PROPOSAL: Full German Capital Ships Line (BB/BC)

[1MajorKoenig]

The lineup of the German Battleship tree was subject to many discussions already to date (which shows that there is a lot of interest in this line) and in general there seems to be a consensus on the estimated tech tree for a good part of the line. However the really interesting part is that Germany, similar to Great Britain, can form a parallel line of battlecruisers. Including paper proposals (SK, L, GK, etc.) there are tons of ships but I limited myself to the – in my opinion – relevant ones. Also remarkable is the difference in design philosophy between German and British battlecruisers which will hopefully be visible in the game. Famously a German Ship designer summarized these differences: “Cruiser-Battleships” vs. “Battleship-Cruisers”. A scoop of the latter is already in World of Warships, represented by the Ishizuchi and Kongo which pretty much are following the British philosophy (at least pre-refit) whereas the German battlecruisers were mandated to be able to fight in the line of battle. But as guessing is part of the fun – here is my lineup for both lines as if they would be released at the same time:

 

• T3 “NASSAU”: the first German Dreadnought has some obvious similarities to the Kawachi-Class, similar displacement at 21.000t, significantly more than South Carolina’s 17.000t, so we can expect a similar HP pool as Kawachi. The hexagonal gun layout is also very similar to the Kawachi and Nassaus’s speed would be pretty average for the first generation of dreadnoughts at 20/21 knots. The guns themselves are decent and have a fast rate of fire but are of smaller caliber (28cm SK L/45 – compared to the 30.5cm on the IJN and USN ships) so we shouldn’t expect miracles here. The AP round was reported to penetrate 200mm of armor at 12km – not sure if that will be enough as both the Nassau herself and her two opponents on T3 already have 305mm belt armor. Equally, the max damage of a 28cm shell is certainly lower than the competition but the fact can be offset to a degree by a higher rate of fire of the German guns.
• T4 “KAISER”: a big step forward in every single aspect. The Kaisers have a 27.000t displacement similar to the Wyoming so a similar HP pool is expected. The armor will be the strongest across the three T4 battleships at 350mm at the belt so there is hope that the Kaisers will be real brawlers! Speed again is average at 21 – 23 knots, so the Myogi will outrun her. Her 10 x 30.5cm SK L/50 guns are historically very strong and can be compared to the next bigger British gun, the BL 13.5 (34.3cm L/45). The 30.5cm fires at 900 mps and is reported to be able to penetrate 300mm of armor at 10km so I don’t see an issue here. As the shell was fired at pretty high velocity compared to contemporary guns we should see a flat trajectory if modelled correctly. The somewhat unusual “en-echelon” turret placement means however that only 8 out of the 10 guns can fire a broadside (theoretically all 10 but this couldn’t be proved in real live as far as I know) but the real beauty is the rate of fire at 3/min (at a lower damage in the ballpark of 8000 max though). The potentially shorter firing range due to a relatively low placement of the main range finder can be rectified by a historic upgrade to the tubular foremast that hosted an artillery director and range finder and was refitted to 2 of the Kaisers in 1918. The “Helgoland”-Class would make for an excellent T4 premium. She is similar in armor and artillery but slightly weaker due to lower speed and poor turret placement. Nevertheless an interesting and beautiful ship that deserves some recognition.
• T5 “KÖNIG”: a rather moderate improvement over the Kaisers, however, her strengths are still valid on T5. The belt armor is still a lot stronger than the competition (350mm vs. 300mm USN vs. 200mm IJN) and the rate of fire still outstanding (3rpm vs 2rpm). All 5 turrets are now on the centerline so they can be fired together which makes for another good brawler. The again smaller caliber won’t so much hurt in T5 matches but can be painful if matched up against higher tiers. HP wise it will be more of a small improvement as the displacement rose only from 27.000 to 28.600t compared to the Kaisers and her speed is only slightly higher than Kaiser’s at around 23 knots. Two main weaknesses that will be more critical on T5 will be firing range and lack of AA. The firing range can be rectified by fitting a B-Hull that includes the updated Artillery director post on the foremast that was refitted late in the war (don’t think all ships got it eventually) and that could give her a firing range well beyond 16km. For the AA piece WG will need to do some magic along the lines of some fictional auto cannons. Hope they will keep everything else realistic though, especially superstructure and hull.
• T6 “BADEN”: the HSF’s last flagship therefore I would prefer the name Baden over the first commissioned ship “Bayern”. Baden finally packs a bigger punch with her 8 x 38cm SK L/45 which are not to be confused with Tirpitz 38cm L/47 guns of a more modern design. I expect a higher shell arc compared to the 30.5cm SK L/50 which was a very high velocity gun compared to Baden’s and the rate of fire is for sure lower, somewhere like 2,3 compared to the 3 on the 30.5cm but with considerably higher max damage around 10000+. HP wise Baden will be average with her 32.000t displacement (Fuso: 29.000 before and almost 35.000 after refit). Her artillery director on top of the foremast however gives hope for a pretty decent firing range around 18km. Again I hope WG will keep the “what-if-modernization” to a minimum to keep the appearance of the ship as she was built. However, logically a hypothetical AA upgrade would be needed (some auto cannons and 88mm AA guns).
• T7 “SCHLIEFFEN” (Ersatz Yorck): technically a battlecruiser design armed with the same guns as the Baden but going a lot faster at 28 knots stock. The Ersatz Yorcks were the logical successor to the Mackensens with bigger guns. None were completed during WW1 but the ship nevertheless forms an excellent link between the slow 38cm L/45 armed superdreadnought “Baden” to the fast Battleship “Bismarck” with 38cm L/47. For the game the ship would need to receive two “what-if-modernizations”, oil fired boilers for a speed increase to 30 knots and some AA autocannons + 88mms AA guns. Compared to the “Colorado” and “Nagato” the ship would be a lot more on the battlecruiser side of things with an average firing range around 18km. Potentially a (hypothetical) upgraded AP shell with a flatter trajectory would be needed in case the ship would struggle too bad against Nagato and Colorado (and higher tiers).
• T8 “BISMARCK”: doesn’t really need any explanations. The “TIRPITZ” is already in the game as a premium ship and plays like a fast brawler with decent flat shell trajectory. Don’t expect the torpedos on Bismarck though but at the moment there is not much negative you can say about these two ships.
• T9 “HINDENBURG”: the already confirmed H39 paper ship, an enlarged Bismarck with 40.6cm guns. The proposed name is my preferred choice but unlikely as WG would need to rename the German T10 cruiser then. Either way anything else apart from a logical progression from Bismarck / Tirpitz for this ship would be a surprise. I somehow feel sorry for the Izumo, even the T8 Tirpitz already feels stronger than her today.
• T10 “GROSSDEUTSCHLAND”: people already noticed, the name is rather unlikely as naming convention for ships in the Third Reich excluded direct links anything that could have a negative effect on the morale in case of a loss (a possibility that can’t be excluded in case of a warship). Anyway, we will see here another papership, H41 armed with 42cm guns. How it will compare to Montana and Yamato, I don’t know.

 

 

In parallel there would be a lineup of battlecruisers. I limited myself to T3 to T7 and merge back into the BB line at T8 (Bismarck). Historically this is when the battlecruiser idea was (latest) consumed by the fast battleship concept:

 

• T3 “VON DER TANN”: the first German battlecruiser that defined the German design philosophy of a “cruiser-battleship” with battleship rated armor and high speed at the cost of smaller main guns. At 21.300t displacement she would have a similar or slightly better HP pool compared to Nassau and Kawachi in WOWS, a solid 250mm belt armor and a top speed of around 26 knots. She packs 8 of the same 28cm SK L/45 guns as Nassau so penetration and max damage again could be a concern. However, her main task would be to hunt down cruisers, including the new beast “Bogatyr” with the ability to hold her own in the line against enemy battleships. For sure, Von der Tann would be a fun ship to play.
• T4 “SEYDLITZ”: an iconic battlecruiser and a logical improvement over “Von der Tann” and the succeeding “Moltke” class. Seydlitz was badly damaged during the battle of Jutland where she received severe punishment from all kind of heavy caliber shells including 15 inch but made it home nevertheless. At 28.500t displacement she would have at least an HP pool similar to the T5 “Königs”, coupled with a 300mm belt armor. Well protected and fast at 27 knots, Seydlitz brings a longer barreled 10 x 28cm SK L/50 guns of an improved design to the table. All in all she would be a very strong ship on T4 although lacking any considerable AA. Upgrade-wise a little extra on firing range through FCS would most likely suffice.
• T5 “DERFFLINGER” – the “Iron Dog”: Derfflinger marks the start of a new generation of German battlecruisers with bigger guns (8 of the well-known 30.5cm SK L/50) arranged on the centerline in four super-firing turrets fore and aft. Her 300mm belt armor and high HP pool (32.000t displacement – similar to “Baden” on T6) will make her tough and durable and her fast firing (3rpm!) high velocity guns (900 mps ) well-armed although max damage will be lower at around 8000 - 8700. The penetration of the 30.5cm might be lacking when matched against higher tiers though, potentially WG will need to “invent” an upgraded shell for slightly higher penetration (with B-Hull). Speaking of upgrades, the Iron Dog can receive one historical upgrade, the tripod mast with a very high artillery director and range finder on top which has been refitted after Jutland. This should give her a firing range well beyond 16 km. Additionally an hypothetical upgrade to oil fired boilers would bring her from a stock 28 knots to decent 30 knots upgraded. Last but not least a moderate AA upgrade along the lines of some AA autocannons would be needed to survive on T5. Hopefully WG will not mess up the beautiful purist lines of the Derfflingers by adding any kind of fictional refit to the hull and superstructure!!! Also, historically the ship turned well but was slow to answer the helm as the tandem rudders were not in direct prop wash. This drawback should be modelled in WOWS as well.
• T6 “MACKENSEN”: another beautiful class of battlecruisers and the successors to the Derfflingers. After Jutland it became clear that bigger guns than the proven 30.5cm SK L/50 would be needed so the Derfflinger class was developed further to carry heavier guns – 35cm SK L/45 – a long with some other improvements, such as extended double-bottom. The resulting ships where already pretty close to completion (some 10 – 20 month to go for the first two) but were broken up when the war ended. For WOWS the Mackensens would be an improved Derfflinger class displacing around 35.000t which is a little more than the upgraded / refitted Fuso and an armor layout similar to the Derfflinger (300mm belt). However as with all WW1 designs the deck armor will be pretty poor, becoming more of a problem the higher the fighting distances grow (eg. when encountering a Fuso…). The Mackensens were designed for 28 knots stock speed with a potential (hypothetical) oil fired boilers upgrade which would bring her to 30 knots. Also the AA suite would need a solid upgrade to be competitive on T6. Again I hope WG doesn’t mess up the beautiful lines of these ships by adding hypothetical refits to the hull and superstructure.
• T7 “GNEISENAU”: apparently one of the ships people are waiting for the most apart from HMS Hood. The “sisters” used some of the work that has been done for the Mackensen and Ersatz Yorck battlecruisers. You could argue forever if Gneisenau is better off in the BB or BC line, however I put it on top of the BC line as I felt that Ersatz Yorck makes for a smoother transition from Baden to Bismarck. And even if we could go up all the way to T10 for the battlecruisers by utilizing paper designs with “what-if-refits” I would prefer that the line merges into the BB line at T8 (BB Bismarck) after “Gneisenau” as the battlecruiser concept was obsolete by that time. All new battleships were fast and there was no real need any more to sacrifice neither armor nor main gun caliber to gain some more speed. Back to the “sisters” – she will enjoy a slight increase in HP (37.000t compared to 35.000 of the Mackensens) and carries a massive 350mm belt armor. However her armor is not perfectly balanced as she has some weak spots in her remaining armor (eg. weak deck armor and the piece between the citadel and the main deck). Again, speed is on her side though at about 31 knots. Her main artillery is smaller (28cm SK L/54.5) but punchy, very fast firing and should have decent penetration at short ranges (reported to be as good as 460mm at 8km). However, penetration will probably decrease drastically with range for the smaller shells. Coupled with the strong belt and weak deck armor it sounds like a fast brawler – fun to play. Proposed upgrades include additional AA on the B/C-Hull, the ”Atlantic-bow” and the replacement of the 3 x 3 28cm turrets with 3 x 2 38cm L/47 (same as on Bismarck) if people desire more punch against enemy battleships at the costs of RoF and 3 barrels. The tech tree should then merge back into the main BB line so the next ship after Gneisenau would be “Bismarck”.

 

Please also check out the explanations for the revised cruiser line choices here: http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/46845-proposal-revised-german-cruiser-line/page__fromsearch__1

And the destroyers here: http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/47541-proposal-full-german-destroyer-line-dd/

[JeeWeeJ]

While this topic has been discussed many times...you put in such effort that it deserves a reaction.
First off: you used all commonly known ships, which is good AND kept out the sillyness which are the "pocket battleships" and the stupidity of the O-projects.

However! There is more goodness which can be used beside these! The Germans made a LOT of design proposals near the end of WW1 for some large fast and heavily armed "battlecruisers" (aka Fast Battleships, given the level of protection). You can find a lot of them HERE.

 

I'd like to have the GK-5041 with its eight 16.5" guns and 31knots speed!

[Deamon93]

Instead of Ersatz Yorck I would go fo L20. Granted she has larger caliber shells compared to the counterparts but barely. She van easily be balanced to stay there

[Historynerd]

Instead of Ersatz Yorck I would go fo L20. Granted she has larger caliber shells compared to the counterparts but barely. She van easily be balanced to stay there

 

I agree; the L20 doesn't seem half bad as a rival of the Colorado and the Nagato.

[Trigger_Happy_Dad]

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/35120-der-ultimative-deutsche-forschungsbaum/

[Historynerd]

• T10 “GROSSDEUTSCHLAND”: people already noticed, the name is rather unlikely as naming convention for ships in the Third Reich excluded direct links anything that could have a negative effect on the morale in case of a loss (a possibility that can’t be excluded in case of a warship). Anyway, we will see here another papership, H41 armed with 46cm guns. How it will compare to Montana and Yamato, I don’t know.

 

Um.... maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't the H41 proposal supposed to be armed with 42cm guns? 

[1MajorKoenig]

 

Um.... maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't the H41 proposal supposed to be armed with 42cm guns? 

 

Oops, thanks mate! I was probably still thinking about an Iowa I met. Corrected 

:-)

[Historynerd]

You're welcome.

 

I'd also like to point out that NavWeaps says that the 30.5 cm L/50 had a rate of fire of "2-3 RpM" (not 3). 

In any case, given their pretty strong protection and their top speed (which may well be above the 21 knots of the Wyoming and the New York), I'd say that we cannot expect these guns to fire every 20 seconds, even if their alpha is low.

[1MajorKoenig]

You're welcome.

 

I'd also like to point out that NavWeaps says that the 30.5 cm L/50 had a rate of fire of "2-3 RpM" (not 3). 

In any case, given their pretty strong protection and their top speed (which may well be above the 21 knots of the Wyoming and the New York), I'd say that we cannot expect these guns to fire every 20 seconds, even if their alpha is low.

 

Hard to get a "fixed" figure, Gary Staff has 3 rpm  in his short books. British Tests with "Baden" suggest 23 sec reload time of the significantly slower firing 38cm SK L/45 so I don't think 3rpm is a bad guesstimate for the 30.5 SK L/50. But as for your second comment, we know that WG likes to use These factors for balancing purposes. I hope they don't but I can easily see that they are going to tweak it the way they see fit for game's Balance sake. Still I hope they Keep a flat Shell trajectory on that gun, not the Moonrakers from Yorck...

[Historynerd]

Hard to get a "fixed" figure, Gary Staff has 3 rpm  in his short books. British Tests with "Baden" suggest 23 sec reload time of the significantly slower firing 38cm SK L/45 so I don't think 3rpm is a bad guesstimate for the 30.5 SK L/50. But as for your second comment, we know that WG likes to use These factors for balancing purposes. I hope they don't but I can easily see that they are going to tweak it the way they see fit for game's Balance sake. Still I hope they Keep a flat Shell trajectory on that gun, not the Moonrakers from Yorck...

 

If I'm not wrong, Staff's works are cited on NavWeaps' page.

 

As for the comparison with the 38cm, it's alright, but let's keep in mind that the 30.5 cm was some five years older; it would be foolish to say that everything could change (as far as heavy caliber gun mounts go) in that period, but some advancements could be made. I just wouldn't bet that the German BBs could keep up such a high rate of fire indefinitely.

 

It's precisely because of balance that I looked into this. Otherwise, we'd have two fast-firing, well protected BB classes that would be able to better absorb damage from its opponents and wreck them with rapid firing. I'm not saying that they should remain at 30s reloads, just that I expect them to be more around 25-26 seconds.

 

As for the flat arcs of fire, I wouldn't worry. These guns had a ludicrously high muzzle velocity, I don't think it's much probable they're going to try and send their shells in low Earth orbit.

[1MajorKoenig]

While this topic has been discussed many times...you put in such effort that it deserves a reaction.

First off: you used all commonly known ships, which is good AND kept out the sillyness which are the "pocket battleships" and the stupidity of the O-projects.

However! There is more goodness which can be used beside these! The Germans made a LOT of design proposals near the end of WW1 for some large fast and heavily armed "battlecruisers" (aka Fast Battleships, given the level of protection). You can find a lot of them HERE.

 

I'd like to have the GK-5041 with its eight 16.5" guns and 31knots speed!

Thanks JeeWeeJ !

 

Yes, the GK-5041 is an interesting proposal... I guess WG would go up to T10 all the way anyway (something like L20 -> GK5041 -> GK10). I somehow like the idea thoug hto include as Little paper as possible :-)

[Walther_K_Nehring]

First, thank you very much for your work.

 

But there are some ships missing, which would have had some influence to other navies. And of course, I see some ships in much different roles and so there are different links between them.

Let me show you my proposal:

 

 

First let´s take the battleships (red) and battlecruisers (orange):

 

First critical branch is Blücher, Deutschland, Cruiser-P and Battleship O- all of these are difficult to balance hybrids- Blücher is well protected with smaller guns, Deutschland, P and O are lighter and lesser protected vessel with good punch and relatively fast for their sice. I have in mind, that they could fit perfectly as 2nd line cruiser-killers (only Blücher is a brawler) and BB-supporters. At the point cruisers come into gunrange, these "light battlecruisers" have a problem and suffer hitpoints, although they have torpedos for defence (same G7-tropedos as Tirpitz).

 

Than the regular BC-line, starts with von der Tann, Moltke, Derfflinger, Mackensen, Ersatz Yorck, Gneisenau, GK 4931a (GK 5041 could be an alternative), GK10. These ships rely on their speed, good vertical protection and their good guns, although they are a bit worse than the regular battleship-branch-guns. Mainexercise is brawling cruisers and lowtier-BBs and support the own BBs.

All ships need some fantasy-AA on a B-hull (oil-firing-boilers = speed-upgrade and some AA) or maybe a C-hull (more AA), to be competitive to Tier 6 and above.

 

The 3rd branch are the dreadnoughts and later fast battleships. They rely on good protection (with some horizontal issues), hard punching guns (for German terms) and average speed. On Tier 7 I see the L20a with bigger guns as Bayern/Baden on Tier 6, but lesser penetration as Bismarck on Tier 8. Hull B for L20a is L24a that should have got decktorpedotubes and is the first one in this line and this should be a feature for German BBs. H39 and H41 will be top of the line and don´t need any fantasy-AA-upgrades. There are enough historical guns, to refit the below-average German AA (20mm, 37mm and 105mm) with a good (above-average) AA-upgrade (37/40mm, 55mm, 105mm). Perhaps we will see the German 5" DP-turret as used with the German DDs, or even a slightly changed version of the Hermelins turrets to replace the 6" seccondaries and the 105mm heavy AA.

 

The CA-line (yellow) is relatively easy. I took some armoured cruisers with 8"-guns of WW1 (Adalbert, Roon, Scharnhorst) for Lowtier and than took the interwar-proposals for the "Panzerschiff" to fill the midtier-section. Hipper and these two "WG-drawer-designs" are the hightiers. Hipper will get an alternate Hull named "Lützow" with 4 6" triple-turrets to have a link to the relatively small CL-line.

 

Most of the CL (beige) are almost in the game and there is only the M-class to be added to finish it. I rather would replace the Karlsruhe with the Emden 1925 and give the Kolberg her hisorical 6"-gunupgrade to have a different playstyle.

 

At least the DDs (green):

 

The German Navy had lots of torpedo-boats and torpedo-boats-destroyers to fill 2 complete trees (and there is still material left to have a little additional branch).

 

The left line is the "gunboat-line", known for short-range-torpedos, hard punching 6" guns and higher amount of hitpoints or some armour (although it is relatively light, compared to the Russian DDs). Perhaps the split could be at Tier 4 to remove the Großes Torpedoboot 1918 mob, to have all vessels with 6"-guns. Hightiers are the Spähkreuzers (Reccon-cruisers) of the German Z-Pan. They should be CL, capable of having a small range for invicible firing (300-500m). As CL they should get sonar or the new radar.

 

The "centre-line" is the classic torpedo-boat-line until Tier 4 (good camo, ability to torp stealth- similar to the Japanese DDs). From tier 5 on, they change to allrounders- they rely on good guns with a small range for invicible firing (~200-300 metres once camo-skill is taken) and 6Km-torpedos as ambush-weapon, similar to the midtier US-DDs. The hightiers should get better versions of the G7a with 7,5 kilometres of range, to have a small range for stealth torping.

 

The little "side-branch" is another gunboat-line with smaller guns. The represent the first German DDs of the Bundesmarine with a link to the WW2-vessels. The Typ 1936B looks very similar to the Fletcher-class (119-class) and because it is missing in the regular DD-line, I took it as link to the Fletcher. The Class 101/Hamburg has fast firing 100mm DP-guns and the early stage of development had some deck-torpedotubes, not the internal ones. So there could be a fast moving, shell-spamming little bugger, with relatively good AA.

 

I thought about German carriers, but there were only a few that were started to built (although Graf Zeppelin was nearly finished) or to convert from other ships. I don´t see Germany as a carrier-nation, so why giving them a branch at all costs? There are so many "archaic" paper-designs (cruiser-carrier-hybrids and even battleship-carrier-hybrids) that were proved to be obsolete, that I don´t think it is necessary to regard them.

 

I know this whole tree will never come in this extend. But it shows, what could be possible, exspecially for German BC/BBs and DDs. And of course I know that the Deutschland, P and O are the neverending issue of dispute to all players here in WoWS. But in terms of balancing they would fit in.

 

I hope you have some fun to watch this tree and to research for the different vessels. And perhaps there are some guys, who think in a similar way

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

• T6 “BADEN”: the HSF’s last flagship therefore I would prefer the name Baden over the first commissioned ship “Bayern”. Baden finally packs a bigger punch with her 8 x 38cm SK L/45 which are not to be confused with Tirpitz 38cm L/47 guns of a more modern design. I expect a higher shell arc compared to the 30.5cm SK L/50 which was a very high velocity gun compared to Baden’s and the rate of fire is for sure lower, somewhere like 2,3 compared to the 3 on the 30.5cm but with considerably higher max damage around 10000+. HP wise Baden will be average with her 32.000t displacement (Fuso: 29.000 before and almost 35.000 after refit). Her artillery director on top of the foremast however gives hope for a pretty decent firing range around 18km. Again I hope WG will keep the “what-if-modernization” to a minimum to keep the appearance of the ship as she was built. However, logically a hypothetical AA upgrade would be needed (some auto cannons and 88mm AA guns).
•  

... as a bavarian i'm slightly insulted the Baden as the last flagship could be prem

[RogDodgeUK]

moved to Ships / Battleships

[jonasnee]

i sort of doubt were going to see more than 1 line of cruisers, 1 line of BB and 1 line of destroyers with perhaps the graf zeplin being a tier 7 or 8 premium carrier.

 

i mean the lines you make look impressive, but i don't think that is the direction the game want to go in and there are frankly far more important lines for other nations (including a fully fetched British line up, including carriers) and frankly i rather wanna see said brtish carriers before germany gets their 3rd line (we all know next line will be german BB, sort of looking forward too those since im too poor for the tirpitz )

 

anyways if the german line will be anything like the tirptiz i will be looking forward too it.

[1MajorKoenig]

First, thank you very much for your work.

 

But there are some ships missing, which would have had some influence to other navies. And of course, I see some ships in much different roles and so there are different links between them.

Let me show you my proposal:

 

 

First let´s take the battleships (red) and battlecruisers (orange):

 

First critical branch is Blücher, Deutschland, Cruiser-P and Battleship O- all of these are difficult to balance hybrids- Blücher is well protected with smaller guns, Deutschland, P and O are lighter and lesser protected vessel with good punch and relatively fast for their sice. I have in mind, that they could fit perfectly as 2nd line cruiser-killers (only Blücher is a brawler) and BB-supporters. At the point cruisers come into gunrange, these "light battlecruisers" have a problem and suffer hitpoints, although they have torpedos for defence (same G7-tropedos as Tirpitz).

 

Than the regular BC-line, starts with von der Tann, Moltke, Derfflinger, Mackensen, Ersatz Yorck, Gneisenau, GK 4931a (GK 5041 could be an alternative), GK10. These ships rely on their speed, good vertical protection and their good guns, although they are a bit worse than the regular battleship-branch-guns. Mainexercise is brawling cruisers and lowtier-BBs and support the own BBs.

All ships need some fantasy-AA on a B-hull (oil-firing-boilers = speed-upgrade and some AA) or maybe a C-hull (more AA), to be competitive to Tier 6 and above.

 

The 3rd branch are the dreadnoughts and later fast battleships. They rely on good protection (with some horizontal issues), hard punching guns (for German terms) and average speed. On Tier 7 I see the L20a with bigger guns as Bayern/Baden on Tier 6, but lesser penetration as Bismarck on Tier 8. Hull B for L20a is L24a that should have got decktorpedotubes and is the first one in this line and this should be a feature for German BBs. H39 and H41 will be top of the line and don´t need any fantasy-AA-upgrades. There are enough historical guns, to refit the below-average German AA (20mm, 37mm and 105mm) with a good (above-average) AA-upgrade (37/40mm, 55mm, 105mm). Perhaps we will see the German 5" DP-turret as used with the German DDs, or even a slightly changed version of the Hermelins turrets to replace the 6" seccondaries and the 105mm heavy AA.

 

The CA-line (yellow) is relatively easy. I took some armoured cruisers with 8"-guns of WW1 (Adalbert, Roon, Scharnhorst) for Lowtier and than took the interwar-proposals for the "Panzerschiff" to fill the midtier-section. Hipper and these two "WG-drawer-designs" are the hightiers. Hipper will get an alternate Hull named "Lützow" with 4 6" triple-turrets to have a link to the relatively small CL-line.

 

Most of the CL (beige) are almost in the game and there is only the M-class to be added to finish it. I rather would replace the Karlsruhe with the Emden 1925 and give the Kolberg her hisorical 6"-gunupgrade to have a different playstyle.

 

At least the DDs (green):

 

The German Navy had lots of torpedo-boats and torpedo-boats-destroyers to fill 2 complete trees (and there is still material left to have a little additional branch).

 

The left line is the "gunboat-line", known for short-range-torpedos, hard punching 6" guns and higher amount of hitpoints or some armour (although it is relatively light, compared to the Russian DDs). Perhaps the split could be at Tier 4 to remove the Großes Torpedoboot 1918 mob, to have all vessels with 6"-guns. Hightiers are the Spähkreuzers (Reccon-cruisers) of the German Z-Pan. They should be CL, capable of having a small range for invicible firing (300-500m). As CL they should get sonar or the new radar.

 

The "centre-line" is the classic torpedo-boat-line until Tier 4 (good camo, ability to torp stealth- similar to the Japanese DDs). From tier 5 on, they change to allrounders- they rely on good guns with a small range for invicible firing (~200-300 metres once camo-skill is taken) and 6Km-torpedos as ambush-weapon, similar to the midtier US-DDs. The hightiers should get better versions of the G7a with 7,5 kilometres of range, to have a small range for stealth torping.

 

The little "side-branch" is another gunboat-line with smaller guns. The represent the first German DDs of the Bundesmarine with a link to the WW2-vessels. The Typ 1936B looks very similar to the Fletcher-class (119-class) and because it is missing in the regular DD-line, I took it as link to the Fletcher. The Class 101/Hamburg has fast firing 100mm DP-guns and the early stage of development had some deck-torpedotubes, not the internal ones. So there could be a fast moving, shell-spamming little bugger, with relatively good AA.

 

I thought about German carriers, but there were only a few that were started to built (although Graf Zeppelin was nearly finished) or to convert from other ships. I don´t see Germany as a carrier-nation, so why giving them a branch at all costs? There are so many "archaic" paper-designs (cruiser-carrier-hybrids and even battleship-carrier-hybrids) that were proved to be obsolete, that I don´t think it is necessary to regard them.

 

I know this whole tree will never come in this extend. But it shows, what could be possible, exspecially for German BC/BBs and DDs. And of course I know that the Deutschland, P and O are the neverending issue of dispute to all players here in WoWS. But in terms of balancing they would fit in.

 

I hope you have some fun to watch this tree and to research for the different vessels. And perhaps there are some guys, who think in a similar way

 

Thank you Walther! And chapeau for your tree! A lot of consederation went into this. And I do see a lot of similarities. I made my tree under the assumption that WG keeps the strict "either you are a cruiser or you are a Battleship ". Explanation for the cruiser choices are here:

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/46845-proposal-revised-german-cruiser-line/page__fromsearch__1

 

 

 

[1MajorKoenig]

• T6 “BADEN”: the HSF’s last flagship therefore I would prefer the name Baden over the first commissioned ship “Bayern”. Baden finally packs a bigger punch with her 8 x 38cm SK L/45 which are not to be confused with Tirpitz 38cm L/47 guns of a more modern design. I expect a higher shell arc compared to the 30.5cm SK L/50 which was a very high velocity gun compared to Baden’s and the rate of fire is for sure lower, somewhere like 2,3 compared to the 3 on the 30.5cm but with considerably higher max damage around 10000+. HP wise Baden will be average with her 32.000t displacement (Fuso: 29.000 before and almost 35.000 after refit). Her artillery director on top of the foremast however gives hope for a pretty decent firing range around 18km. Again I hope WG will keep the “what-if-modernization” to a minimum to keep the appearance of the ship as she was built. However, logically a hypothetical AA upgrade would be needed (some auto cannons and 88mm AA guns).
•  

... as a bavarian i'm slightly insulted the Baden as the last flagship could be prem

 

Just because it was the flagship! No offence towards our brothers south of the Weisswurstäquator intended!

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

 

Just because it was the flagship! No offence towards our brothers south of the Weisswurstäquator intended!

 

or the Baden could be a Prem

[1MajorKoenig]

 

I agree; the L20 doesn't seem half bad as a rival of the Colorado and the Nagato.

Low velocity 42cm guns - Technology wise something Close to Yorck's Moonraker APs...? I really like the L20 but I think putting her on T7 or 8 will Need a lot of "what-if-modernization" similar to Amagi.

 

Still think an Ersatz Yorck would be fine as Long as she gets some AA and a Speed buff.

 

@GrossadmiralThrawn (off Topic): the bar Scene in "Das Boot" is also my favourite Scene :-)

[Deamon93]

Low velocity 42cm guns - Technology wise something Close to Yorck's Moonraker APs...? I really like the L20 but I think putting her on T7 or 8 will Need a lot of "what-if-modernization" similar to Amagi.

 

Still think an Ersatz Yorck would be fine as Long as she gets some AA and a Speed buff.

 

@GrossadmiralThrawn (off Topic): the bar Scene in "Das Boot" is also my favourite Scene :-)

 

Well all the WWI era designs will require what-ifs due to the fact they had very minimal AA. One more or one less wouldn't change all that much

[Historynerd]

Low velocity 42cm guns - Technology wise something Close to Yorck's Moonraker APs...? I really like the L20 but I think putting her on T7 or 8 will Need a lot of "what-if-modernization" similar to Amagi.

 

Still think an Ersatz Yorck would be fine as Long as she gets some AA and a Speed buff.

 

Well all the WWI era designs will require what-ifs due to the fact they had very minimal AA. One more or one less wouldn't change all that much

 

Well, if you consider a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s low... then the Warspite's 15-inch guns should scratch the moon when they fire, with their plodding and puny velocity of 752 m/s...

Even the British 18-inch Mark II wouldn't have theoretically surpassed that speed by far (823 m/s at most), despite the fact that it was supposed to be a high-velocity/light shell concept.

 

The Ersatz Yorck too would need some serious AA modernizations, and some improvements to its secondary battery, I believe.

[1MajorKoenig]

 

 

Well, if you consider a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s low... then the Warspite's 15-inch guns should scratch the moon when they fire, with their plodding and puny velocity of 752 m/s...

Even the British 18-inch Mark II wouldn't have theoretically surpassed that speed by far (823 m/s at most), despite the fact that it was supposed to be a high-velocity/light shell concept.

 

The Ersatz Yorck too would need some serious AA modernizations, and some improvements to its secondary battery, I believe.

 

Why would anyone improve secondaries in WOWS? Apart from making scenic noise they are totally useless. A shame as they would need to be the guns to fend off Torpedoboats and destroyers. Balance...

[Historynerd]

Why would anyone improve secondaries in WOWS? Apart from making scenic noise they are totally useless. A shame as they would need to be the guns to fend off Torpedoboats and destroyers. Balance...

 

I didn't follow it up a lot, but don't they want to implement a captain ability that grants you secondaries that hit, provided that you manually select the target? A better (or better organized/placed) secondary battery might be of help in that regard.

[1MajorKoenig]

 

I didn't follow it up a lot, but don't they want to implement a captain ability that grants you secondaries that hit, provided that you manually select the target? A better (or better organized/placed) secondary battery might be of help in that regard.

 

They did introduce a captain's skill that reduces the Dispersion by 60% for higher Tier ships. Still if you compare it to what the secondaries were for and the range they could fire it is still insignificant. But I guess it is to make Close combat more fun

[Historynerd]

They did introduce a captain's skill that reduces the Dispersion by 60% for higher Tier ships. Still if you compare it to what the secondaries were for and the range they could fire it is still insignificant. But I guess it is to make Close combat more fun

 

If secondaries worked as they did IRL, a DD skipper trying to torpedo a BB would get only a free ticket to return to port in half a minute. I believe it's unnecessary to explain why those thing work differently in the game. Still, doesn't mean that they should be only coreography. 

Besides, they're not exactly useless as of now. I currently have a puny 243 battles under my belt, yet I've somehow managed to destroy two ships with my secondaries. It's little, but something.