Ok here we have the RN Cruisers

[dude1416]

Hello Commanders.

I am a New Commander that's still learning the game that asks questions about wows and about there changes.

In my other topic about WG wows  I touched on the subject of the tier VI USN Cleveland and I just looked at the tier VI RU Budyonny.

 

So this topic is about these ships and first of all its nice to see more ships to Command WG

 

 

With the RU tier VI Budyonny 152mm guns they fire at 16.6km range once upgraded at  7.5rounds/min and before the upgrade there range is 15.1km.

The USN tier VI Clevelands 152mm guns fire at 14.6km range once  upgraded the guns also at 7.5rounds/min

The range was 18km  I be leave on the Cleveland before.

 

Since the Clevelands been downgraded in every way makes me wonder and ask about the tier VI RU Budyonny.

The shells from the Cleveland fire upwards now where as before they did not and are now in the air a long time before reaching its target which now makes it really hard  to hit as good as it did before the game was open for anyone to join I be leave or was it just after ?.

 

So now does the tier VI RU Budyonnys shells which travel further than the clevelands shells go upwards before they reach the target ?.

They both carry 3 guns on each mount but the Cleveland has 4 mounts and the Budyonny only has 3 mounts but carries 3 torpedo tubs on each side.

 

Both ships carry planes ,the Budyonnys plane is a single winged plane and since the downgrade of the Cleveland it has a twin winged plane now.

 

The citadel on the Cleveland is larger than what it was before the down grade.

So whats the citadel like on the Budyonny ?.

The Budyonnys main guns turn faster than the Clevelands and that's even when you have upgraded the clevelands main guns.

 

Even the tier V RU  Kirov has better range 14.8km at stock and upgraded 16.3km and faster turning guns.

Both RN tier V and VI go faster than the Cleveland.

Even the GN Cruisers tier V and VI  have better range stock than the Cleveland.

The only extra the Cleveland has over the RU tier V VI and GN tier V VI is that they have more AA mounts but have since downgrade lost some guns on mounts I be leave ?.

 

So before the Cleveland was messed up in my opinion to much ,when was it that some started to complain about it ?.

If you could share the links please.

 

Thanks and good luck Commanders

 

[dude1416]

Hello supertesters

Hopefully you 3 can help

[JeeWeeJ]

...I was confused by the title... RN is commonly used for the Royal Navy (= British Navy), for the Russians we commonly us RU.
Anyway, the thing with Russian cruisers from mid-tier and onwards is their (very) decent guns and pretty much complete lack of armor, where Cleveland has very good armor.

 

In my experience at long range the RU ships have a slight advantage over their USN counterparts, but once the range closes and armor becomes "a thing", it's the USN ships that have the advantage.

 

Beside that, the nerf of Cleveland was -at the time- a good thing. Cleve is a ship design that wouldn't be misplaced at tier 8. If she would be un-nerfed she would be massively OP on tier 6 again.

[dude1416]

...I was confused by the title... RN is commonly used for the Royal Navy (= British Navy), for the Russians we commonly us RU.

Anyway, the thing with Russian cruisers from mid-tier and onwards is their (very) decent guns and pretty much complete lack of armor, where Cleveland has very good armor.

 

In my experience at long range the RU ships have a slight advantage over their USN counterparts, but once the range closes and armor becomes "a thing", it's the USN ships that have the advantage.

 

Beside that, the nerf of Cleveland was -at the time- a good thing. Cleve is a ship design that wouldn't be misplaced at tier 8. If she would be un-nerfed she would be massively OP on tier 6 again.

 

Thanks for replying and for pointing out my mistake 

Also thanks for the information about the RU Cruisers.

[JeeWeeJ]

You're welcome! 

 

[dude1416]

So at say 10km the USN Cleveland is a better ship.

But if the RU Cruiser commander stays at 14.5 to 15km range do the RU shells go upwards like the Cleveland shells now do ?.

[JeeWeeJ]

See it like this: the longer the range, the easier the shells are to dodge. So at extreme and long range the lack of armor of the RU ship isn't much of an issue, since you can try and dodge the Cleve's shells while spamming him with shells of your own.

The closer you get, the shallower the shell arcs will become and thus a bigger risk that they hit the vertical (= side) armor. This is where the Cleve will have the advantage since that ship has more-or-less the armor protection of a heavy cruiser, where the RU ship will have much MUCH less protection.

 

So the shorter the range, the bigger the chance that the Cleveland will hit your citadel, while you'll have a harder time hitting his. Ofcourse: at point blank range AP shells will smash through any armor, but you still need to get there with a decent amount of hitpoints.

 

...and then I haven't even spoken of Clevelands secondary battery... (did I say it's a tier 8-ish ship yet?)

[dude1416]

See it like this: the longer the range, the easier the shells are to dodge. So at extreme and long range the lack of armor of the RU ship isn't much of an issue, since you can try and dodge the Cleve's shells while spamming him with shells of your own.

The closer you get, the shallower the shell arcs will become and thus a bigger risk that they hit the vertical (= side) armor. This is where the Cleve will have the advantage since that ship has more-or-less the armor protection of a heavy cruiser, where the RU ship will have much MUCH less protection.

 

So the shorter the range, the bigger the chance that the Cleveland will hit your citadel, while you'll have a harder time hitting his. Ofcourse: at point blank range AP shells will smash through any armor, but you still need to get there with a decent amount of hitpoints.

 

...and then I haven't even spoken of Clevelands secondary battery... (did I say it's a tier 8-ish ship yet?)

 

But like most notice about the Cleveland shells flight that they are in the air along time till reaches the target and the reload time of both ships the same.

So the RU tier V and VI will have a massive advantage over the Cleveland because of the range.

That is if the RU shell don't take so long in flight ?.

I have noticed that the tier V GN cruiser has good results against a tier VI Cleveland if stays at range from its target because of the flight of the clevelands shells.

 

 

To me it comes down to how skilled the commander is since the RU tier V and VI cruisers have better range and speed.

Also when was it that the Cleveland got all its downgrades and would you be able to send me the links to when commanders where calling out to have it downgraded please if there are any.

 

 

Again thanks for replies

 

 

 

 

[StuntMan0369]

One thing to note, Cleveland will still out-DPM the Buyonny thanks to it's extra turret, it just need to get a bit closer to do it. Also of note, Budyonny's turret placement means you need to expose more of a broadside to get your rear turret shooting the enemy, Cleveland doesn't need as much (30 degrees for Cleveland, 40 degrees for Budyonny).

 

As for the time of the OP Cleveland, I believe it was around about the time the game hit Open Beta. I remember playing her in CBT, the ship was an absolute monster. It's been nerfed a fair bit, but it just requires a change in playstyle compared to her CBT days. I still find her one of the most fun cruisers in the game, and there are situations where I know the only reason I survive/win is because I'm in a Cleveland - Aoba and Nurnberg wouldn't have. Also, just fyi, technically she just got a buff with the better Ctrl targeting bonus for AA, so it's not always nerfs. 

[dude1416]

One thing to note, Cleveland will still out-DPM the Buyonny thanks to it's extra turret, it just need to get a bit closer to do it. Also of note, Budyonny's turret placement means you need to expose more of a broadside to get your rear turret shooting the enemy, Cleveland doesn't need as much (30 degrees for Cleveland, 40 degrees for Budyonny).

 

As for the time of the OP Cleveland, I believe it was around about the time the game hit Open Beta. I remember playing her in CBT, the ship was an absolute monster. It's been nerfed a fair bit, but it just requires a change in playstyle compared to her CBT days. I still find her one of the most fun cruisers in the game, and there are situations where I know the only reason I survive/win is because I'm in a Cleveland - Aoba and Nurnberg wouldn't have. Also, just fyi, technically she just got a buff with the better Ctrl targeting bonus for AA, so it's not always nerfs. 

 

Hello StuntMan0363.

 

So since it was downgraded just before it was open for commanders like myself to play ,then could you please send me the many links im sure there was many of members crying out for the Cleveland to be the way it is now?.

 

 

Again thanks for reply to topic

 

 

[JeeWeeJ]

 

Hello StuntMan0363.

 

So since it was downgraded just before it was open for commanders like myself to play ,then could you please send me the many links im sure there was many of members crying out for the Cleveland to be the way it is now?.

 

 

Again thanks for reply to topic

 

 

 

Those topics were all in the Alpha and Beta sections of the forum, but those have been purged a while back. Perhaps you'll still be able to find some on the NA forums, I think they still have those sections up.

[Beerbulance]

Remember the budyonny got 140 mm citadel armor and its shell trajectory is quite flat.

I keep her angled all time and it just shrugs off enemy fire.

Its fun to play her, but i think she ll get a nerf, so be quick and get her

[dude1416]

Remember the budyonny got 140 mm citadel armor and its shell trajectory is quite flat.

I keep her angled all time and it just shrugs off enemy fire.

Its fun to play her, but i think she ll get a nerf, so be quick and get her

 

 Hello commander Beerbulance

So whats the  Budyonny shell grouping like at full range and what is the grouping like at 14km and 10km range ?.

Same question about the RU tier V Cruiser?.

Thanks for the information

 

 

 

 

 

[Beerbulance]

Shell grouping? I think you mean the dispersion, dont you?

This ship is quite precise, means low dispersion on range. Fighting below 10 km, is deadly for enemy dd and cruiser, your shells are just going straight. Compared to a cleveland, on max range it is easier to hit targets.

 

Now, you asked for the tier 5, the kirov, well my advise for it, stay behind. You got those 180 mm guns, great guns, no question. BUT, your thickest armor is 50 mm, and 15 secs reload. I received citadels from the front, and even HE impacts destroying your engine or rudder pretty fast. Its a tough and not an easy grind, but worth it for the budyonny

[dude1416]

Shell grouping? I think you mean the dispersion, dont you?

This ship is quite precise, means low dispersion on range. Fighting below 10 km, is deadly for enemy dd and cruiser, your shells are just going straight. Compared to a cleveland, on max range it is easier to hit targets.

 

Now, you asked for the tier 5, the kirov, well my advise for it, stay behind. You got those 180 mm guns, great guns, no question. BUT, your thickest armor is 50 mm, and 15 secs reload. I received citadels from the front, and even HE impacts destroying your engine or rudder pretty fast. Its a tough and not an easy grind, but worth it for the budyonny

 

What I mean by grouping is when the shell reach your target.

Are they bunched up close together like the Cleveland shells were at full range and like at 14km and 10km?

 

[dude1416]

 

Those topics were all in the Alpha and Beta sections of the forum, but those have been purged a while back. Perhaps you'll still be able to find some on the NA forums, I think they still have those sections up.

 

Yes I have found other server talking about the Cleveland and the way it was and didn't really find anyone really complaining about it.

So going by what they were saying I can only assume that there wasn't much complaining about it on here untill wg were going to make it so anyone could join.

The only thing I saw someone gripe about was its citadel back then was hard to hit and like it was pointed out that the commanders that wouldn't like the Cleveland would be the commanders that liked playing DDs and Cruisers with torpedoes which reading on here there are many of.

 

 

So could be seen as from a new commanders point of view that some had a influence on having it messed up so we are unable to do to them what they could do to each other.

 

 

Also if correct the Clevelands single winged plane was a spotting plane not the twin winged one protecting the Cleveland we have now.

 

 

If the Cleveland now had a range of 16km, the shells not flying skyward but flatter as what the RU and GN  tier VI have ,then I may be agreeing with you all.

In my opinion since its been downgraded the way it is now compared to how you enjoyed it the way it was should be called now "USN Once Was".

[dude1416]

If you go by the RU Cruisers tier VI to VIII concealment detectability range is VI 13.1km VII 13,3km VIII 13.3km.

GU Cruiser tier V to VII V 12.4km VI 12.6km VII  13.9 km

Clevelands is 13.3km.

So RU VI can detect Cleveland before Cleveland detects it and all three have a much higher range advantage.

GR from V to VI can also detect the Cleveland way before the Cleveland is able to detect them and they both have a much higher range advantage over the Cleveland.

 

So RU and GR have better range spot sooner ,flatter flight of shells and faster and you say its balanced.

 

If I am using RU GR cruisers all I have to do is stay away from 10km and just keep firing HE and watch the Cleveland burn and when it is in range then I know that if I didn't avoid the clevelands shell that may be at 14km only one or two shells may hit.

 

So like said before to me as a new commander its not balanced.

[StuntMan0369]

The only thing I saw someone gripe about was its citadel back then was hard to hit and like it was pointed out that the commanders that wouldn't like the Cleveland would be the commanders that liked playing DDs and Cruisers with torpedoes which reading on here there are many of.

 

Oh yeah, Cleveland was infamous for being difficult to citadel, as it was known for it's unique citadel shape. In reality though, catching a Cleveland in the broadside still rewarded you with citadels, just not as easily as say the Pensacola and New Orleans above it.

 

Also if correct the Clevelands single winged plane was a spotting plane not the twin winged one protecting the Cleveland we have now.

 

I wouldn't get too hung up on the plane; at the end of the day, it's an extra bit of DPS vs incoming aircraft and also a panic mode should your Defensive AA be on cooldown. I notice no real difference between it's CBT days and now, I'm sure it's stats have changed a bit, but it still does the same exact purpose as before.

 

If the Cleveland now had a range of 16km, the shells not flying skyward but flatter as what the RU and GN  tier VI have ,then I may be agreeing with you all.

In my opinion since its been downgraded the way it is now compared to how you enjoyed it the way it was should be called now "USN Once Was".

 

The current Cleveland's shell trajectory is it's biggest downside. And it's not like that's a major problem either, cruisers firing at max range will always have trouble hitting their counterparts no matter what guns they're using. Cleveland's is just a little more severe, but it's just something to learn and get used to. You can still hose down a BB from max range, avoid all incoming fire and absolutely destroy them whilst taking minimal damage in return. Cleveland is still strong for a tier 6, it's reputation has slowly been revoked to an infamous history, but underestimate this ship at your peril.

 

If I am using RU GR cruisers all I have to do is stay away from 10km and just keep firing HE and watch the Cleveland burn and when it is in range then I know that if I didn't avoid the clevelands shell that may be at 14km only one or two shells may hit.

 

This is the ideal situation. However, how often are you going to be one-on-one with a Cleveland? If the Cleveland has any sense at all, he will never be off on his own as the ship is still one of the best escort ships in the game, and is best served next to his fellow BB's. Also, at the range you're describing, the Cleveland can very well just start retreating, stop firing and vanish from detection unless you have back-up in the form of someone else spotting him (although this is no longer a one-on-one situation, so of course the Cleveland is screwed, no matter what ship he's in).

 

Going back to the one-on-one situation though - what do you do? The Cleveland will obviously want to close distance, lets say he has and you are both sailing towards each other. The Cleveland has a great turret position of 30º and can easily close the angle at a moments notice. This makes AP next to useless. So, switch to HE right? Well, at a narrow angle, you've got less area to hit, and even then, German HE is pretty poor performance. 'Aha, but I have torpedoes!' I hear you say. Well, if the Cleveland has any brains whatsoever, he'll know the second you fire them off and almost certainly dodge them. The Russians and Japanese have bad torp angles, so you'll have to show a lot of broadside to launch them anyway (Hello citadels). The Germans have great angles, but again, torping a cruiser who knows what they're doing is easier said than done. All the while, you are getting hammered by 12 shells every 8 seconds and the RU and KM cruisers have such poor armour, HE is going to do a lot of damage, even on angled main belts.

 

Tl;dr - Ideal circumstances are always favourable, but it's captain skill that determines who has the advantage. The ship helps of course, but when you see a new player with an Atago make fundamental errors, not even the ship will save you from poor play.

[dude1416]

Ok with the Clevelands state its in now which ship would you rather be using if your the last ship left and talking about against each other

1/ USN Cruiser tier VI

2/ GR Cruiser tier VI

3/ RU Cruiser tier VI

 

Also at 14km which ships shells would most likely hit the target with more shells in 2min

1/USN Cruiser tier VI

2/GN Cruiser tier VI

3/ RU Cruiser tier VI

 

Out of all three tier VI ships which is able to detect and hit there target first to set fires

1/USN Cruiser

2/GR Cruiser

3/RU Cruiser

 

Which ship if spotted is able to get away faster to get out of its hitting range

1/ USN Cruiser tier VI

2/GR Cruiser tier VI

3/RU Cruiser tier VI.

 

 

 

 

 

[StuntMan0369]

Going in order;

 

1. I'd take the Cleveland. I've had many circumstances similar to that, and the Cleveland is very capable for it. The German Nurnberg is a close second though, the AP potential on that thing is not be ignored (Depsite it's HE drawback).

2. I'm rarely shooting at 14km at cruisers, but I imagine I'd take the Russian Budyonny. Sure I lose out the extra turret of Cleveland, but if I'm in a long-range battle with a cruiser, that extra turret makes little difference.

3. Getting the first strike is important, but since I'm not usually the one leading the charge doing the spotting in any cruiser, I'd take the Japanese Aoba (Not sure why you've left her off this comparison). Sure, she only gets 6 guns, but with the right crew, her fire chance is great and her detection range makes her one of the best stealth cruisers.

4. Again, this is the Aoba. The low detection range is great for getting out of a sticky situation. It's one of the most useful features of the IJN cruisers, other than their fearsome 8" guns.

 

The great thing about cruisers is their versatility. Any cruiser can work in almost any situation, it's just a case of which one is ever so slightly better in each scenario. The smart captains are the ones who force the favourable situations, as they know their ships capabilities.

[dude1416]

Going in order;

 

1. I'd take the Cleveland. I've had many circumstances similar to that, and the Cleveland is very capable for it. The German Nurnberg is a close second though, the AP potential on that thing is not be ignored (Depsite it's HE drawback).

2. I'm rarely shooting at 14km at cruisers, but I imagine I'd take the Russian Budyonny. Sure I lose out the extra turret of Cleveland, but if I'm in a long-range battle with a cruiser, that extra turret makes little difference.

3. Getting the first strike is important, but since I'm not usually the one leading the charge doing the spotting in any cruiser, I'd take the Japanese Aoba (Not sure why you've left her off this comparison). Sure, she only gets 6 guns, but with the right crew, her fire chance is great and her detection range makes her one of the best stealth cruisers.

4. Again, this is the Aoba. The low detection range is great for getting out of a sticky situation. It's one of the most useful features of the IJN cruisers, other than their fearsome 8" guns.

 

The great thing about cruisers is their versatility. Any cruiser can work in almost any situation, it's just a case of which one is ever so slightly better in each scenario. The smart captains are the ones who force the favourable situations, as they know their ships capabilities.

 

 

The smart captain with the NU and GN tier VI Cruiser will stay at range and kick the hell out of a once was great cruiser the tier VI Cleveland.

Got what they wanted

 

 

[StuntMan0369]

 

 

The smart captain with the NU and GN tier VI Cruiser will stay at range and kick the hell out of a once was great cruiser the tier VI Cleveland.

Got what they wanted

 

 

 

Watched those videos through, I don't see anything out of the ordinary there. Most of the cruisers that got shot were broadside on, and failing to manoeuvre properly. The shell arcs are certainly impressive, don't get me wrong, but normal evasive and defensive manoeuvres will still render them rather useless. Unfortunately, those videos didn't show many examples of it (the captains of the ships in the videos were doing the right things, hence why they were alive and shooting). I've stuck with the Cleveland since her CBT days and she is still a great ship. Does the Budyonny now beat her? Maybe, she is certainly more adaptable in a long range engagement (good for higher tier matches). I'll still be sailing the Cleveland though. If you really want a long lost ship, look at Yubari - that's a far more tragic story.

[dude1416]

 

Watched those videos through, I don't see anything out of the ordinary there. Most of the cruisers that got shot were broadside on, and failing to manoeuvre properly. The shell arcs are certainly impressive, don't get me wrong, but normal evasive and defensive manoeuvres will still render them rather useless. Unfortunately, those videos didn't show many examples of it (the captains of the ships in the videos were doing the right things, hence why they were alive and shooting). I've stuck with the Cleveland since her CBT days and she is still a great ship. Does the Budyonny now beat her? Maybe, she is certainly more adaptable in a long range engagement (good for higher tier matches). I'll still be sailing the Cleveland though. If you really want a long lost ship, look at Yubari - that's a far more tragic story.

 

Its not so much what I saw its what was said about what can do to a Cleveland because of the range.

Saying what I was saying and I haven't even got to the RU tier IV yet.

Yes I agree that the tier V VI IJN are out matched by the new power ships from GR RU.

The USN and IJN should get a bit better range and since Cleveland can get spotted by them sooner even more so.

But only the new commanders would want that if all would be honest.

If the ships were the way they are now the commanders that were playing the game when it was closed wouldn't have the stats they have now.

I am not saying to put the ships back the way they were but some ships have been screwed up to much for us new commanders in my opinion and this is why im really having a hard time to decide if really worth spending anymore money on this game .

[StuntMan0369]

 

Its not so much what I saw its what was said about what can do to a Cleveland because of the range.

Saying what I was saying and I haven't even got to the RU tier IV yet.

Yes I agree that the tier V VI IJN are out matched by the new power ships from GR RU.

The USN and IJN should get a bit better range and since Cleveland can get spotted by them sooner even more so.

But only the new commanders would want that if all would be honest.

If the ships were the way they are now the commanders that were playing the game when it was closed wouldn't have the stats they have now.

I am not saying to put the ships back the way they were but some ships have been screwed up to much for us new commanders in my opinion and this is why im really having a hard time to decide if really worth spending anymore money on this game .

 

Well, that's nothing really new there, all the previous tier 6 cruisers could walk over a Cleveland if done correctly, and vice versa for the other ships. The Budyonny has the advantage of using it's range in an engagement, but at the cost of AA, armour (Cleveland does surprisingly well for a cruiser, as well as it's citadel) and a 4th turret. Not to forget, Budyonny is not exactly the most agile of cruisers, over 11 second rudder shift before upgrades and a larger turning circle compared to Cleveland (660 vs 710).

 

Speaking for the tier 5 and 6 IJN cruisers; They've been left behind?! Hell no! 8" guns at tier 5 and 6 is still incredibly devastating. Furutaka has an awkward layout, but it's manageable. Aoba gets a great reload for 8" guns, and the traverse isn't that big of a downside (2 front mounted, so only 1 turret is realistically affected in most scenarios). 8" HE is monstrous, thinly armoured cruisers like Nurnberg and Budyonny will suffer a lot from it. Given the IJN have the stealth advantage too, they are likely to get the first shots off and dictate the flow of the engagement. It's a different play style, and it's the learning of each ships play style that makes the game dynamic and balanced.

 

If it was up to me to make ANY changes to the tier 5 and 6 cruisers, here's my list:

• Cleveland max range to 15km (+0.4km), but the same shell arc
• Nerf Budyonny's detection range to 13.5km (+0.3km)
• Buff Furutaka detection to 11.8km (-0.4km)

 

Other than that, I can't find any stat to change that wouldn't mess up the balance. Here's how I see the cruiser lines right now;

• USN - Escort ships, phenomenal AA with good artillery to counter DD's
• IJN - Stealth cruisers, opportunity hunters with some of the best fire-power at mid tier, and a nasty surprise of offensive torpedoes
• KM - Long range hunters, but great cruiser killers with superb AP performance at the cost of their HE capability
• SN  - Good all-rounder with great gun performance, but less manoeuvrability and only short range self defence torps.

[dude1416]

 

Well, that's nothing really new there, all the previous tier 6 cruisers could walk over a Cleveland if done correctly, and vice versa for the other ships. The Budyonny has the advantage of using it's range in an engagement, but at the cost of AA, armour (Cleveland does surprisingly well for a cruiser, as well as it's citadel) and a 4th turret. Not to forget, Budyonny is not exactly the most agile of cruisers, over 11 second rudder shift before upgrades and a larger turning circle compared to Cleveland (660 vs 710).

 

Speaking for the tier 5 and 6 IJN cruisers; They've been left behind?! Hell no! 8" guns at tier 5 and 6 is still incredibly devastating. Furutaka has an awkward layout, but it's manageable. Aoba gets a great reload for 8" guns, and the traverse isn't that big of a downside (2 front mounted, so only 1 turret is realistically affected in most scenarios). 8" HE is monstrous, thinly armoured cruisers like Nurnberg and Budyonny will suffer a lot from it. Given the IJN have the stealth advantage too, they are likely to get the first shots off and dictate the flow of the engagement. It's a different play style, and it's the learning of each ships play style that makes the game dynamic and balanced.

 

If it was up to me to make ANY changes to the tier 5 and 6 cruisers, here's my list:

• Cleveland max range to 15km (+0.4km), but the same shell arc
• Nerf Budyonny's detection range to 13.5km (+0.3km)
• Buff Furutaka detection to 11.8km (-0.4km)

 

Other than that, I can't find any stat to change that wouldn't mess up the balance. Here's how I see the cruiser lines right now;

• USN - Escort ships, phenomenal AA with good artillery to counter DD's
• IJN - Stealth cruisers, opportunity hunters with some of the best fire-power at mid tier, and a nasty surprise of offensive torpedoes
• KM - Long range hunters, but great cruiser killers with superb AP performance at the cost of their HE capability
• SN  - Good all-rounder with great gun performance, but less manoeuvrability and only short range self defence torps.

 

15km to 15.3km range I would agree with but why would you want to keep the arc ?.

Did when game was closed have such a arc ? and if not why didn't it then ?.

I think that even putting the range upto 15km wouldn't make that much difo because of the arc since the other two are a lot flatter with more range and still able to spot Cleveland before Cleveland can spot any of them.

Also you say about the AA of a Cleveland.

Yes they are good but we are talking random battles here not real life scenarios or platoon battles.

I must have only been in a hand full if that of battles in random that commanders do what should be doing in the ship they chose to play in.

Then you have the missions that WG bring into the game that get players to decide not to play the role of the ship.

So yes AA are good but only if a mission would be if you have to play the role of what the ships are meant for.

Setting X amount of fires, so you have a BB only using HE is stupid but that's what happens instead of to win.

I don't play missions and will never do because I beleave its a team game not to get extra ships or bonuses.