PROPOSAL: Full German Capital Ships Line (BB/BC)

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

My conclusion based on this:

Regular tech tree will be Gneisenau with 6 x 380 mm and 2 engine options (stock & elite)

Scharnhorst will be premium with 9 x 283 mmm but WG has not yet figured it out balance wise if it should get stock or elite engine. 

i actually hope not... but if the evidences point out in that direction i can only say: WG get some common sense... Especially when the thing starts wihtout atlantic bow but has a later planned upgunning... and Scharnhorst is simply a far more beatufilu name... really... Scharnhorst should be in the normal tree...

[1MajorKoenig]

 

One of the names Scharnhorst and Gneisenau has to be used for the WW1 armoured Cruiser class as well, so if Scharnhorst is the tech tree ship at tier 7 for the German BB line, then Gneisenau should be the armoured Cruiser. This leaves Ersatz Yorck for a potential BC line, and L20A as premium. 

If need be then Scharnhorst and L20A could be swapped.

 

I couldn't agree more with you but I am afraid that both names will be used for The KM Capital ship class - one as premium with a little goodie to make the Fan boys spend another 50 Euros and the other one in the regular tree.

 

Kinda sad that WG has no sweet spot for the good old times! Would love to see the 1906 Scharnhorst!!!

 

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

 

I couldn't agree more with you but I am afraid that both names will be used for The KM Capital ship class - one as premium with a little goodie to make the Fan boys spend another 50 Euros and the other one in the regular tree.

 

and as it seems that lil Goodie will be 9 28cm Guns... and the fact that it was the lead ship of the class

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

Based on the leaked data, we can extract the following: 

Scharnhorst has two engine entries, one 125000 PS (stock) and one 160000 PS (elite). But premiums do not have upgrade options.

There is an entry which suggests the 380 mm L/52 on tier 7, which would represent the planned main battery swap.

There are also "non-ship-specific" entries of these 125000 and 160000 PS engines on tier 7.

But OTOH, there is no "non-ship-specific" entry of the 283 mm L/54, which suggests these guns will not appear in the tech tree.

 

My conclusion based on this:

Regular tech tree will be Gneisenau with 6 x 380 mm and 2 engine options (stock & elite)

Scharnhorst will be premium with 9 x 283 mmm but WG has not yet figured it out balance wise if it should get stock or elite engine. 

 

 

I hope not. That would be a weird split considering the 283mm guns were the ones actually used and the 380mm guns were at best a hopeful conversion never even properly started.

 

But I can see it from the economic viewpoint. The 283s would present a different playstyle, while the 380s would just be another set or somewhat normal guns with little of interest to mark them as special.

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

But I can see it from the economic viewpoint. The 283s would present a different playstyle, while the 380s would just be another set or somewhat normal guns with little of interest to mark them as special.

 

yeah.. will be fun to drvie 6 38cm Guns VS 8 41cm Guns... 6 38s on Tier VI i could see (possibly even Tier V but that would be overkill with the rest of the Scharnhorst class advantages iguess)... but not at Tier VII

[VC381]

 

yeah.. will be fun to drvie 6 38cm Guns VS 8 41cm Guns... 6 38s on Tier VI i could see (possibly even Tier V but that would be overkill with the rest of the Scharnhorst class advantages iguess)... but not at Tier VII

 

Well, Tirpitz is a bit under-armed for her tier but still pretty strong. It will just be the German "thing" to have smaller and/or fewer guns but excellent traverse/RoF/arcs/pen etc. Scharnhorst is faster than Tirpitz (I really hope they give her 32 knots) and has basically equivalent armor, would work as Tier 7 I think.

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

 

Well, Tirpitz is a bit under-armed for her tier but still pretty strong. It will just be the German "thing" to have smaller and/or fewer guns but excellent traverse/RoF/arcs/pen etc. Scharnhorst is faster than Tirpitz (I really hope they give her 32 knots) and has basically equivalent armor, would work as Tier 7 I think.

 

the 6 38s will be screwed... with the 9 28s you could alas hunt cruiser, potentially even DDs effectively and be nasty against BBs when close enough.. iwth the 6 guns i am quite pessimistic. also dont forget that theGneisenau would still face Tier VIII and IX... that means 6 38cm VS 9 to 12 40,6/41cm guns...

[1MajorKoenig]

 

My conclusion based on this:

Regular tech tree will be Gneisenau with 6 x 380 mm and 2 engine options (stock & elite)

Scharnhorst will be premium with 9 x 283 mmm but WG has not yet figured it out balance wise if it should get stock or elite engine. 

 

 

Hmmmm.... If your conclusion is correct I have doubts we will see a really unique Premium either. They talked about 2-3, one BB, one CA and one which can't be classified properly. That would mean: Scharnhorst as the BB, Prinz Eugen or Lützow (15cm MA) as CA and Deutschland/ Graf Spee as The "Special" one, so more or less reskinned ships already available.

 

Why not: Derfflinger aus The BB and eg. SMS Blücher or Scharnhorst 1906 als the premiums? The older ships are a little underrepresented!

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

 

Hmmmm.... If your conclusion is correct I have doubts we will see a really unique Premium either. They talked about 2-3, one BB, one CA and one which can't be classified properly. That would mean: Scharnhorst as the BB, Prinz Eugen or Lützow (15cm MA) as CA and Deutschland/ Graf Spee as The "Special" one, so more or less reskinned ships already available.

 

Why not: Derfflinger aus The BB and eg. SMS Blücher or Scharnhorst 1906 als the premiums? The older ships are a little underrepresented!

 

why Derffligner? Why not the SMS Lützow? Derfflinger could then be in the BC tree when it comes. also Scharnhorst would most likely not be reskinned but have the actualy armament (and that already would be a reason to buy it for me...)

 

and i'd bet that NONE of those prems will be available for the whole time... and germany "needs" more prems... compare the amount of prems germany has to the other nations... the only nation that has less is poland... Asia and Britain having the same amount and then... well...

[BuccaneerBill]

 

Well, Tirpitz is a bit under-armed for her tier but still pretty strong. It will just be the German "thing" to have smaller and/or fewer guns but excellent traverse/RoF/arcs/pen etc. Scharnhorst is faster than Tirpitz (I really hope they give her 32 knots) and has basically equivalent armor, would work as Tier 7 I think.

 

Well Scharnhorst has that 45mm upper belt, which was upgraded to 145mm on the Bismarck. I can see quite a few citadel's coming from this, I certainly wouldn't want to be side on mid to long range. Up close though and it'll be near impossible to citadel, another brawler maybe?

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

Well Scharnhorst has that 45mm upper belt, which was upgraded to 145mm on the Bismarck. I can see quite a few citadel's coming from this, I certainly wouldn't want to be side on mid to long range. Up close though and it'll be near impossible to citadel, another brawler maybe?

 

That 45mm isn't anything unusual. Montana and Iowa has 38mm upper 'belt' (it can hardly be called belt), even Yamato only has 32mm up there. She will not be citadelled through it, as the angles required to hit it and then be able to get through the citadel roof would be too high to actually penetrate the 45mm itself (the autobounce feature). Besides, it is highly unlikely that any shell will drop with enough of a downward arc to actually be able to not be autobounced by the citadel roof.

You could of course argue that cruiser can deliver heavy AP salvos into the side, but that is true for any battleship actually.

 

Having a weak upper belt isn't going to be a serious problem. It will naturally not be super awesome, but many battleships have even less protection there and they don't suffer particular citadels through those areas.

[1MajorKoenig]

 

why Derffligner? Why not the SMS Lützow? Derfflinger could then be in the BC tree when it comes. also Scharnhorst would most likely not be reskinned but have the actualy armament (and that already would be a reason to buy it for me...)

 

and i'd bet that NONE of those prems will be available for the whole time... and germany "needs" more prems... compare the amount of prems germany has to the other nations... the only nation that has less is poland... Asia and Britain having the same amount and then... well...

 

SMS Lützow would be equally fine!

 

I simply don't want to wait for a possible BC line release in earliest 2018 or so :-(

 

Similar to Tirpitz - those who bought it got it one year or a half earlier before the rest can take Bismarck out for a free ride. 

[506_Mephisto]

Not to mention that we got the 100th anniversary of Jutland this year, making a german battlecruiser fit very well... Would be such a missed opportunity.

They even gave us the Mikasa at the 110th Tsushima anniversary...

[BuccaneerBill]

 

That 45mm isn't anything unusual. Montana and Iowa has 38mm upper 'belt' (it can hardly be called belt), even Yamato only has 32mm up there. She will not be citadelled through it, as the angles required to hit it and then be able to get through the citadel roof would be too high to actually penetrate the 45mm itself (the autobounce feature). Besides, it is highly unlikely that any shell will drop with enough of a downward arc to actually be able to not be autobounced by the citadel roof.

You could of course argue that cruiser can deliver heavy AP salvos into the side, but that is true for any battleship actually.

 

Having a weak upper belt isn't going to be a serious problem. It will naturally not be super awesome, but many battleships have even less protection there and they don't suffer particular citadels through those areas.

 

The upper belt on the Scharnhorst is a big deal because its part of the citadel protection, where it is not on the other ships as they use an all or nothing armour scheme. Take the Yamato, you penetrate the 32mm, you've then going to hit 200mm of deck armour iirc so gl with that. With the Scharnhorst, once you get through the 45mm, you have only 80mm of deck over the engine rooms as you completely miss out the 50mm weather deck. The KGV for example had a 127mm armoured deck over the engine rooms. So essentially a BB shell will only have to penetrate 80mm of deck to citadel Scharnhorst. Have to see at what ranges this is possible with the game mechanics. But that wont matter if it hits its boiler hump ;). Theirs a reason why it was increased to 145mm on the Bismarck class.

[Eerieness]

Which version of the Blücher are on that proposal?

[1MajorKoenig]

Which version of the Blücher are on that proposal?

 

It is the last SMS armored cruiser from 1908 which pretty much paved they way for the German battlecruisers. 

 

Within the proposal it is part of the "big-gun" cruiser line at T5. Relatively fast, 6 x 210mm Yorck turrets and lots of armor. She would mark the break in the line towards the lightly armored but heavily armed Panzer cruisers.

[Eerieness]

In the layout from Trigger, its in the same tree as Roon and Adm Hipper. Is his version also the SMS? That tree seems alil , lets say "strange".

Although Blücher, sunk in 1940, isnt perticular popular, it really was quite a ship, on par with Adm. H.

Proposed prem? Your thoughts?

 

[Trainspite]

In the layout from Trigger, its in the same tree as Roon and Adm Hipper. Is his version also the SMS? That tree seems alil , lets say "strange".

Although Blücher, sunk in 1940, isnt perticular popular, it really was quite a ship, on par with Adm. H.

Proposed prem? Your thoughts?

 

 

Blücher as a name should be reserved for the SMS Armoured Cruiser really, the later Admiral Hipper class cruiser of the same name is not exactly a good choice for a premium candidate, as it rules out (at least for now) the old armoured cruiser appearing, but also there is a better choice for a tier 8 premium German CA, in the form of Prinz Eugen. A more famous ship means she will sell better for WG, while Blücher wasn't as famous. (Getting sunk in Norway with Konigsberg, Karlsruhe and 10 Destroyers does not help)

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

The upper belt on the Scharnhorst is a big deal because its part of the citadel protection, where it is not on the other ships as they use an all or nothing armour scheme. Take the Yamato, you penetrate the 32mm, you've then going to hit 200mm of deck armour iirc so gl with that. With the Scharnhorst, once you get through the 45mm, you have only 80mm of deck over the engine rooms as you completely miss out the 50mm weather deck. The KGV for example had a 127mm armoured deck over the engine rooms. So essentially a BB shell will only have to penetrate 80mm of deck to citadel Scharnhorst. Have to see at what ranges this is possible with the game mechanics. But that wont matter if it hits its boiler hump ;). Theirs a reason why it was increased to 145mm on the Bismarck class.

 

Because of the way the mechanics about autobounces and overmatches work, it will not be a problem. Nothing overmatches 80mm. And in order to penetrate both the 45mm and 80mm without bouncing, a shell has to come down at about 45 degrees. Even the orbital strikes that Gearing with AFT manages doesn't come down at more than about 30 degrees. Either one or the other will bounce the incoming shell.

Regarding the little raised section near the funnel uptake, like Duke of York you will have to be incredibly lucky to hit it, if it will even be modelled. Even if modelled I would say it is a small price to pay for having such superior armour otherwise. The only time there is a realistic risk to her would be at the absolute furthest ranges from higher tier ships such as North Carolina (due to her slow shells they tend to come down at a steeper angle), and as we know, at long ranges, even hitting is largely a matter of RNG. Chances would be in favour of hitting the 50mm deck and bouncing (or overpenning the superstructure), as the 45mm section is quite small comparably, and then even if it is hit, the shell has to hit the citadel roof close enough to the raised section instead of just passing over it.

It will be much like the forward magazines of Tirpitz. It will be common enough so people know it can happen, but not common enough that you can specifically aim for it.

 

In real life it was a fatal flaw, that eventually caused the sinking of Scharnhorst, but in the game it will play a rather small role.

 

The upper belt on the Bismarcks wasn't there to protect her from large caliber shells. For that purpose 145mm was simply nowhere near enough. The British knew about this (as can be seen in the 1920 mock-up trials of HMS Hood's armour scheme where she was penetrated through the upper belt that was 7 inches thick at angles that were very likely in battle), and it is highly unlikely that the Germans were unaware of it. It was to protect her from cruisers and destroyers penetrating her non citadel hull spaces and setting them on fire etc. Something it actually did quite well.

[BuccaneerBill]

 

Because of the way the mechanics about autobounces and overmatches work, it will not be a problem. Nothing overmatches 80mm. And in order to penetrate both the 45mm and 80mm without bouncing, a shell has to come down at about 45 degrees. Even the orbital strikes that Gearing with AFT manages doesn't come down at more than about 30 degrees. Either one or the other will bounce the incoming shell.

Regarding the little raised section near the funnel uptake, like Duke of York you will have to be incredibly lucky to hit it, if it will even be modelled. Even if modelled I would say it is a small price to pay for having such superior armour otherwise. The only time there is a realistic risk to her would be at the absolute furthest ranges from higher tier ships such as North Carolina (due to her slow shells they tend to come down at a steeper angle), and as we know, at long ranges, even hitting is largely a matter of RNG. Chances would be in favour of hitting the 50mm deck and bouncing (or overpenning the superstructure), as the 45mm section is quite small comparably, and then even if it is hit, the shell has to hit the citadel roof close enough to the raised section instead of just passing over it.

It will be much like the forward magazines of Tirpitz. It will be common enough so people know it can happen, but not common enough that you can specifically aim for it.

 

In real life it was a fatal flaw, that eventually caused the sinking of Scharnhorst, but in the game it will play a rather small role.

 

The upper belt on the Bismarcks wasn't there to protect her from large caliber shells. For that purpose 145mm was simply nowhere near enough. The British knew about this (as can be seen in the 1920 mock-up trials of HMS Hood's armour scheme where she was penetrated through the upper belt that was 7 inches thick at angles that were very likely in battle), and it is highly unlikely that the Germans were unaware of it. It was to protect her from cruisers and destroyers penetrating her non citadel hull spaces and setting them on fire etc. Something it actually did quite well.

Well the North Carolina can pen the 45mm side and 80mm deck from about 14km looking at the pen data, so not that far. That doesn't include the raised section, just a straight pen. Interesting to see how that equates in game.

 

The Bismarck's 145mm would stop a long range BB shell penetrating the 80mm deck  whilst the 45mm wouldnt. No ones talking about 145mm or 7 inches stopping a BB shell dead, its just part of the incremental citadel protection ships like Bismarck and Hood had. 

[Unintentional_submarine]

Well the North Carolina can pen the 45mm side and 80mm deck from about 14km looking at the pen data, so not that far. That doesn't include the raised section, just a straight pen. Interesting to see how that equates in game.

 

The Bismarck's 145mm would stop a long range BB shell penetrating the 80mm deck  whilst the 45mm wouldnt. No ones talking about 145mm or 7 inches stopping a BB shell dead, its just part of the incremental citadel protection ships like Bismarck and Hood had. 

 

All right, it seems you are unaware of the game mechanics.

The overmatch mechanic is the amount of armour a shell can 'ignore' and not get autobounced on. The way it is calculated is shell diameter divided by 14.3. That means Yamato can overmatch 32mm, and is the reason she is able to citadel pretty much everyone from very odd angles. Conversely the various 16 inchers can't overmatch that, so most high tier battleships can simply angle against them and get bounces instead.

Bounces happen under two conditions. A) When a shell can't penetrate the armour. B) When a shell strikes a surface at a sharp enough angle that it can't overmatch.

The latter is the important bit, as the angles where a shell starts to bounce begins around 50 degrees I believe and autobounce at 60 degrees (USN Cruisers start at 60 degrees and autobounce at 67 degrees).

It is the mechanic that makes Tirpitz so frustratingly hard to citadel. The turtleback deck behind the main belt simply autobounces everything that can penetrate the main belt. And anything that penetrates the upper belt bounces off the roof of the citadel.

 

So, in order to penetrate the 80mm armour deck, a North Carolina shell needs to have a fall of at least 40 degrees (and even then it would bounce most often). That can only really happen if said North Carolina has equipped the range modification and a spotter plane. If they are not equipped, it won't go beyond 30 degrees (actually a bit less), and North Carolina is the one with the highest ballistic arc of all the battleships Scharnhorst can meet. All the others can't even get close.

Thus, in order to citadel Scharnhorst from a distance through the 45mm belt a shell has to hit the raised bit, which is going to happen now and then (presuming it will be modelled) but not something you can expect very often, as the conditions where you can do so are rather limited and at ranges where it isn't something you can aim for.

Also, the raised section is rather short, from about the forward 150mm secondary to halfways between the funnel and the rear 150mm turret. That is not even a third of the entire citadel length. I wouldn't worry about it much.

This 'weakness' compared to being functionally impossible to citadel otherwise is well worth it.

[1MajorKoenig]

In the layout from Trigger, its in the same tree as Roon and Adm Hipper. Is his version also the SMS? That tree seems alil , lets say "strange".

Although Blücher, sunk in 1940, isnt perticular popular, it really was quite a ship, on par with Adm. H.

Proposed prem? Your thoughts?

 

 

It is probably. SMS Blücher and Adm Hipper use a similar gun calibre around 20cm.

 

The proposal here is about both cruiser lines evolving into heavier Main armament on high tiers. The "lighter line evolves from the WW1 105mm through the standard 150mm into the "treaty-Heavy" 20cm. Similar to the Lines available today.

The Second "big-gun" line evolves from the WW1 style 21cm guns all the way down the Panzer cruiser calibers. Which would make for an entirely different playstyle.

 

With regards to potential premium ships I would like to see:

 

- one or two carriers (at minimum Graf Zeppelin)

- the 15cm armed version of Hipper called Lützow 

- the L20a battleship design 

- SMS Helgoland

- and of course a WW1 battlecruiser for the 100 year Jutland year

 

Having the Hipper-Class "Blücher" in the game doesn't give me much. I would rather save the name for the unique armored cruiser!

[mr3awsome]

That 45mm isn't anything unusual. Montana and Iowa has 38mm upper 'belt' (it can hardly be called belt), even Yamato only has 32mm up there. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know?

I don't see hte point of this as I have already pointed out why it is of little to no consequence given how the game is set up with autobounces and the overmatch mechanic. Scharnhorst isn't going to be particularly vulnerable to citadels. She will have a terribly small weakspot that can only be hit at long range. Compare that to pretty much every other battleship being vulnerable as soon as they present the broadside at any range. Talking about citadels of course. She will naturally be as vulnerable to penetration hits as anyone.

Though it should be noted that the 45mm plate isn't enough to trigger the fuse on 14 inch guns and above, so if the shell penetrates the 45mm plate, bounces off the armour deck, it isn't unlikely that it will become an overpen rather than a a penetration

[1MajorKoenig]

With regards to the leaked German BB guns I am almost sure that these are not final/ all. We have neither Nassau's nor Kaiser's gun turrets in the list although both have been mentioned in the 2016 preview video.