DD excessive survivability? lets review and discuss

[anonym_gxxGX7KaxQVa]

hi all, i've seen there is lots of talk on DD being OP, or at least too survivable in various threads recently (or at least, more so than usual and more so than with other class of ships). my goal here is to create a compiled up to date thread to discussif you think this is the case or not, and if yes, how can this be better balanced, especially the opinion of high-tier or highly experienced player is very welcome.

 

 

 

before i start, let me introduce myself: i'm not the best player ever, and don't post on the forum often, but i got over 3000 games and 60% winrate so i'm at least not Terrible and not a Complete Noob, right ? i played all 4 classes in IJN and US tree, all the way to tier 8 and my 2 most played class are BB and DD, so this is a point of view coming from someone who plays a little bit of everything and has at least a minimal understanding of every class's gameplay.

right of the bat, i'll say my opinion is that Destroyers are definitely too good right now, possibly even Overpowered, especially so in the high (8+) tiers. it's very simple: they are the most survivable ship class in my opinion, and when playing they are the one i have the most confidence i'll be able to survive, and deal with any threat no matter what i encounter.

 

why are they too survivable ? in my opinion it's not because of one thing in particular (not even the dreaded smokescreen, no) but because they just have too many things that stack in their favor:

Let's make a list :

 

+ they are the Smallest ships (=naturally harder to hit)

+they are the Fastest ships (= can outrun torps and disengage from a bad situation more easily)

+they are the Most Maneuverable ships (=can dodge fire and torps better)

+they have the shortest Damage Control Party cooldown (only 60sec, and you can get it to less than 40sec with commender skill +premium consumable)

+they have Stealth

+they have no Citadel

+they have very low Superstructure HP pool (=once it has been depleted after just a few hits, then all HE damage taken after that becomes greatly reduced)

+they have virtually no Armor (=all AP hits taken are a guaranteed overpenetration)

+they still have a surprising amount of HP for such small ships (especially so now that Survivability Expert is a thing, at high tier a lot of DD can exceed 20000 HP with it)

 

and then, EVEN on top of ALL THAT, of course, they have their 2 "Get-out-of-Jail-Free" cards per game (AKA the smokescreen), or up to 4 with superintendent+premium consumable, which can allow them to survive and run away almost always, no matter how big of a mistake or overly agressive move they made.

such big routing or position mistakes are always punished by instant death in a BB ( you don't have speed to run away) or in a cruiser (you get focused by everyone and Vaporized in 2 seconds).

 

so how to fix this ? we need to eliminate or reducesome of these many advantages. some are realistic (the higher speed, maneuverability, ect...) and are also skill based, which is good, and shouldn't be touched.

my opinion is that what should be changed is their Resilience to damage when they actually get hit.

there is not 5000 thousand way to go about it, Destroyers have too much HP and can take too much damage for such small ships...

 

everyone (well, most experienced players at least) keep arguing that it's realistic and normal that Cruisers can get CTRL-ALT-DELETE 'ed in AP salvo from a Battleship, or Battleships can get REKT in one ninja torpedo spread from a Destroyer, and that it's up to the Cruiser/BB player to be careful about his position, his angle, and to dodge...But apparently you are an idiot, a noob, or biased when you dare suggest that Maybe, Destroyers shouldn't be able to take a Full HE broadside from a Heavy Cruiser (Let alone a Battleship!) or 3+torps and still just walk away to go stealth and then keep sailing around at full speed, machinegunning torpedoes left and right for all rest of the game like nothing happened.

 

some of my ideas to achieve these are the following (they are not mutually exclusive of course):

 

-Reduce the Effect of Survivability expert skill on DD (maybe by 50% or something ?)

-Make 100% of the HP Pool of Destroyers Hull based (AKA: they always take Full HE damage, no matter how much HE damage the already took before. considering how such small and unarmored ships they are, i don't think this is unrealistic, too)

-Make it so that an Overpen on a DD deal a bit more damage than Overpen on another ship (again, they are small ships, so the Hole made by the overpen is proportionally bigger for them, right ? :p )

-Consider Nerfing the HP of Destroyers across the board by a little bit (especially at high tiers)

-Put an Activation Cooldown on the Smokescreen (=the smoke starts 20seconds after you pressed the button or something like this ?)

 

 

there. these are my tought on the subject of Destroyers as a whole. agree/desagree? let's discuss!

[22cm]

Let me guess, another unhappy BB driver?

The OP of DDs at higher tiers is caused by the relative lack of CV s at those tiers, the games with multiple cap bases, and  the poor situation of cruisers.

Not even worth discussing.

[SethAbercromby]

I agree that DDs are too survivable right now, yet paradoxically everyone always seems to put the blame on the BBs or tries to buff them one way or another.

 

I think the exclusion of citadels is what pushed DDs over the edge of becoming OP. There was a huge whinefest of how it was unfair that CA HEs had enough penetration value to punch through their armored deck and detonate in the citadel, ending their lives fairly shortly. However, given how much the CA has been made to put on the pedestal of the worst class, bar a few notable exceptions, everyone still seems reluctant to actually address the issue. DD captains obviously never want to hear any of it, being the best class they only need to care it stays that way. BB captains just want the ability to annihilate anything in the sake of 'balance'. CVs don't bother since CA AA has been pretty bad for a long time now (again, bar a few exceptions that are just that much better than everything else). And the CA captains? They've gone into full Dark Souls 'git gud scrub' mode.

 

Everyone one way or another comes to the conclusion that DDs are the most dangerous threat to them, but somehow the issue is never with the DDs, given that they have a theoretical counter, but CAs are already busy enough eating each other and not getting annihilated by BB volleys. The fact they have to pick a poison in being either somewhat anti air or somewhat anti DD doesn't help in providing them with enough options to fulfill either role.

[Niibler]

It's all nice and dandy, problem is your numbers are wrong. Go and retrieve % Survival for DDs and for BBs, compare and then build some biased rationale about it cause this one isn't very good.

 

[Myrmix]

I agree with most of your points, but DDs real strength is the lack of carriers. On first thought the new ability radar might enhance this ability to spot them when no CV is around.

But!

The russian cruisers and the US ones who might get the skill are very fragile themselves and, like SetzAbercromby said, busy with staying alive and dishing out support fire over distance.

I'm afraid while the intention by WG might be good, the RU cruisers will end up as HE-sniping nightmares for BB and rarely get to use their radar against DDs (I would be happy if I get proven otherwise)

Until you have CV in basically every game, there is no hardcounter against DDs to keep them in place.

[ColonelPete]

Why do you not look at the server stats?

 

Does that look like excessive survivalbility for DD?

 

Eu Server 2016/03/05 , sorted for survival rate:

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20160305/eu_week/average_ship.html

Nation Class Tier Name Win Damage Kills/Battle Survival US DD 3 Wickes 48.07 13887 0.64 13.82 SN DD 3 Derzki 47.53 11757 0.57 14.10 SN DD 4 Izyaslav 47.09 14119 0.55 14.10 US DD 5 Nicholas 47.22 16524 0.61 15.50 US DD 2 Sampson 46.76 8490 0.49 15.83 SN DD 2 Storozhevoi 47.19 7933 0.47 15.85 US DD 4 Clemson 48.96 17219 0.69 15.94 SN DD 5 Gnevny 47.01 16372 0.60 18.96 US DD 6 Farragut 47.93 17174 0.60 19.38 SN DD 6 Ognevoi 47.92 16710 0.55 20.20 JP DD 3 Wakatake 49.33 15781 0.68 21.51 US DD 7 Mahan 48.83 19614 0.62 22.46 SN DD 7 Kiev 51.45 25006 0.73 23.94 JP DD 5 Minekaze 50.85 25744 0.88 24.23 JP DD 4 Isokaze 51.17 23730 0.90 24.90 SN DD 8 Tashkent 50.28 26367 0.69 26.05 US DD 7 Sims 47.84 19963 0.60 26.50 JP DD 2 Tachibana 50.96 12741 0.80 27.12 JP DD 6 Mutsuki 48.77 20018 0.57 28.85 JP DD 5 Kamikaze R 52.73 30633 1.06 28.99 PA DD 6 Anshan 52.60 22759 0.75 29.49 PA DD 8 Lo Yang 49.27 24038 0.67 29.60 JP DD 7 Hatsuharu 48.20 21348 0.59 29.71 JP BB 4 Ishizuchi 49.51 22352 0.61 29.84 JP BB 2 Mikasa 56.53 13456 0.81 30.79 US DD 8 Benson 51.09 28366 0.80 32.53 JP DD 2 Umikaze 52.67 16236 0.93 32.59 PO DD 7 Blyskawica 53.06 27744 0.81 33.30 JP BB 3 Kawachi 49.89 17595 0.67 33.68 US BB 3 South Carolina 48.62 17098 0.59 34.01 JP DD 8 Fubuki 48.91 28107 0.66 34.38 JP DD 5 Fujin 56.44 36333 1.23 35.33 US DD 9 Fletcher 51.85 36608 0.90 35.95 US BB 4 Wyoming 48.98 25398 0.68 36.38 SN DD 9 Udaloi 52.48 38507 0.86 37.06 JP BB 4 Myogi 48.36 21797 0.54 37.55 US DD 10 Gearing 50.07 45555 0.90 38.32 JP BB 9 Izumo 48.91 52727 0.73 38.69 US BB 5 New York 47.90 26316 0.59 38.88 SN DD 5 Gremyashchy 55.98 32014 1.15 39.01 RN BB 6 Warspite 53.42 43497 0.93 41.98 US BB 9 Iowa 48.04 54638 0.74 42.21 JP DD 9 Kagero 49.25 38433 0.74 42.44 JP BB 5 Kongo 48.32 29818 0.66 43.42 SN BB 4 Imperator Nikolai I 59.79 42009 1.27 43.64 US BB 4 Arkansas Beta 55.49 39364 1.12 44.06 JP DD 10 Shimakaze 49.45 51242 0.90 44.20 SN DD 10 Khabarovsk 51.29 52423 0.92 44.35 JP BB 5 ARP Kongo 50.80 37244 0.84 44.55 US BB 6 New Mexico 49.20 36455 0.77 45.39 US BB 7 Colorado 48.69 42112 0.74 45.41 JP BB 10 Yamato 51.45 78126 0.85 45.59 JP BB 7 Nagato 49.07 46012 0.77 45.60 JP BB 5 ARP Haruna 55.98 43172 0.95 46.16 KM BB 8 Tirpitz 51.64 52281 0.83 46.57 US BB 8 North Carolina 48.56 46801 0.73 46.89 JP BB 8 Amagi 50.74 56891 0.89 47.30 JP BB 6 Fuso 50.25 41827 0.86 47.53 US BB 10 Montana 51.35 65586 0.85 49.89 JP BB 5 ARP Hiei 35.71 43920 1.14 50.00

 

See a pattern?

 

See the difference between personal opinion and FACTS?

[ScratxNeko]

Well, the dual buff of making Last Stand easily available to DDs plus giving them a tier 4 skill that buffs their HPs to the point it's quite possible to run out of HPs on parts of their ship before dying (I just came from a match where that happened to me, I was hitting a DD, multiple times, and not doing any damage whatsoever despite destroying modules) ... yeah, it's no wonder there's a ton more DDs around now.

 

Adding the low CV population in and, yeah, they run amok.

 

Not sure radar is the answer, though, because that screws over DD tactics that we ought to encourage... namely anything that isn't torp wall spamming at 15km out.

[Myrmix]

I don't like this argument, brought into the discussion everytime. Yes, DD DO LESS DAMAGE,

but they can stop a whole flank of 5+ ships from moving forward, just because of their torpedo-carpets.

DDs have an huge tactical advantage, only CV have in a similar (and maybe weaker) way.

They can completely deny a flank to move forward, without being spotted. that's the problem with DDs, not their damage.

[RamirezKurita]

A good start to both reducing DD survivability as well as providing better balance to the captain skills for other ships would be to change the survivability expert skill at tier 4 into a percentage increase. Changing it to a universal 15% increase to health would make it much the same for upper mid tier destroyers, weaker for top tier destroyers and actually make it a valid option for everyone else.

[VC381]

Nah, they don't have too much HP and neither are they that good at dodging unless the captain is REALLY good. If you can see him and he's in range to shoot you, you can two-hit him. Now spot the problem with that statement: IF! The biggest problem with DDs is the ability to invisifire for extended periods of time with the smoke (especially the high tier USN ones). IMO it's the smoke that needs nerfing, not the HP or the torps or anything else. It's simply stupid that a US or Russian DD above tier 5 can take 50% to 75% of a cruiser's HP off in the time it takes their smoke to run out, while the cruiser can do literally nothing to retaliate. That and the "you are permanently spotted but can't do anything about it" BS, which also boils down to excessive stealth ability. Basically, in any game ever that involves PvP, stealth is a toxic one-sided mechanic and is one of the hardest things to balance. I get vision ranges and all that, fog of war is fine, but the DDs are just too good at not being seen, and it distorts the game.

[SethAbercromby]

First of all, shifting the blame on the CV is again obfuscating the issue that CAs are as as right now the weakest and least useful class in the game. Intended as jacks of all trades, the constant buffs and nerfs to the various classes have made them to masters of none.

 

CAs need something to gain back some of that status as versatile skirmishers or alternatively, DDs need to get back some of that vulnerability they have lost through the exclusion of citadels in another way. Generally I'd say these two are needed most, something to reel DDs back in, and also an overall buff to AA performance of all CAs, possibly bar outliners such as Mikhail. This way you have both problems solved in one go, CVs holding air supremacy unless countered by another CV and DDs being able to survive several volleys by most CAs and maybe losing half their health.

 

But while I was typing this, the above responses have pretty much proven my previous statements. DDs are never unbalanced, everyone else just universally sucks i guess.

[Capra76]

I don't like this argument, brought into the discussion everytime. Yes, DD DO LESS DAMAGE,

but they can stop a whole flank of 5+ ships from moving forward, just because of their torpedo-carpets.

DDs have an huge tactical advantage, only CV have in a similar (and maybe weaker) way.

They can completely deny a flank to move forward, without being spotted. that's the problem with DDs, not their damage.

 

 

So why do the torpedo boats all have sub 50% WR?

[Niibler]

Why do you not look at the server stats?

 

Does that look like excessive survivalbility for DD?

 

Eu Server 2016/03/05 , sorted for survival rate:

Nation Class Tier Name Win Damage Kills/Battle Survival US DD 3 Wickes 48.07 13887 0.64 13.82 SN DD 3 Derzki 47.53 11757 0.57 14.10 SN DD 4 Izyaslav 47.09 14119 0.55 14.10 US DD 5 Nicholas 47.22 16524 0.61 15.50 US DD 2 Sampson 46.76 8490 0.49 15.83 SN DD 2 Storozhevoi 47.19 7933 0.47 15.85 US DD 4 Clemson 48.96 17219 0.69 15.94 SN DD 5 Gnevny 47.01 16372 0.60 18.96 US DD 6 Farragut 47.93 17174 0.60 19.38 SN DD 6 Ognevoi 47.92 16710 0.55 20.20 JP DD 3 Wakatake 49.33 15781 0.68 21.51 US DD 7 Mahan 48.83 19614 0.62 22.46 SN DD 7 Kiev 51.45 25006 0.73 23.94 JP DD 5 Minekaze 50.85 25744 0.88 24.23 JP DD 4 Isokaze 51.17 23730 0.90 24.90 SN DD 8 Tashkent 50.28 26367 0.69 26.05 US DD 7 Sims 47.84 19963 0.60 26.50 JP DD 2 Tachibana 50.96 12741 0.80 27.12 JP DD 6 Mutsuki 48.77 20018 0.57 28.85 JP DD 5 Kamikaze R 52.73 30633 1.06 28.99 PA DD 6 Anshan 52.60 22759 0.75 29.49 PA DD 8 Lo Yang 49.27 24038 0.67 29.60 JP DD 7 Hatsuharu 48.20 21348 0.59 29.71 JP BB 4 Ishizuchi 49.51 22352 0.61 29.84 JP BB 2 Mikasa 56.53 13456 0.81 30.79 US DD 8 Benson 51.09 28366 0.80 32.53 JP DD 2 Umikaze 52.67 16236 0.93 32.59 PO DD 7 Blyskawica 53.06 27744 0.81 33.30 JP BB 3 Kawachi 49.89 17595 0.67 33.68 US BB 3 South Carolina 48.62 17098 0.59 34.01 JP DD 8 Fubuki 48.91 28107 0.66 34.38 JP DD 5 Fujin 56.44 36333 1.23 35.33 US DD 9 Fletcher 51.85 36608 0.90 35.95 US BB 4 Wyoming 48.98 25398 0.68 36.38 SN DD 9 Udaloi 52.48 38507 0.86 37.06 JP BB 4 Myogi 48.36 21797 0.54 37.55 US DD 10 Gearing 50.07 45555 0.90 38.32 JP BB 9 Izumo 48.91 52727 0.73 38.69 US BB 5 New York 47.90 26316 0.59 38.88 SN DD 5 Gremyashchy 55.98 32014 1.15 39.01 RN BB 6 Warspite 53.42 43497 0.93 41.98 US BB 9 Iowa 48.04 54638 0.74 42.21 JP DD 9 Kagero 49.25 38433 0.74 42.44 JP BB 5 Kongo 48.32 29818 0.66 43.42 SN BB 4 Imperator Nikolai I 59.79 42009 1.27 43.64 US BB 4 Arkansas Beta 55.49 39364 1.12 44.06 JP DD 10 Shimakaze 49.45 51242 0.90 44.20 SN DD 10 Khabarovsk 51.29 52423 0.92 44.35 JP BB 5 ARP Kongo 50.80 37244 0.84 44.55 US BB 6 New Mexico 49.20 36455 0.77 45.39 US BB 7 Colorado 48.69 42112 0.74 45.41 JP BB 10 Yamato 51.45 78126 0.85 45.59 JP BB 7 Nagato 49.07 46012 0.77 45.60 JP BB 5 ARP Haruna 55.98 43172 0.95 46.16 KM BB 8 Tirpitz 51.64 52281 0.83 46.57 US BB 8 North Carolina 48.56 46801 0.73 46.89 JP BB 8 Amagi 50.74 56891 0.89 47.30 JP BB 6 Fuso 50.25 41827 0.86 47.53 US BB 10 Montana 51.35 65586 0.85 49.89 JP BB 5 ARP Hiei 35.71 43920 1.14 50.00

 

Some guys seem to have missed this table full of random numbers...

[Kazomir]

DDs specced for survivability miss out on more offensive abilities. Nerf survivability expert we will switch to Demo expert and burn you to death. Which will be a problem to complain about aswell. If something Surv. Expert needs to be buffed for cruisers and battleships instead.

 

No point in arguing now, lets just see what the Radar will do.

 

Oh, I at least agree, as far as tier 8 and up, destroyer's concealment is too high. Better base concealment despite larger displacement PLUS concealment modules is baffling.

[txtspeak]

as an avid DD player, I have to agree with the OP???

wait WHAAAA!

yes.

in my kamikaze R and isokaze I have witnessed myself getting out of SO many situations I did not deserve to, armour piercing does almost nothing to Destroyers because they have no armour or citadell. and after one or two fires HE does next to nothing either, and almost every single time I have gone up against a DD in a cruiser I have had 2 or 3 more teammates on me. so thats the only reason we are able to effectively take them down. If I was on my own... well.

warning. gruesome analogy incoming

I would probably have a torPINGAS shoved so far up my [edited]I would be vomiting its propellor fuel.

I fee like DDs just take less damage generally and that almost completely compensates them for having less health

!!?!?!?!??! da hell happened to my spoiler!!??!?

ok its working now

[RamirezKurita]

First of all, shifting the blame on the CV is again obfuscating the issue that CAs are as as right now the weakest and least useful class in the game. Intended as jacks of all trades, the constant buffs and nerfs to the various classes have made them to masters of none.

 

To be honest, part of the problem with cruisers right now is the lack of carriers in upper-middle play which has taken one of their core roles from them as well as removing one of the core counters for destroyers as carriers can largely remove their concealment advantage. I have repeatedly stated that any buff to carriers is an indirect buff to cruisers and an indirect nerf to destroyers.

[SethAbercromby]

False. A buff to carriers will just make cruisers worse.

 

A CV completely unchallenged in air-dominance is just as big a problem as uncontrolled DDs. And not only do you expect of them a role that is not part of their intended repertoire, you just add the additional case that if the CVs of either side loses control over their airspace, such as in most IJN vs USN fighter setups, then you just magnify the problem by now having two elements CAs cannot not appropriately respond to.

 

Just start understanding for crying out loud, a game that only operates in extremes will only see extremes happening. CAs are supposed to control 2 elements on the playing field, also fighting among each other to strip the opposing team of their counter-options and trying to avoid BB shelling. CAs themselves are mostly fine, but their hard-counter options have been degraded so far that DDs are not afraid of them, CVs do not bother with them and the only thing left for them to do is fight among each other, with BBs regularly putting a premature end to that.

[MudMonkey]

I guess we are talking mostly about IJN DD tier 8 and up, right? Most problems are with those after all. Or do you guys get nuked by invisible russian DDs?

 

I said it before and i say it again. The main problem is, that those high tier jap DDs nearly every time can do whatever they want. They just don't get detected. And thats the problem. They need to be put into more danger.

When there were more CVs in game there was at least some spotting that they couldn't really evade. But now they can detect/see everybody from far and can even try to torp other DDs.

 

But in the end we are going in cricles here. The moment CVs are playable again, the situation will go back to what it was before. As it was said uncoutable times before: We need to fix CVs and make CAs stronger in detecting DDs with good camo.

 

Therefore to ask for a survivablity nerf for DDs is not what we need. Because why should they not have the same chances surviving a game like a BB which costs you the same amount of XP and credits?

[ghostbuster_]

no need for nerfs to dds. just limit the number of them with 3 per team. Everything will be fine.

[RamirezKurita]

no need for nerfs to dds. just limit the number of them with 3 per team. Everything will be fine.

 

That's just mitigating the problem rather than actually solving it. It would basically be WG metaphorically flipping the table and admitting that they cannot deal with the balance so they force equal brokenness on both sides rather than fixing what's broken.

[SethAbercromby]

Therefore to ask for a survivablity nerf for DDs is not what we need. Because why should they not have the same chances surviving a game like a BB which costs you the same amount of XP and credits?

Except stealth, size and maneuverability are already their ticket for suitability. They have everything you'd ever need on top of having no particular weaknesses. You cannot expect to have your cake and eat it too. A spotted DD should be in trouble if he gets hit, if the prime danger comes from planes, then DDs need to play more carefully around their teammates, using CA cover fire to either remain undetected or to have the opponent risk their planes in exchange for intelligence.

 

DDs not needing to worry too muchabout a hit or two and CAs not being the kind of effective AA cover they are supposed to be have led us to where we are now. The fact that CV spotting is the only thing posing any sort of significant threat to a DD should give you pause for thought, not conclude that CVs are obviously the appropriate counter.

[Capra76]

Except stealth, size and maneuverability are already their ticket for suitability. They have everything you'd ever need on top of having no particular weaknesses. You cannot expect to have your cake and eat it too. A spotted DD should be in trouble if he gets hit, if the prime danger comes from planes, then DDs need to play more carefully around their teammates, using CA cover fire to either remain undetected or to have the opponent risk their planes in exchange for intelligence.

 

DDs not needing to worry too muchabout a hit or two and CAs not being the kind of effective AA cover they are supposed to be have led us to where we are now. The fact that CV spotting is the only thing posing any sort of significant threat to a DD should give you pause for thought, not conclude that CVs are obviously the appropriate counter.

 

 

What kind of DD are you playing if you don't mind about "a hit or two"?  One salvo from a CA can easily wipe out 50% of your health and a spotted DD is target #1 for everyone in range.

[robihr]

deja vu again..

 

seriously stop posting this kind of topics... also you have one sticky topic about "OP" ships.

[ColonelPete]

... a spotted DD is target #1 for everyone in range.

 

If that were true....

[SethAbercromby]

 

 

What kind of DD are you playing if you don't mind about "a hit or two"?  One salvo from a CA can easily wipe out 50% of your health and a spotted DD is target #1 for everyone in range.

 

Yes, that same salvo I can tank in an Isokaze when an Aoba tries to hunt me down, if he even hits at any point and does like 2k damage tops and that is before my superstructure is gone and I only take 50% or less damage. Russian DDs can go in a straight line away from a CA at close to their own max range, increase their distance to them and the rest of the pack and just gun them down while they get hit maybe three to four times, not even lose half health. CA damage is a joke and I know it from both ends, I pop a smoke, bait them out and watch them die when I'm in a DD or don't even engage when I'm in a CA because it's always a losing battle. It takes serious bad luck on several aspects or you have to allow then really very close to lose any significant amount of health in a single volley from any CA.