PROPOSAL: Full German Destroyer Line (DD)

[1MajorKoenig]

 

Hello fellow sailors,

To round up my Trilogy about the full German tech tree, let’s have a look at the destroyer line as I am certainly not suggesting a full paper-line of CVs for the German Navy.

Historically there was a change in doctrine with regards to destroyers in the German Navy in parallel with technology advancing. In the early days of the German Navy when it evolved from a small pure coastal defense oriented group into the second strongest Navy in the world at the eve of WW1 it experimented with torpedoes and torpedo boats. Even though technology wasn’t ready for the “Jeune Ecole” yet the German Navy intended to use the small, inexpensive and relatively easy to produce boats to defend the German coast against an expected close blockade and raids and landing operations to the own coast. Therefore sea keeping and endurance were initially no priority and the torpedo was considered the offensive element for the boats, leaving the artillery for self-defense. This was somewhat different to the British and Japanese approach who quickly realized that bigger and stronger armed ships could not only act as torpedo boats but also as a defense against the same type of ship resulting in the Torpedoboatdestroyer type, or “Destroyer” in short which was larger and carried bigger guns. After the war Germany continued to produce smaller torpedo boats but also developed a larger true destroyer type of ship. As the German Navy never had to (nor was able to) defend huge shipping lanes with these ships the focus on them was not excessive.

In World of Warships the German DD line has three different flavors to it – corresponding to how the type evolved in the different German Navies - ,starting with a focus on fast and small ships with a decent torpedo armament and relying on stealth to survive made up of ships from the Kaiserliche Marine and Weimar Republic’s Reichsmarine. The line then evolves into more destroyer (artillery) oriented ships with strong MA but resulting in bigger ships that are less likely to stay covert. Lastly there is a split in higher tiers representing two directions of development, the default continuation into what would eventually become the first destroyers of the West German Bundesmarine focusing on agile ships with lighter artillery and a split off into a heavier 15cm armed line representing the last design considerations of the Third Reich:

• T2: S-14 (Großes Torpedoboot 1911): Relatively small and squishy boats in an all-black camo scheme at 695t and no armor but decent stealth. Expect an impressive 34 kn top speed (higher than USN and IJN and slightly less than the Soviet DD) but very few hitpoints (comparable to the Russian DD) at a little more than 7.000 for this little boat. The main armament are 4 launchers for 50cm torpedos but there are also two low velocity 8.8cm L/30 guns for self-defense only. Historically there were different upgrades to these boats in terms of artillery including the much better 8.8cm L/45 and the bigger 10.5cm L/45 but for T2 in WOWS the original gun is sufficient as the boat is tasked to rely on its torpedos, speed and stealth.
• T3: V-25 (Großes Torpedoboot 1913): The TB1913 type was an improvement in every aspect over the earlier German torpedo boats being bigger and having better sea keeping capabilities. These black boats displaced around 975t at full load, still less than the Wickes at about 1.200t. Her health pool would therefore be most likely slightly less than 8.000 hp and her top speed is decent at 33,5kn. Her primary weapons are two twin and two single launchers for the same 50cm torpedos (6 tubes in total) and she carries three pieces of the much stronger 8.8cm L/45 compared to the T2 boat.
• T4: Wolf (Type 24): A post-WW1 torpedo boat design (still in the traditional black camo) displacing about 1.300t at full load (similar to the USN Clemson) so we can expect a similar health pool around 8.800 hp. She has a top speed of 35.5 knots (slightly more than Clemson) and is armed with six 50cm torpedo tubes (same amount as V-25) but three larger 10.5cm L/45 guns for self-defense. A torpedo upgrade for 533mm G7A torpedos would be available for this ship.
• T5: S-113 (Großes Torpedoboot 1916): The last of the “Black Hussars” in the German DD line. A much bigger and much more powerful design compared to the preceding smaller torpedo boats of the Kaiserliche Marine and almost a hybrid between the former torpedo boats and the following destroyers. Displacing around 2.415t at full load which is roughly double the size of the preceding “Wolf” which means a much improved health pool (expect 12.000 hp plus). The type’s top speed is 34.5 knots and is armed with only 2 double launchers but for more powerful 60cm torpedo compared to earlier models. On top her main artillery is pretty strong at four 15cm L/45 clearing the path to transition into the larger Kriegsmarine destroyers starting on Tier 6.
• T6: Z-1 (Zerstörer 1934): Larger at 2.200t standard displacement, compared to the roughly 2.000t of the USN Farragut, the line now becomes more artillery-centric but keeps good speed at 36 knots. HP wise we should be about 12.000 now with the caveat that the ship is a lot bigger and stealth is far more of a concern. Also the range of the German G7 torpedo of which Z-1 carries two quadruple launchers are hampered by relatively short range which makes a torpedo attack rather daring. However, the artillery is decent, featuring five 12.7cm pieces firing HE ammunition and some AA autocannons. The ship will for sure bring a big change in gameplay within the line.
• T7: Z-17 (Zerstörer 1936): An incremental improvement of the Z-1 the Z-17 shares a lot of features with the preceding class. A displacement of roughly 2.400t will result in a comfortable HP pool around 14.000 with a speed of 36 knots. In reality the ship featured a lot of improvements over the 1934 type but stats- and loadout wise they are rather similar. It still features five 12.7cm quick firing guns and two quadruple torpedo launchers for the G7A torpedo. We would see some improvements on soft stats though, such as RoF, turret traverse, similar to the step from “Königsberg” to “Nürnberg”.
• T8: Z-46 (Zerstörer 1936C): A projected improvement of the 1936 type as it became clear that air defense is not sufficient on the previous ships of which five ships were ordered but none completed. The main change to the preceding designs is the change in MA towards 12.8cm FLAK 40 dual purpose guns complemented by heavy 3.7cm and 2cm autocannons. This means that AA wise these ships will be a big step forward compared to the earlier German destroyers as long with a little better survivability.
• T9: Z-59 (Zerstörer 1945): Another projected destroyer type. The design featured improved steam turbines rather than Diesel-engines enabling the ship to reach 39.5 knots and heavily increased AA capabilities. The main armament consists of four twin FLAK40 dual purpose 12.8cm guns and two quadruple torpedo launchers of the known type, complemented by heavy AA (4 x 5.5cm L76.5 and 12 x 3cm autocannons) so the ship’s strength will be AA. HP wise we should be a decent increase (19.000) as the projected displacement was 3.700t.
• T10: Hamburg (Klasse 101): The top tier destroyer would be the “Hamburg” class. Slightly larger at about 4.000t (20.000HP?) this class features a top speed of 37 knots, four single auto-loading 10cm guns and excellent maneuverability. The AA is still strong at four advanced 4cm autocannons but ***EDITED*** the ship was build with fixed tubes which would make for a totally unique and intriguing experience. I could imagine a fixed forward cone for daring close quarter attacks. Apart from this feature, “Hamburg” will rely on agility coupled with very fast firing auto-loading cannons. Also she will fly the fourth German flag in the game already, the one of the then young Western German Republic…

 

 

At T7 the path splits off into the 15cm armed heavier destroyers and goes up to T10 in parallel:

 

• T8: Z-23 (Zerstörer 1936 A “Narvik”): An improved version of the type 1936 destroyer with a little higher displacement resulting in an improved health pool of around 15.000. The ship’s main advantage is the heavier MA consisting of four single 15cm L/45 guns which will make the ship the heaviest armed destroyer so far. An upgrade to the main artillery would replace the single 15cm gun fore with a twin turret resulting in a total of five 15cm guns. Speed and torpedo arrangement would be similar to the preceding type.
• T9: Z (Zerstörer 1938A/Ac): A large ocean going destroyer project that never came to completion but can be seen as a step towards the “Spähkreuzer”. The ships’ displacement was close to 5.000t which would result in a very comfortable health pool of about 21.000 and the designed speed was 35.5 knots. The main armament would have consisted of three twin turrets for 15cm cannons complemented by heavy AA (8.8cm, 3.7cm, 2cm). The ship would have also featured ten torpedo launchers, five on each side.
• T10: Sp1 (Spähkreuzer): An even larger design of 5.700t and more armed with three twin turrets 15cm cannons, one fore and two aft. In WOWS the Sp1 would blurr the line between light cruisers and heavy destroyers but will make an excellent T10 ship relying heavily on her main artillery and a decent HP pool exceeding 22.000 and surpassing the “Khabarovsk” in this respect

 

Please also see for the cruisers: http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/46845-proposal-revised-german-cruiser-line/page__fromsearch__1

And the Capital ships: http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/46929-proposal-full-german-capital-ships-line-bbbc/page__p__915118#entry915118

 

[Takemikazuchi_1121]

Mh...i see, you reworked your DD-Tree a lot.  So many of my "Problem-Points" are gone.

 

Altough i liked your other Trees (Cruiser and Battleships) a lot, i must say, i prefer Walthers DD-Tree (Attention, It's on german) a little more. He has exhausted more possibilities (Torpedoboat- and Gunboat-Branch).

But for the beginning, your Tree is more as sufficient.

 

 

But the main point is, that you don't forget T 36 (Flottentorpedoboot 1936 1939) as Tier IV and the Raubvogel-Klasse as Tier III Premium-DD. 

[1MajorKoenig]

Mh...i see, you reworked your DD-Tree a lot.  So many of my "Problem-Points" are gone.

 

Altough i liked your other Trees (Cruiser and Battleships) a lot, i must say, i prefer Walthers DD-Tree (Attention, It's on german) a little more. Hehas exhausted morepossibilities (Torpedoboat- and Gunboat-Branch).

But for the beginning,your Tree is more as sufficient.

 

 

But the main point is, that you don't forget T 36 (Flottentorpedoboot 1936) as Tier IV and the Raubvogel-Klasse as Tier III Premium-DD. 

 

Thank you sir! Indeed I changed the tree as I felt that two lines would not be needed. I had the same idea about two parallel lines but noticed that it is actually only one splitting up into two in high tiers though. Thanks for the feedback anyway 

 

yes, Raubvogel should be T4 premium. So you have details on the FTB 1936? Don 't know anything about it...

[kamuka]

The Hamburg-class is completely out of place in this game with its 60rpm autocannons.

Z45 would be more than enough for T10 easily outgunning the Khabarovsk and Gearing.

Z44 for T9

Z34 at T6 might be to strong/need a rof nerf.

Spähkreuzer is not a Destroyer. It even has cruiser in its name. The 15cm Destroyers would be pretty bad anyways.

[Combat_Hamster]

Interesting,  I think  the  type 1945  is too powerful  for  t9  and  should be  t10  really,  you could have  the type  1942c  at  9?

 

Perhaps  move  the  Z1s  up a  tier  and  have  the type  1938B  at  6?

 

2 x 2  5", 1 x 37mm 2 x 20mm 2 x 4 21" T.T.  and  36  knots,  quite similar  to Ogg

 

T5,  either Leopard or Luchs  which carried 5" guns, or  T22  with 4 x 4.1", and decent light A.A.

 

I have  Janes  Fighting Ships  1924  and  the  big  WW1 destroyers  were a bit of  a  washout,  France and Italy both got one after WW1  and  neither navy  appears  to have been able to obtain more  than 29 knots out of them, as well as  being  bow heavy and generally unseaworthy.  Well  researched  post though.

[Takemikazuchi_1121]

So you have details on the FTB 1936? Don 't know anything about it...

 

At this point, a very big "sorry"!  

 

It was late and my fingers tired, it is the FTB 1939 of course. For infos look at my Signature (T 36). 

[1MajorKoenig]

Thanks Takemikazuchi an Combat Hamster,

 

the FTB 1939 is too strong for T4 I would say. Are you suggesting it as an alternative T5?

 

 

[Takemikazuchi_1121]

the FTB 1939 is too strong for T4 I would say. Are you suggesting it as an alternative T5?

 

Yes and no.

 

Depending on Stats like Torp-Range/Dmg and Concealment, it could fit on both Tiers.

The biggest Contra-Point for me at Tier V is the Speed with just 31 knots (US = 37kn; RU = 38kn; JP = 39kn).

 

I would prefer Tier IV with 6km Torps by 10433 Dmg and the 10,5cm Guns with a RoF of 12-15 by 1200 (even on this Tier it would be the worst Dmg of all Guns, but good RoF).

So it would be a good allrounder, it could stealth-torp (within a small area; JP-DDS would still be the Number 1 in torp others) and could outgun JP-DDs but would lose against RU-DDs.

 

And with the good AA (for this Tier) you would have a perfect escort Vessel.

[1MajorKoenig]

 

Yes and no.

 

Depending on Stats like Torp-Range/Dmg and Concealment, it could fit on both Tiers.

The biggest Contra-Point for me at Tier V is the Speed with just 31 knots (US = 37kn; RU = 38kn; JP = 39kn).

 

I would prefer Tier IV with 6km Torps by 10433 Dmg and the 10,5cm Guns with a RoF of 12-15 by 1200 (even on this Tier it would be the worst Dmg of all Guns, but good RoF).

So it would be a good allrounder, it could stealth-torp (within a small area; JP-DDS would still be the Number 1 in torp others) and could outgun JP-DDs but would lose against RU-DDs.

 

And with the good AA (for this Tier) you would have a perfect escort Vessel.

 

German Navy.de says a little more than 32 knots. So yes pretty slow. Still, with some AA, modern Torpedos and decent MA I think she is too strong for T4:-)

 

Could be a T5 prem though 

 

in mr3awesome 's thread the T-22 is the T5 for example.

 

Also his line there is artillery centric even for the Kaiserliche Marine ships (G-101 Torpedobootzerstörer, GTB 1918mob). Sounds like WG does not appreciate my idea with a 180 degrees change in gameplay in midtiers....

[Takemikazuchi_1121]

German Navy.de says a little more than 32 knots. So yes pretty slow. Still, with some AA, modern Torpedos and decent MA I think she is too strong for T4:-)

 

Could be a T5 prem though

 

As i said, both is possible.  I would just prefer Tier IV a little. 

 

And the whole class as Premium? Meh, there were the Workhorses in the Baltic Sea (and in the Channel too). So, i would put them definitly  in the regular Tree.

 

But T 36 would be a good (perfect) Premiumship.

Good Story and (little) differences to the other Ships of the Class. With just one Torpedolauncher on Tier IV or with both Launchers on Tier V.

 

 

 

in mr3awesome 's thread the T-22 is the T5 for example.

 

In Walthers Tree too, but there, it is only the Stock-Hull with (the superior) FTB 1941 as Upgrade (what i don't like so much, because there are two different classes).

So, you could place the FTB 1941 on Tier V and put FTB 1939 back on Tier IV. This would even work in mr3awesomes Tree.

 

Tier IV = FTB 1939 --> Tier V = FTB 1941 --> Tier VI = FTB 1944

 

The Artillery would be on the same Level (maybe little differences in RoF or so), the Torpedoes would be better from Tier to Tier, same as AA, HP and Speed.

 

 

What do you think? 

 

[1MajorKoenig]

 

As i said, both is possible.  I would just prefer Tier IV a little. 

 

And the whole class as Premium? Meh, there were the Workhorses in the Baltic Sea (and in the Channel too). So, i would put them definitly  in the regular Tree.

 

But T 36 would be a good (perfect) Premiumship.

Good Story and (little) differences to the other Ships of the Class. With just one Torpedolauncher on Tier IV or with both Launchers on Tier V.

 

 

 

 

In Walthers Tree too, but there, it is only the Stock-Hull with (the superior) FTB 1941 as Upgrade (what i don't like so much, because there are two different classes).

So, you could place the FTB 1941 on Tier V and put FTB 1939 back on Tier IV. This would even work in mr3awesomes Tree.

 

Tier IV = FTB 1939 --> Tier V = FTB 1941 --> Tier VI = FTB 1944

 

The Artillery would be on the same Level (maybe little differences in RoF or so), the Torpedoes would be better from Tier to Tier, same as AA, HP and Speed.

 

 

What do you think? 

 

 

I guess that would also work. But don't you think these two are a little too similar? I think maybe one of them on T5 would be ok. Question then what to do with my Kaiserliche Marine Black Hussars... I really have a sweet spot for the old WW1 designs, a lot more than The WW2. 

 

Unfortunately for me WG also likes more WW2 style so chances are high that you get your T-22 / 36 rather than a Großes Torpedoboot on T5 :-)

[TheIdesOfMarch93]

The DD tree looks good. But just one small quibble. A T10 destroyer with no torpedo tubes?? That's like a battleship with only one turret, even if it's a Yamato one with three 18-inch guns. Just seems weird to me. Even gunboat DDs like the Gearing and Khabarovsk have torpedoes and pretty decent ones at that. 

[Exocet6951]

The DD tree looks good. But just one small quibble. A T10 destroyer with no torpedo tubes?? That's like a battleship with only one turret, even if it's a Yamato one with three 18-inch guns. Just seems weird to me. Even gunboat DDs like the Gearing and Khabarovsk have torpedoes and pretty decent ones at that. 

 

Well did do have fixed torpedo tubes...

I have no idea where, but it it was fixed at the bow, like a submarine, that would make for some interesting strategies of hit and run.

 

Now, having fixed tubes sounds like a tough hurdle, but considering that they can fan out, as long as there are more than 2 tubes, it could be viable.

 

I'm actually very interested in it now, because it sounds like a very fun little hit and run machine.

[Takemikazuchi_1121]

The DD tree looks good. But just one small quibble. A T10 destroyer with no torpedo tubes??

 

Well did do have fixed torpedo tubes...

 

According to my knowledge, the Hamburg-Class did have one variant with 1 x 5 Torp-launcher on Deck in an early development stage.

 

But the source? .......I have to check again......

 

[1MajorKoenig]

 

 

According to my knowledge, the Hamburg-Class did have one variant with 1 x 5 Torp-launcher on Deck in an earlydevelopment stage.

 

But the source? .......I have to check again......

 

 

Hmm.. You are right! Torpedoes should be available. I actually like both ideas and will update the OP!

 

if you find any source about Deck mounted Torpedoes that would be interesting. Did not find it while briefly checking Mr. Google...

 

But the idea to have 3 fixed tubes at the bow is intriguing. Totally different but for sure fascinating!

[Takemikazuchi_1121]

But the idea to have 3 fixed tubes at the bow is intriguing. Totally different but for sure fascinating!

 

Where i just read it.....

 

I am also a big Fan of a potential Tier II Premium-"DD". The S-100 Class Schnellboot (E-Boat).

It would be an E-25 on the water. Very fast, very small, good Camo but less HP and no armor. As main-armament it would have only two fixed Torpedotubes in the bow (but with good RoF). 

 

It would be total different to all other ships, but i think, it would be very funny to play. 

 

 

 

 

PS: I have written to Walther for the Hamburg-Question.

[Poster_2015]

I can see some problems with Hamburg-class DD guns.

 

First of all they would be somewhat "OP" in terms of sheer volume of fire - 0.8 sec reload even with 100mm gun even with 3 guns (i believe they had 3 not 4 mounts) means over 225 shells/min which is somewhat close to Atlanta (180). The low caliber doesnt matter THAT much given how low caliber HE shells are not losing that much efficiency (damage on tier 2 102mm russian HE is same as on the 130mm later gunboats). Coupled with their AP performance it would produce salvos similiar to half of udaloi except 5 times as often.

 

However this advantage would be more then nullified by range. Remember the game employs almost halving ranges on all warships just to increase battle dynamics. This means Hamburg class guns would have 6-7km max range at tier 10 in game.

 

So you have insanely powerful guns (especialy if you go with 4), but with range thats laughable at t10 (especially with new radar). I dont see any reasonable way to balance that.

[1MajorKoenig]

I can see some problems with Hamburg-class DD guns.

 

First of all they would be somewhat "OP" in terms of sheer volume of fire - 0.8 sec reload even with 100mm gun even with 3 guns (i believe they had 3 not 4 mounts) means over 225 shells/min which is somewhat close to Atlanta (180). The low caliber doesnt matter THAT much given how low caliber HE shells are not losing that much efficiency (damage on tier 2 102mm russian HE is same as on the 130mm later gunboats). Coupled with their AP performance it would produce salvos similiar to half of udaloi except 5 times as often.

 

However this advantage would be more then nullified by range. Remember the game employs almost halving ranges on all warships just to increase battle dynamics. This means Hamburg class guns would have 6-7km max range at tier 10 in game.

 

So you have insanely powerful guns (especialy if you go with 4), but with range thats laughable at t10 (especially with new radar). I dont see any reasonable way to balance that.

 

Range in WOWS has very little in common with real firing range. WG uses the main fire control range finder's height as a starting point but we see a lot of jbc modification afterwards. EG. Kutozov....

 

The Hamburg had initially 4 main guns but one got removed later when the missile armament was refitted. 

 

60 plus RPM sounds fun actually! Coupled with less effective HE on the German line it should be good to go :-)

 

***EDITED***: Original post updated with a proposal for fixes Torpedo tubes on "Hamburg" 

[Poster_2015]

Yes the exact range can vary, but in general the game has:

 

-  lowered max firing distance (id say to 66%)

- halved the flight times (or double shell velocity)

- over doubled the actual ship speed (the biggest maps are almost 30nautical miles across, so if not for that even fastest ships would take an hour to travel diagonally). Im not exactly sure whats the multiplier but its in EXCESS of 2.

- doubled torpedo speed (again if not for that 20 km range torpedoes at 65kn = ~ 120km/h would take 10 mins to reach their destination).

 

Only from this "baseline" they make some balance adjustments. 

 

Im not entirely sure about the FCS height thing. I know Fuso is brought as prime example, but if you look into Fuso history, the 1st iteration (Hull A) had turrets that could elevate only 20 degree. Later ones increased this elevation to 43 degrees increasing the range from ~ 20km to 32km. That actually corresponds very well to Fuso range increase from 13 to 20km in game. This also explains while similiarly rebuild Kongo pagoda bridge doesnt give you increase in range. 

 

Now remember also that the guns on Hamburg had ~11km range in real life compared to 15.5km of gearing (11.1 in game). If we keep proportions we end up with 7.8 range or so. 

 

[Takemikazuchi_1121]

Now remember also that the guns on Hamburg had ~11km range in real life compared to 15.5km of gearing (11.1 in game). If we keep proportions we end up with 7.8 range or so. 

 

Mh.....

 

The Sverdlov-Class (Kutuzov) had a Range of ~23 Km in real life, ingame ~19 Km.

The Hipper-Class had a Range of ~33 Km in real life, ingame ~17 Km.

 

So, the Hamburg-Class could have easily a bigger Range (or the same, or whatever) as the Gearing-Class.

[Poster_2015]

Like i said, thats the baseline. Also lets backtrack a bit. When released Kutuzov had 15.9km range, Hipper had 17.7km. Now from what i understand the actual ranges were around 33km for hipper, and around 30km for Sverdlov using AP ammo. 

 

The discrepancy you talk about is coming from 2 things

 

1) Sverdlov class had vastly different range depending on shell used. 23km you listed was indeed one of given ranges for HE ammo, however most sources i can find, cite AP ammunition capable of reaching over 30km. Since the mechanics in the game does not allow for different range on different ammo types, hence they apparently used the longer range.

 

Now given 30->15.9 conversion for Kutuzov, and 33->17.7 for Hipper seems more reasonable? 

 

2) After Kutuzov was released they decided they cant nerf it after release and selling to many people , and they added it extra 20% range to compensate for loss of AFT.

 

And either way, i think putting sub 1 sec shooting destroyer would be simply bad under current mechanics. Its kinda like pre-dreadnaught BBs , they can be implemented, but unless some basic game rules arent changed, they wont work (if you give secondary gun control to player they will actually outperform dreadnaughts, if you dont they suck).

[Takemikazuchi_1121]

The 30 Km were possible by an elevation angle of 48°, but the turret could just elevate on 45°.

 

And the Kutuzov was planned from beginning with the Range of 19 Km (of course, first with AFT).

That is the Reason, she wasn't changed with 0.5.3 (as example, Yubari and Murmansk were changed, and i paid for them too).

 

 

But it is what it is.

The Kutuzov has a bigger Range as the Hipper altough it is "historical inaccurate". So, i see no problems to give the Hamburg-Class a bigger Range as she had in reality.

 

Also, you could give her her maximum range (not effective range!) of ~17 Km (that would be a bigger range as the Gearing have).

[1MajorKoenig]

 

PS: I have written to Walther for the Hamburg-Question.

 

Did you find out by chance about deck mounted torpedoes on Hamburg- Even if it would be only during the design stage?

[Kazomir]

Looks awesome. Kinda uncomfortable  with the tier 10 as it is a post war vehicle and is completely different from the others, or rather, a really big change, whereas I feel the Z1945 can make for a good tier 10 herself without being such a drastic change. That would mean we would have to sneak in a destroyer somewhere along the line though.

[1MajorKoenig]

Looks awesome. Kinda uncomfortable  with the tier 10 as it is a post war vehicle and is completely different from the others, or rather, a really big change, whereas I feel the Z1945 can make for a good tier 10 herself without being such a drastic change. That would mean we would have to sneak in a destroyer somewhere along the line though.

 

I mean there are some more designs we could put in. But I really prefer the Hamburg with her low caliber auto loading guns. It would be a logical progression from Z45 with her DP guns to smaller and faster firing ones. I think she would be a reasonsble counter part for Gearing.