Second IJN Battleship line discussion

[Affeks]

So I know this won't come for quite some time I assume, but I still just want to go over what we can expect to see later down the line. 

So on the top of my head I came up with this, but I need help to fill out the blanks or please tell me if you think my placements are bad.

 

Tier 3-5:

I expect to see paper ships here, but I can't find anything obvious

 

Tier 6:

I'm pretty sure Ise will fit nicely as it is basically Fuso.

 

Tier 7:

not really sure

 

Tier 8: Tosa

Tosa-class will do the trick as it has the same armament as Amagi. It's slower, but it makes up for it in slightly larger secondary battery and armor

 

Tier 9: Kii

Kii looks like an Amagi, but has better armor. So since Amagi is already pretty strong (I think at least), I think Kii could be a contender for this spot.

Tier 9 contenders include the Fujimoto 30 project and Hiraga designs armed with 16 inch/406 mm main guns

 

Tier 10: A-150 "Super Yamato"

For many I guess this would sound insane as Yamato is already one of the strongest tier 10 ships, and I can understand that as the initial designs for A-150 was a displacement of 90 000+ tons and 3x3 20" or 4x2 20" guns, but let's not forget the design was reworked to be much lighter and only armed with 3x2 20" guns. With some balancing I think the A-150 could be balanced in game.

Tier 10 contenders include the Hiraga design armed with 18" and Number 13 class.

 

I'll write some specs later and do some polishing later, attach some photos maybe?

[ColonelPete]

Too much paper.

 

Ise is the only ship that existed.

[NoirLotus]

The last time the devs talked about Ise, they said it may be in a second CV line, with Tone and some other special japanese CV ...

[Historynerd]

If I'm not mistaken, the devs stated that the Yamato's 460 mm guns are to be considered the upper limit, in terms of gun caliber. This discounts the Design A-150 and other foreign designs like the later H designs for the Kriegsmarine.

[Hauptbahnhof]

Correct 460mm is the biggest allowed.

 

So yeah, Tier 9 or 10 should probably be a Number 13 class ( 8x 457 mm gun )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_13-class_battleship
 

Tier 7 could be a B-65 Battlecruiser (mini-Yamato with torps ):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_B-65_cruiser

 

Even though technically classified a cruiser it's same weight as the Nagato and longer...

 

It would also make alot of sense to consider re-arranging the ships into a Battleship line and a new Battlecruiser line. That means moving out Myogi, Kongo, Amagi and Izumo from the current BB line and putting battleships in their place, Tosa and Kii fits T8 and T9 as pointed out, and No13 could be the Battlecruiser lines T10 (30 knot was planned, but could be faster if belt armor is lowered to make it more Battlecruiserish, it was to be 330mm initially which is slightly more then Iowa but way less then Yamato & Montana). Potentially keep Izumo as BB and put Kii in BC line (It's basically an Amagi with more armor).

 

 

Alot of players right now are confused jumping between battleships and battle-cruisers at Tier 5, 6, 7 and back again at 8 and 9, since they have quite different play-styles.

[Mucker]

I believe WG also said that 203 mm is the maximum caliber allowed for cruisers. See how long that lasted.  

[Hauptbahnhof]

I believe WG also said that 203 mm is the maximum caliber allowed for cruisers. See how long that lasted.  

 

Soviet ships don't need to obey the rules... only the other nations

 

You should know that by know.

[ColonelPete]

I believe WG also said that 203 mm is the maximum caliber allowed for cruisers. See how long that lasted.  

Cannot be true, see Yorck.

[Mayv]

 

Soviet ships don't need to obey the rules... only the other nations

 

You should know that by know.

 

Its not like the Yorck has 210mm guns.

[Combat_Hamster]

I see a  huge  problem  modelling Ise in the game ( pre-carrier conversion ).  There wasn't  the hull depth to  give  X and Y turret the increased  elevation of the other turrets, so they were limited  to 20,000 yards, whereas  the other turrets, and those  on all the other  14" gunned  Japanese capital ships  were,  for 28,000 yards ( not the trans-dimensional range they have in the game ).  I think this will be  very difficult to replicate

[CatOnKeyboard]

We can have Super Yamato when we get HMS Habbakuk 

[Affeks]

Too much paper.

 

Ise is the only ship that existed.

Tosa was remade to Kaga so it kinda existed

If I'm not mistaken, the devs stated that the Yamato's 460 mm guns are to be considered the upper limit, in terms of gun caliber. This discounts the Design A-150 and other foreign designs like the later H designs for the Kriegsmarine.

I remember, but I always believed they would disregard it and use 20" and 19" guns as well. Tbh i would rather give the game more variety than let Yamato keep her pride.

[Affeks]

Tier 7 could be a B-65 Battlecruiser (mini-Yamato with torps ):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_B-65_cruiser

Personally I hope the B-65 will be a premium tier 8 CB, and treat it like they would treat the Alaska class and project 1047, giving them a unique identity as the ultimate middleroad between battleships/battlecruisers and Heavy Cruisers giving them something like a sweet mix of both Battleship and Cruiser consumables.

But that's a discussion for another time, but I gotta remember to make a thread about ships crossing the line between ship roles to make ships fit in higher tiers than their stats would imply, like the Agano (would make a great mix between CL and DD) and possibly hybrid carriers.

[Hauptbahnhof]

I see a  huge  problem  modelling Ise in the game ( pre-carrier conversion ).  There wasn't  the hull depth to  give  X and Y turret the increased  elevation of the other turrets, so they were limited  to 20,000 yards, whereas  the other turrets, and those  on all the other  14" gunned  Japanese capital ships  were,  for 28,000 yards ( not the trans-dimensional range they have in the game ).  I think this will be  very difficult to replicate

 

What you mean with trans-dimensional range? The Fuso in reality had longer range then in the game...

 

I don't think it's a huge difference, the Ise could have slightly shorter range of 18.2km (20k yards) and still be very competitive to the fuso's 21.8km or even Amagis 19.9km many tiers above it, or the shorter/similar ranged US battleships.

 

Or the average it to be 20-21km instead ( 2/3:ed the way between the ranges ).

[Affeks]

I see a  huge  problem  modelling Ise in the game ( pre-carrier conversion ).  There wasn't  the hull depth to  give  X and Y turret the increased  elevation of the other turrets, so they were limited  to 20,000 yards, whereas  the other turrets, and those  on all the other  14" gunned  Japanese capital ships  were,  for 28,000 yards ( not the trans-dimensional range they have in the game ).  I think this will be  very difficult to replicate

 

I'm pretty sure wargaming would disregard that fact as most ships had some faults that would make modeling difficult. For example how they never designed the game to add reload time for guns that can't reload at any elevation. They've already done it and undoubtedly will again

[Historynerd]

I remember, but I always believed they would disregard it and use 20" and 19" guns as well. Tbh i would rather give the game more variety than let Yamato keep her pride.

 

To be honest, I don't feel that the addition of bigger guns would add that much variety, but this is just my opinion...

 

Also, I don't feel that it's a matter of pride; I think that it's the matter that the 40cm installed on the Yamato were the biggest guns ever built and that saw service on a warship, and I believe it's the best place to draw a line.

[Affeks]

 

To be honest, I don't feel that the addition of bigger guns would add that much variety, but this is just my opinion...

 

Also, I don't feel that it's a matter of pride; I think that it's the matter that the 40cm installed on the Yamato were the biggest guns ever built and that saw service on a warship, and I believe it's the best place to draw a line.

I still disagree, less guns yet bigger caliber will make the A-150 even better vs. BBs but extensively worse against smaller and more manouverable targets. also what you just said is a matter of pride, wargaming disregards many historical values (which I don't mind) and Yamato's pride was being the largest and most heavily armed ship of WW2

[Historynerd]

I still disagree, less guns yet bigger caliber will make the A-150 even better vs. BBs but extensively worse against smaller and more manouverable targets.

 

Well, I tend to prefer a higher number of guns of smaller caliber, but that's down to personal preferences.

 

In any case, I don't know if there are plans to alter this, but it seems that right now the Yamato's 460 mm guns are very effective against BBs and especially against its Tier 10 opponent, the Montana. So, do we really need bigger guns to improve on this? Don't forget that most Tier 10 BB designs would have an insufficient protection against such weapons (even against the 40cm they will probably tend to struggle), so we might find ourselves with a bit of an unbalance here.

But these are just my two cents, I repeat. A way for it to work may be found, I'm just skeptical.

[RamirezKurita]

To be honest, you wouldn't even need to include the A-150s in the game, you could just include the planned modernisations for the Yamatos. The Yamatos were planned to be upgunned to 3x2 51cm guns, as well as their AA battery was planned to be replaced with the 10cm twin mounts, which would effectively turn them into A-150s, the actual differences would be minimal.

 

Rather than a second battleship line, I would rather if they just split the battleships and battlecruisers into their own lines. It would be pretty easy considering how 3 of the ships already in the current line are battlecruisers.

[Affeks]

 

Well, I tend to prefer a higher number of guns of smaller caliber, but that's down to personal preferences.

 

In any case, I don't know if there are plans to alter this, but it seems that right now the Yamato's 460 mm guns are very effective against BBs and especially against its Tier 10 opponent, the Montana. So, do we really need bigger guns to improve on this? Don't forget that most Tier 10 BB designs would have an insufficient protection against such weapons (even against the 40cm they will probably tend to struggle), so we might find ourselves with a bit of an unbalance here.

But these are just my two cents, I repeat. A way for it to work may be found, I'm just skeptical.

 

I understand your concerns, I used to have the exact same thoughts. But after seing the difference between Tirpitz's 15" vs. Warspites 15" I started believeing that balance may be found even if stats say otherwise.

 

I think Montana, Yamato and A-150 would have the same theoretical DPM, but the larger caliber you go the worse they will be against smaller targets and using HE will be much more ineffective, but in turn better penetration. Also I'm afraid too many tier 10 BBs will use 18" guns (Yamato, number 13, N3, Hiraga 18" design etc).

[Affeks]

Rather than a second battleship line, I would rather if they just split the battleships and battlecruisers into their own lines. It would be pretty easy considering how 3 of the ships already in the current line are battlecruisers.

I actually agree to this, but if we split the CC and BB line it will still be 2 lines and we still need the second BB/CC line 

[PzAbteilung]

i dont really like paper ships, the less, the better

[Affeks]

i dont really like paper ships, the less, the better

 

Haha I can see why, however for me this is a game all about what ifs. Like RN and Kriegsmarine ships battling it out as allies against IJN and USN ships on the other team all while backed up by ships that never had the chance to shine because of the London Naval treaty. You can't get that every day.

[RamirezKurita]

I actually agree to this, but if we split the CC and BB line it will still be 2 lines and we still need the second BB/CC line

 

Yeah, but having separate CC and BB lines makes far more sense than simply having two mixed lines. Oddly enough, we had a bit of a discussion on the battleships section of the forum on this topic (for some reason, in the thread about German battleships, but that's beside the point).

 

Making a battleship line is pretty easy, as you can go from the Kawachis, through a couple of Fuso preliminaries, to the Fusos and Nagatos before the Tosas, Izumos and finally the Yamatos.

 

The battlecruiser line is a bit trickier, if only because it has to delve a bit deeper into the paper designs. Up until T5 it would basically be the Kongos and some of their preliminaries, with optional armoured cruiser at T2 if they want to include some stuff from the predreadnoughts, T6 I'm not sure about but T7 has an Amagi preliminary with 4x2 41cm guns from the same time as the Nagatos, T8 would obviously be the Amagis, T9 would be the Number 13s (they fit better here than at T10 as they are actually smaller than the Iowas in addition to being a lot older), I'm not sure about T10 though unless there's some 30+ knot battlecruiser Yamato prelim.

[Historynerd]

I understand your concerns, I used to have the exact same thoughts. But after seing the difference between Tirpitz's 15" vs. Warspites 15" I started believeing that balance may be found even if stats say otherwise.

 

I think Montana, Yamato and A-150 would have the same theoretical DPM, but the larger caliber you go the worse they will be against smaller targets and using HE will be much more ineffective, but in turn better penetration. Also I'm afraid too many tier 10 BBs will use 18" guns (Yamato, number 13, N3, Hiraga 18" design etc).

 

Well, how many Tier 10 IJN BBs do you want to see? Are you suggesting a third or even a fourth BB line?  XD