A (G 101) - 33 knots, 4x1 105 mm, 2x2 centerline, 2x1 sides G6?/G7 torpedo

Großes Torpedoboot 1914R (B 97) - 36 knots, 4x1 105 mm, 2x2 centerline, 2x1 sides G6?/G7 torpedo

 

Tier 4

Großes Torpedoboot 1916 (S 113) - 34 knots, 4x1 150 mm, 2x2 centerline 600 mm H8 torpedo

Großes Torpedoboot 1918 Mob (V 170) - 35 knots, 4x1 105 mm, 2x2 centerline, 2x1 side 500 mm G7 torpedo

Torpedoboot 1923/1924 - 32-34 knots, 3x1 105 mm, 2x3 centerline 533 mm G7/G7a torpedo

Torpedoboot 1935/1937 - 35 knots, 1x1 105 mm, 2x3 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo

 

Tier 5

Flottentorpedoboot 1939 - 32 knots, 4x1 105 mm, 2x3 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo

Flottentorpedoboot 1941 - 34 knots, 4x1 105 mm, 2x3 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo

 

Tier 6

Flottentorpedoboot 1940 - 35 knots, 4x1 128 mm, 2x4 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo

Flottentorpedoboot 1941 A - 34 knots, 3x2 105 mm (DP), 2x3 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo - paper, required machinery that wasn't available

Flottentorpedoboot 1944 - 37 knots, 2x2 105 mm (DP), 2x3 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo - ordered but cancelled

 

Tier 7

Zerstörer 1938 B - 36 knots, 2x2 128 mm, 2x4 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo - ordered but cancelled

Zerstörer 1942 - 36 knots, 4x1 128 mm, 2x3 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo

 

Tier 8

Zerstörer 1936 A - 36 knots, 4x1 150 mm, 2x4 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo - without the upgrade to the twin 150 mm

Zerstörer 1934/1934 A - 38 knots, 5x1 128 mm, 2x4 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo

Zerstörer 1936/1936 B - 36 knots, 5x1 128 mm, 2x4 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo

 

Tier 9

Zerstörer 1936 A Mob - 36 knots, 3x1 1x2 150 mm, 2x4 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo

Zerstörer 1936 C - 37 knots, 3x2 128 mm (DP), 2x4 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo

 

Tier 10

Zerstörer 1944 - 37 knots, 3x2 128 mm (DP), 2x4 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo

Zerstörer 1945 - 39 knots, 4x2 128 mm (DP), 2x4 centerline 533 mm G7a torpedo - paper

 

(Mostly, but not exclusively, based on navypedia stats.)

T5 is actually the most problematic tier as none of the ships really fit all that well there in my mind. I have to say that overall destroyers are very reliant on soft stats though and the exact torpedo/torpedo setting so its generally pretty easy to shift things around somewhat.

 

 

Decent proposal! Curious what the line's flavor will be. 15cm guns I guess... 

 

[Snowyskies]

Thanks. Well, if you accept my crude tiering of the classes then you could probably get two lines worth of German destroyers, although they would be quite similar. You can't manage a theme throughout the the line, but you start out with hybrids, then torpedo based in the middle tiers while finally going towards a gunboat style at the higher tiers.

 

So flavour wise maybe something like this?

 

Line 1 (hybrid):

2: Großes Torpedoboot 1913 (V 25) using the G7 - torpedo flavour

3: Großes Torpedoboot 1914A (G 101) using G7 - hybrid

4: Großes Torpedoboot 1918 Mob (V 170) using G7 - hybrid

5: Torpedoboot 1923/1924 using G7a - torpedo

6: Flottentorpedoboot 1944 - torpedo

7: Zerstörer 1938 B - hybrid

8: Zerstörer 1934/1934 A/1936/1936 A - gunboat

9: Zerstörer 1936 C - gunboat

10: Zerstörer 1944 - hybrid (with something better than a G7a?)

 

Line 2 (gunboat):

2: Großes Torpedoboot 1916 Mob (G 96) using G6 - gunboat

3: Großes Torpedoboot 1914R (B 97) using G6D - gunboat

4: Großes Torpedoboot 1916 (S 113) - gunboat

5: Flottentorpedoboot 1939/1941 - hybrid (don't see any good gunboat choice at tier 5)

6: Flottentorpedoboot 1940 - gunboat

7: Zerstörer 1942 - gunboat

8: Zerstörer 1936 A - gunboat

9: Zerstörer 1936 A Mob - gunboat

10: Zerstörer 1945 - gunboat

 

Some of these are a bit iffy as to whether you should call it torpedo/hybrid/gunboat flavour but overall you'd use soft stats and torpedo settings to separate the two lines if they have ships that are otherwise quite similar. Line 1 would get the better torpedoes earlier and with more favourable settings while line 2 would be stuck with worse torpedoes at the start and using the short range option. You also get a good gun progression with line 1 starting at 88 mm, getting 105 mm guns from tier 3 to 6 and then finally the 128 mm guns from 7 and onwards.

Line 2 is a bit worse in regard to gun progression as I don't know any good candidate for a 150 mm gunned destroyer at tier 10 (no, the raiding cruiser they planned don't fit there in my opinion) and with a 150 mm gunned ship at tier 4 breaking the progression. The Großes Torpedoboot 1916 is overall a bit troublesome as it also has the better torpedoes than the ship in line 1. Still a decently coherent line and a Z1945 armed with 4x2 128 mm guns at the end of a gunboat line should be a nice fit anyway.

 

I should further note that I am a bit worried that I tiered the 150 mm Zerstörers too high because quite frankly I think the 128 mm guns are superior. The 150 mm guns are quite similar to the ones found on Karlsruhe (same muzzle velocity, same shell weight although the more modern shells might be more streamlined). Compared to the 128 mm guns they should have a flatter trajectory but they pay for that quite dearly as they, per NavWeaps, only have roughly half the rate of fire. In contrast they are also slower firing than the Russian 130 mm/55 high tier destroyer guns, have a worse trajectory and also turn slower. At tier 9 that means an Udaloi has better guns and also one more of them (6 vs 5) not to mention that the 150 mm guns are obviously not DP guns. Although then again Udaloi is, per warships.today winrate, over performing so perhaps being worse than it isn't such a bad thing.

[1MajorKoenig]

Awesome! What premium destroyers should we get? Z32 is the obvious one but what about tier 2? How about SMS G42 as a tier 3 premium? They had a very eventful WW1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_G42 

 

Oh and I did this torpedo conversion table a while back from Navweaps for German DDs.

 

 

Tier	Torpedo	Range (km)	Speed (Knots)	Detection (km)	Damage	Number	Reload	Ship Concealment	Launch distance	Time to Target (s)	Time in water (s)	Reaction time (s)	Vigilance (s)
T2	45cm C/03	4	47	0.8	9328	na	na	6	6	52.4	30.3	6.5	8.2
T2-3	50cm G/6 D long	8	48	0.8	8692	na	na	6	6	51.3	67.3	6.4	8.0
T2-3	50cm G/6 D	4	56	1.2	8692	na	na	6	6	44.0	24.0	8.2	10.3
T4	50cm G/7 long	9	48	0.8	10140	na	na	7	7	59.3	74.5	6.4	8.0
T4	50cm G/7	4	58	1.2	10140	na	na	7	7	49.1	26.5	8.0	9.9
S-113	60cm H8	6	57	1.2	10920	na	na	7	7	49.9	40.5	8.1	10.1
S-113	60cm H8 long	14	51	0.9	10920	na	na	7	7	55.8	105.6	6.8	8.5
T6-10	53.3cm G7a T1	6	65	1.3	13720	na	na	7	7	43.8	35.5	7.7	9.6
T6-10	53.3cm G7a T1 mid	8	61	1.2	13720	na	na	7	7	46.7	50.4	7.6	9.5
T6-10	53.3cm G7a T1 long	14	51	0.9	13720	na	na	7	7	55.8	105.6	6.8	8.5

 

• Overall they're fairly low accuracy but very stealthy. I would reduce reaction times by a second for a historic national trait.
• Higher tier could use 70cm or 75cm prototypes 'found' in archives or they could just alter stats completely, like IJN type 92 torpedoes.
• Navweaps is often utterly useless but WG use it, what can you do...

 

Nice :-)

 

How did you come up with 14km range? Having seen WG's German Cruisers torpedoes don't seem to be a strength for GER ships in WOWS. I would honestly be surprised if we see longer ranges. I guess it will be more the 15cm guns...

 

14km would be awesome though. Aaaand modelling the ships seems to be finalized 

[creamgravy]

How did you come up with 14km range? 

 

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTGER_WWII.php

 

Cruisers only use the short range setting (6km @ 44 knots) but destroyers will have access to the other modes. However WG don't like long range torp spam so they'll probably cap distances at 10-12km.

[fumtu]

My guess, higher tiers T8-T10 could have longer range torps, maybe up to 10-12km, but mid and lower tiers will probably have 6km once. Also I expect that 127mm will be standard for higher tier dds and Type 1936 with 150mm a premium.

[creamgravy]

 

2: V-25
3 G-101
4: V-170
5: T-22 (?? any idea)
6: Ernst Gaede (?? any idea)
7: Leberecht Maass (1934. Maybe Z-1 would've been a better name?)
8: Z-23 (1936A Narvik-class)
9: Z-46 (1936C)
10: Z-52 (1944)

[herrjott]

 

5: T-22 (?? any idea)

 

 

Flottentorpedoboot 1939 (Elbing-class)

[1MajorKoenig]

Some first pics:

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/66032-erste-bilder-der-kommenden-deutschen-zerstoerer-von-gamesmodels-3d/page__gopid__1415397#entry1415397

[FireflyActual]

Interesting. I wonder what flavour they're going to have. We know that the G7a torpedo is going to have 6 km range, I can't help but think what the later ones are going to have though. Hope they don't mix in U-boot torpedoes. 

[1MajorKoenig]

T6: Ernst Gaede - might be Z-31 which was the first of the Z1936A (mob) ships and only received four single turrets of 15cm guns as the twin for the bow wasn't available. However I am not aware that she ever got a name like Ernst Gaede which makes me think she might be a paper ship instead.

Interesting features of the line seem to be:
- forward firing torpedoes on T2-4
- caliber choice to go 15cm

Especially the first one sounds very promising!

 

EDIT: torp range will be better than 6km as it seems. 8-10.5 apparently 

[FireflyActual]

She does bear an almost uncanny resemblance to the 1936 class, though like you I'm unconvinced by the name. Perhaps it was considered for the ship long before she was laid down and then dropped for the 'Z' designation like for all the rest of the German destroyers. It looks like a variation of the Z1936A design but with two single guns in front of the conning tower and not one like you'd expect from an early ship of this class. That's just weird, why couldn't they go for a standard '36A layout? 

I'm unsure what to think of the armament of the Z1 either. While the 128 mm dual-purpose guns on the Z46 (Zerstörer 1936C) and the Z52 (Zerstörer 1944) make perfect sense as that's what was planned for them, I'm baffled why WG have elected to give the '34 the same armament when in real life the ship had the older 127 mm guns. I guess I shouldn't complain because that's probably a concession to game balance... IMHO it would also make more sense for a properly armed '34 to occupy tier 6 in lieu of the oddly named Ernst Gaede, with the latter given the tier VII spot. The line could then go like this:

 

[V] Ftb1939 [VI] Z1934 -> [VII] Z1936A (early, 4-gun) [VIII] Z1936A(M) (5-gun, twin 150 mm front turret) -> [iX] Z1936C -> [X] Z1944

Given the gaps in the line I wouldn't be surprised to find a ship like the Z1942 as a tier VIII premium... Either that or an entirely new branch to be added in the future, possibly ending with the Z1945 (hopefully).

One other interesting tidbit I found on German Wiki - apparently a subclass of the Großes Torpedoboot 1918 M (aka V170-class) contracted to Schichau-Werke in Danzig were to be fitted with 150 mm/L45 guns. I doubt this will make it into the game because of the low tier it's at, but it'd be fun to see what it could do. 

Also, you were absolutely right about the torpedo ranges. Apparently WG has decided to lengthen the range of the TI/G7A to 7,5 km and give the ships from tier VI and up a torp range of 8 kilometres and up, with solid speeds to boot (65-69 knots). We'll see if that goes through to the live version, but if it's anything like the proposed stats we have plenty to look forward to (just FYI, thedailybounce.net has excellent stat previews of those ships, not sure if I can post them here so I'm just going to leave the link).

[1MajorKoenig]

Takeda92 (I believe it was him) posted that there are rumours on the RU forum that "Ernst Gaede" is a destroyer project called SK22 by Vulkan. SK is a bit of a weird abbreviation for a DD as it used to indicate a large fast fighting ship design in the Imperial Navy.

 

However, anyone ever heard of such a design?

[VonPletz]

What I am most concerned about with these German DDs is going to be the Concealment capabilities and whether Wargaming will give them the torpedos they deserve.  German DDs carried a  G7a torpedo that was of variable speed (unique for its time) these could be adjusted with running a distance of 5km at 81 km/h, 7.5km at 74 km/h, and 12km at 55.6 km/h so they would have similar ranges of Japanese Torps.  Also, are they going to give them single tube front shooting torpedo tubes as was common with German Schnellboots?

Concealment is going to be a key point here because their cannon armaments are weak.

[Nethraniel]

What I am most concerned about with these German DDs is going to be the Concealment capabilities and whether Wargaming will give them the torpedos they deserve.  German DDs carried a  G7a torpedo that was of variable speed (unique for its time) these could be adjusted with running a distance of 5km at 81 km/h, 7.5km at 74 km/h, and 12km at 55.6 km/h so they would have similar ranges of Japanese Torps.  Also, are they going to give them single tube front shooting torpedo tubes as was common with German Schnellboots?

 

Concealment is going to be a key point here because their cannon armaments are weak.

 

The leaked values for the German DDs suggest, that they are the new IJN DDs, considering the IJN DD tree split, better guns, better torps, able to stealth torp.... however, these are all preliminary values, and I seriously hope, they will tweak everything a bit before.

[1MajorKoenig]

The torpedoes look indeed surprisingly decent. Stats-wise the GER DDs don't seem to leave much to be desired but of course I am curious how that turns out once we get our hands on them.

 

Btw: yes, the Kaiserliche Marine boats have single launchers with limited traverse almost straight forward :-)

[fnord_disc]

The torpedoes used are experimental turbine torpedoes. The torpedo at T5 is the last torpedo actually fielded in combat - the rest is all experimental AIP turbine propulsion.

 

I more or less predicted this would happen because the standard G7a and G7e are too crappy for destroyers and they're not strong enough as gunboats either. It was fairly clear that Lesta would pick all these experimental torpedoes to buff the ships.

[FireflyActual]

Indeed, although some of those torpedoes were actually manufactured and delivered to the Kriegsmarine before the end of the war (not used in anger though), such as the Steinbutt and the Steinbarsch. 

[fnord_disc]

Indeed, although some of those torpedoes were actually manufactured and delivered to the Kriegsmarine before the end of the war (not used in anger though), such as the Steinbutt and the Steinbarsch. 

 

Yeah, I'm not saying they're complete cloud castles. The torpedoes on Fletcher and Gearing were never used in combat either.

[totally_potato]

On 3/25/2016 at 8:07 PM, 1MajorKoenig said:

T10: Sp1 (Spähkreuzer): An even larger design of 5.700t and more armed with three twin turrets 15cm cannons, one fore and two aft. In WOWS the Sp1 would blurr the line between light cruisers and heavy destroyers but will make an excellent T10 ship relying heavily on her main artillery and a decent HP pool exceeding 22.000 and surpassing the “Khabarovsk” in this respect

Buddy its 2021 and I am speaking from the future. Your wish was fulfilled, except it has 30K HP

[1MajorKoenig]

12 minutes ago, totally_potato said:

Buddy its 2021 and I am speaking from the future. Your wish was fulfilled, except it has 30K HP

The world has come a long way since :-)

 

At the time 22k looked awesome - today the 30k are probably needed