If you are within smoke you should not be able to see other players at all

[Astalano]

I think it's a bit ridiculous that cruisers and destroyers or any class really can fire from within a smokescreen as long as you are spotted by an ally. Either make ships show up every single time they fire, regardless of smokescreen or make all enemy players invisible to players within a smokescreen. 

[051G3]

Another thread to complain about the DDs buff. Bravo! This forum is dominated by DD-lovers, how dare you 

 

Your thread will soon be locked like mine.

[Astalano]

Another thread to complain about the DDs buff. Bravo! This forum is dominated by DD-lovers, how dare you 

 

Your thread will soon be locked like mine.

 

 

It's not really a DD complaint, this should apply to all classes. If you fire within/behind smoke you should light up every single time you fire or you shouldn't be able to see at all. There has to be some risk to firing from smoke and some opportunity to fire back.

 

Yes you can see the tracers, but you can't really judge the attitude of the ship.

[051G3]

 

 

It's not really a DD complaint, this should apply to all classes. If you fire within/behind smoke you should light up every single time you fire or you shouldn't be able to see at all. There has to be some risk to firing from smoke and some opportunity to fire back.

 

Yes you can see the tracers, but you can't really judge the attitude of the ship.

 

Agree and disagree with you. 

Yes - not all smokers are DDs, there are a couple of exceptions;

No - all DDs are smokers 

Period. 

[waxx25]

Am 16.3.2016 um 00:39, Astalano sagte:

I think it's a bit ridiculous that cruisers and destroyers or any class really can fire from within a smokescreen as long as you are spotted by an ally. Either make ships show up every single time they fire, regardless of smokescreen or make all enemy players invisible to players within a smokescr

edited - please keep a friendly communication. 

[Astalano]

WHAAA WHAAA Mommy, the big bad dd killed me from inside his smoke and I couldn't see him....whaaa whaaaa its not fair

 

Don't think I've ever had issues with destroyers in smoke.

[Aotearas]

They say a picture is worth more than a thousand words ... and I'm certainly not in the mood to humour this kind of rant with anywhere close that amount of literal work, so here, have a picture:

 

 

 

Apply for naval gunnery and replace forward observer with other ships supplying targeting and correction, that's all the answer you need.

 

Whether you're going to accept that answer or not is up to you.

[aph_73]

They say a picture is worth more than a thousand words ... and I'm certainly not in the mood to humour this kind of rant with anywhere close that amount of literal work, so here, have a picture:

 

 

 

Apply for naval gunnery and replace forward observer with other ships supplying targeting and correction, that's all the answer you need.

 

Whether you're going to accept that answer or not is up to you.

 

This would not have worked in the time period in question as guns were aimed visually by warships.  Any attempt by a third party to give grid references for the target would have been hopelessly inaccurate at sea.   To correct up, down, left and right from observed fall of shot would require a bearing from the firing ship to the target.

 

 

[Jibumba]

 

This would not have worked in the time period in question as guns were aimed visually by warships.  Any attempt by a third party to give grid references for the target would have been hopelessly inaccurate at sea.   To correct up, down, left and right from observed fall of shot would require a bearing from the firing ship to the target.

 

 

 

According to your thoughts..Makes me wonder why did they have artillery (naval or base-landed) in the first place.. *facepalm*

[Agantas]

 

This would not have worked in the time period in question as guns were aimed visually by warships.  Any attempt by a third party to give grid references for the target would have been hopelessly inaccurate at sea.   To correct up, down, left and right from observed fall of shot would require a bearing from the firing ship to the target.

 

 

 

That doesn't sound plausible. The game is already full of third party spotting mechanics. For example, if a DD spots you, then the battleships in his team, which are not within your surface detection range, can also see you. Smoke is no exception from that. You can shoot at ships that are behind islands because of these spotting mechanics, so why not from the smoke? And yes, the smoke does reduce the DD's visibility to the target if no-one else is spotting it.

 

As a reference from that time period, this WW2 era training video from US Navy claims that you can accurately shoot targets farther away than the visibility you have from the ship's deck (visibility from Iowa's deck - 14 miles, accurately shoot the target 20 miles away):

[159Hunter]

I'll agree with OP if he then agrees that any ship will only spot ships this ship can spot. So no more spotting by team members...

[Zathras_Grimm]

I think it's a bit ridiculous that cruisers and destroyers or any class really can fire from within a smokescreen as long as you are spotted by an ally. Either make ships show up every single time they fire, regardless of smokescreen or make all enemy players invisible to players within a smokescreen.

 

 If I lay smoke and I am the only one in area I cannot see the ship I am running from (usually this happens towards the end of game). If I lay smoke during the beginning of the game, I believe it is the other friendly ships line of sight that allows me to see the enemy ship enabling me to fire. It makes sense.

 

 

Therefore isn't that similar to the situation where one ship can spot a DD and every other one can fire at it? I think another player called it communication in another thread.

 

 

I would be happy to give up any chance to fire from smoke if it means CAs/BBs can't fire at me from across the map when a nearby DD or aircraft spots me. Was this a joke post OP or did you really not see the similarity with the DD being spotted situation? 

 

Edit: How dare those DDs do anything other than scout, cap and die; disgraceful!!

[aph_73]

 

That doesn't sound plausible. The game is already full of third party spotting mechanics. For example, if a DD spots you, then the battleships in his team, which are not within your surface detection range, can also see you. Smoke is no exception from that. You can shoot at ships that are behind islands because of these spotting mechanics, so why not from the smoke? And yes, the smoke does reduce the DD's visibility to the target if no-one else is spotting it.

 

As a reference from that time period, this WW2 era training video from US Navy claims that you can accurately shoot targets farther away than the visibility you have from the ship's deck (visibility from Iowa's deck - 14 miles, accurately shoot the target 20 miles away):

 

Range isn't a problem, the problem is correcting on to the target when you don't know the position of the firing ship as it is hidden in smoke, not just firing through it.  A correction of "200 left" will give a different result to different ships firing from different locations within a smoke screen.

 

[JapLance]

A smoke screen has always been a defensive measure to hide from the enemy, and if this game wants to be a decent rendition of naval warfare, it should stay that way.

 

I'm OK with ships firing from smoke to ships spotted by others if they decide to, but they should lose the benefit of the smoke when they do, similar to losing your concealment when you fire from beyond your normal spotting range (which reminds me that this is also a stupid mechanic. All ships should be spotted when firing. Period).

 

Unless WG prefers to make a Star Trek game and not a naval warfare game.

[DJ_Die]

Sure but in that case there should be no more spotting by friendly ships either...

Or spotting aircraft for that matter because thats the same thing....

What you dont get is that it would make DDs even stronger because now anything thats not within its spotting range will be able to shoot it when another DD spots it..a great idea 

 

It's just funny that most of the proponents of this idea have minimal or even no experience with DDs....

[_Zug_Zwang_]

I think it's a bit ridiculous that cruisers and destroyers or any class really can fire from within a smokescreen as long as you are spotted by an ally. Either make ships show up every single time they fire, regardless of smokescreen or make all enemy players invisible to players within a smokescreen. 

 

it is frustrating being shot at from within smoke ... i understand that, it happens to all of us ... but really, you are totally off with this proposal. 

[EsaTuunanen]

There has to be some risk to firing from smoke and some opportunity to fire back.

 

Yes you can see the tracers, but you can't really judge the attitude of the ship.

Ship, or its guns are in origin point of shell trajectory.

And BB/cruiser salvo is big enough to get some hits to broadside position DD which isn't moving.

Number of guns would also allow bracketing little up and down.

 

But of course learning to play is hard process because it requires actual thinking...

[MudMonkey]

I think it's a bit ridiculous that cruisers and destroyers or any class really can fire from within a smokescreen as long as you are spotted by an ally. Either make ships show up every single time they fire, regardless of smokescreen or make all enemy players invisible to players within a smokescreen. 

 

It is also ridiculous to see through islands or land masses with sonar and (soon) radar. Btw you can also fire into the smoke screen. Someone sitting within the screen is usually also a sitting duck. And it's not that hard to kill sitting ducks.

[Phlogistoned]

Ship, or its guns are in origin point of shell trajectory.

And BB/cruiser salvo is big enough to get some hits to broadside position DD which isn't moving.

Number of guns would also allow bracketing little up and down.

 

But of course learning to play is hard process because it requires actual thinking...

 

OP is wrong, but you're wrong too.

 

Have you ever actually *tried* hitting an unspotted DD within smoke from a BB?

 

Even if the DD is *streaming* fire from its guns, and I aim between the front and aft guns, (but slightly low since gun muzzles are on the upper part of the DD), I only very rarely get a hit. 

 

And as a BB-driver you only get a salvo every 30s, so while it may be doable from another DD , forget it as a BB-driver.

[Astalano]

 

 If I lay smoke and I am the only one in area I cannot see the ship I am running from (usually this happens towards the end of game). If I lay smoke during the beginning of the game, I believe it is the other friendly ships line of sight that allows me to see the enemy ship enabling me to fire. It makes sense.

 

 

Therefore isn't that similar to the situation where one ship can spot a DD and every other one can fire at it? I think another player called it communication in another thread.

 

 

I would be happy to give up any chance to fire from smoke if it means CAs/BBs can't fire at me from across the map when a nearby DD or aircraft spots me. Was this a joke post OP or did you really not see the similarity with the DD being spotted situation? 

 

Edit: How dare those DDs do anything other than scout, cap and die; disgraceful!!

 

It's less about DD's and more about other ships wandering into the smoke and still being able to fire with impunity. 

 

Okay, you get concealment, but as soon as you fire you lose that concealment for something like 5 seconds. DD's are a minor annoyance at best which set fires from within smoke, DD's themselves aren't the actual issue, and with new cruisers out which can lay smoke and throw out a withering hail of fire as well, it's starting to become a bit ridiculous that you can get perfect camouflage with no downsides as long as other team mates are spotting. There should be some drawback, whether it's showing up every time you fire or not being able to see enemy ships at all until you establish line of sight.

 

How does this even make DD's more vulnerable? It is difficult to hit DD's, let alone hit them within smoke as they pop in and out of concealment. The main thing this would address would be larger ships abusing smoke mechanics. 

[indycar]

WHAAA WHAAA Mommy, the big bad dd killed me from inside his smoke and I couldn't see him....whaaa whaaaa its not fair

 

whaaa sonny wait till u reach higher tiers and encounter 3 kutuzov's in a division exchangiing their smoke

[Kenliero]

It does NOT require visual on the enemy. Yamato didn't need to see the enemy. Due earth being a ball and ability to shoot past horizon, they only needed spotterplane to send coordinates, to shoot target. The same thing with destroyer. If someone spots coordinates for you. You SHOULD be able to shoot there. Destroyers can not spot from smoke, but nothing prevents them from shooting to enemy location, if enemy is spotted by allies.

[Zathras_Grimm]

 

It's less about DD's and more about other ships wandering into the smoke and still being able to fire with impunity. 

 

Okay, you get concealment, but as soon as you fire you lose that concealment for something like 5 seconds. DD's are a minor annoyance at best which set fires from within smoke, DD's themselves aren't the actual issue, and with new cruisers out which can lay smoke and throw out a withering hail of fire as well, it's starting to become a bit ridiculous that you can get perfect camouflage with no downsides as long as other team mates are spotting. There should be some drawback, whether it's showing up every time you fire or not being able to see enemy ships at all until you establish line of sight.

 

How does this even make DD's more vulnerable? It is difficult to hit DD's, let alone hit them within smoke as they pop in and out of concealment. The main thing this would address would be larger ships abusing smoke mechanics. 

What you describe is game mechanic that promotes team play. There has been many occassions where one friendly ship could be losing the fight against another enemy ship, I drop smoke to conceal him yet maintain line of sight with the enemy. I can't fire without exposing my position, but I am spotting for my friendly ship; he now has the upper hand. That's team play! 

[Zathras_Grimm]

 

whaaa sonny wait till u reach higher tiers and encounter 3 kutuzov's in a division exchangiing their smoke

 

 

whaaa sonny wait till u reach higher tiers and encounter 3 kutuzov's in a division exchangiing their smoke

Although not supporting the 'whaaa' bit I have to disagree with what you say. I have not played top tier but whenever I suggest any form of 'playing as a team', I get nothing but abuse! Apparently there is no such thing as teamwork at top tiers so how can your Kutuzov's be working together?

 

Strange though as the same individuals then explain how all the enemy DDs (never their own)  manage to synchronise a timed release of torpedoes to create the affectionately known 'wall of a thousand torps'. Telepathy as opposed to team play I guess? 

[CrniVrag]

What you describe is game mechanic that promotes team play. There has been many occassions where one friendly ship could be losing the fight against another enemy ship, I drop smoke to conceal him yet maintain line of sight with the enemy. I can't fire without exposing my position, but I am spotting for my friendly ship; he now has the upper hand. That's team play! 

 

There has been even more occasions where you drop smoke and the turd sails right past it and dies in a hail of shells and starts noob calling. Not that it bothers me that he died, but I used up 1 smoke charge....