There is something fishy going on with BB AP "damage rolls" ...

[havaduck]

I have had this problem a lot "recently" (aka this recent major patch that broke more than it fixed): Obscure damage numbers on regular penetrations.

 

How can that be? The max damage per shell is given and a regular pen is 33 % of it; you ask?

Well, dunno thats how its supposed to be - but not what the game reality shows ...

 

The usual problem I had (in obtaining comprehensive proof), were multiple shell hits or damaged ships (depletion?) and stuff like that ....

 

... until today: Start of the Match, full hp target and exactly one shell hits the New York for .... 2583 damage? wth? Thats like  ~ 25,32 % of the max damage rating. Whereas there shouldnt be anything possible between 10 % (overpen) and 33 % (regular pen) in this exact situation outlined above.

 

Ofc I have proof (and the replay if needed ...):

 

 

You can look at the damage popping up, the damage counter or the missing HP on the New York ..... the same story everywhere. (Although I usually had lower obscure damage rolls; much closer to an over-pen. This one is quite "high")

€: inb4 "this is HE": The damage roll doesnt fit, I had AP selected, I use a coloring mod that shows AP shells, there is the "AP penetration sound" when the shell hits and lastly: I know I used AP.

 

 

I initially thought this problem was related to the ARP Kongo since I played that a lot while helping some division mates grind their T5s - but it also happened in Fuso. So a general IJN 35 cm problem? Sadly not since I also had it in the Colorado.

 

You have to take my word in this cases since I dont have such comprehensive proof like the above. (Because of somewhere during the matches, damages ships, multiple shell hits etc ...)

 

 

 

Maybe there is something I am missing, which is entirely possible since I have been wrong before, in which case I would be grateful for any enlightenment by fellow forumites ...

 

 

 

 

________

 

Excerpt from the Wiki on AP:

 

Non-penetrations (bounce/ricochet) will always deal 0 damage, regardless of AP or HE (however, HE shells still has a chance to start fires or break modules with its splash damage). Penetrations deal x0.33 of the shell's listed damage. Whether AP or HE, it must penetrate the armor and detonate inside the ship. Over-penetrations deal x0.10 of the shell's listed damage. Over-penetration is when a shell penetrates the ship through-and-through, before it has a chance to detonate inside the ship. Theoretically HE will never over-penetrate due to its low detonator threshold and shorter fuze. Citadel hits will always deal x1.0 of the shell's listed damage. This is only achieved if the shell penetrates the armor and the citadel. It is impossible to get a citadel hit on a destroyer, as they no longer have them per se (it was removed in 0.2.4/0.3.0). Prior to 0.4.1, penetrations on a destroyer's midsection will deal x0.5 of the shell's listed damage (in lieu of the absence of citadels), however this is no longer the case and penetrations to it will deal the standard x0.33 of the shell's listed damage.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration_%28WoWS%29#Armor-Piercing

[JapLance]

Penetrations?

 

All I get from the guns of either Nagato and North Carolina are mostly overpenetrations with minimal damage or (very rarely) citadels every time I aim at a cruiser. I'd be seriously contemplating firing only HE if it wasn't that I decided to completely give up Battleships for a long time.

[VC381]

I haven't been playing long enough to have a good idea of what T5/6 battleship damage should be like before 5.3 but I've been very frustrated with my Kongo and Fuso recently for really random unreliable damage. I haven't looked out for specific damage numbers but basically if I'm shooting at any US BB I now switch to HE because AP just gives me weird damage even if I see the hits land in places that can't be over-pens. Probably doesn't help you since I've not done any "hard testing" but adding a voice as it were.

[Ebu34]

I agree something wrong with BBs pen and overpens.

[Azalgor]

Noticed this on Kongo and Fuso, havent played them since CBT, as OBT started i went on US tree. Got me a Fuso and sold it after playing some 10 battles. Dispersion is crap, penetration is even worse, as i couldnt penetrate a New Mexico that was showing me her full broadside from 5 km, i got 8 out of 12 Shells into between her smoke stack and C turret section on the waterline for.....4,5k dmg....10 km away cruisers - RNG plays the part and all the shells land around the cruiser with no hits, adjusting aim, cruiser turns, all shells land perfectly around it again...Sold....Kongo is a bit better, but rather hunt cruisers than BB...was very dissapointed to see how these to awesome ships were turned into poop.

[Astalano]

I haven't been playing long enough to have a good idea of what T5/6 battleship damage should be like before 5.3 but I've been very frustrated with my Kongo and Fuso recently for really random unreliable damage. I haven't looked out for specific damage numbers but basically if I'm shooting at any US BB I now switch to HE because AP just gives me weird damage even if I see the hits land in places that can't be over-pens. Probably doesn't help you since I've not done any "hard testing" but adding a voice as it were.

 

A lot of people don't understand BB armour configuration.

 

US BBs have a LOT of armour near the citadel, the center of the ship. Unless you're at relatively close range it is not worth trying to get a good hit here. Aim for the forward and aft sections of the ship, preferrably under the gun turrets. 

 

US BBs use the 'all or nothing' principle of armour, so the citadel is massively armoured but the rest of the ship is lightly armoured. Even if you don't do a citadel hit on the forward and rear sections, you can still consistently do a great deal of damage as well as knock out turrets and such. 

 

IJN BBs mostly have armour that protects them from cruiser fire, in keeping with battlecruiser tradition, and it is more spread out around the ship. They are also faster and less weighed down by armour. So it is much easier to get a central citadel on a Myogi than on a Wyoming, for example, but the Wyoming will be vulnerable to penetrations and even citadels from cruisers with high penetration guns at relatively close range while the Myogi will be less so in certain respects. 

[DirtyFilthyScoundrel]

I'd agree with this also.

 

Went into a training room to test my theory last night in my izumo vs 8 other izumo's all of which were standing dead still

15km - maybe 3-5 shells out of 9 hit, rarely get a damage roll upwards of 4km regardless of where I aim...

10km - closer to an average of 5 shells hitting out of 9 - same average damage roll

5km - 6/7 shells damage now going upwards as citadels now start appearing

 

though honestly im not sure if this is an issue with the izumo's guns or BB's on the whole - also at tier 9 I'd hope I know where to aim for proper damage rolls... 

[Pajosaurus]

I second the sentiment expressed here. I've almost completely moved away from BBs since the latest patch and I just don't know what it is. The damage output of my BBs has become utterly unreliable, perfectly broadside cruisers are very hard to citadel, shells are going all over the place, worse than ever, overpens all day long.  I like to believe I'm a solid player and I have my fair share of BB battles with very good results, especially in IJN ships, but lately I feel unable to perform adequately (now that sounds kinky! ) and I can't influence the match to any significant degree. (I too started a topic on this issue a while ago.)

[havaduck]

Sorry but I think a lot of people are misunderstanding me:
 

- I am not talking about how the BB dispersion can troll you - thats old news,

 

or

 

- how you can or cant penetrate/citadel on x-stuff - that has also grown a beard.

 

 

 

I am rather talking about apparent "damage rolls" that shouldnt be a "roll" in the first place but rather a easily determinated number .

 

 

 

[Pajosaurus]

Okay yeah, I get ya. I still contend there's multiple fishy things going on with AP rounds. Your experience serves to show you that behind-the-scenes math is screwed somehow.

[N00b32]

Sorry but I think a lot of people are misunderstanding me:

 

 

They just want to make a comment regardless of topic. Anyway, do you have 10200 or 10000 damage shown in your port for the guns ? Maybe the gun upgrade has some problem and not the gun itself. 

 

My theory was first guns do 7500 damage and 200 more with the upgrade at it is only shown wrong in the port (to a total of 7700). But for your value they should make more like 7750 damage.

[havaduck]

The ARP Kongo doesnt have any upgrades - It comes as a fully upgraded Kongo with a fancy paint job and a squeaky voice. ;)

 

So the answer has to be 10200 max damage for AP.

 

Still, thanks. I was wonding if I wrote unclear in the initial post.

[fnord_disc]

7750 * 0.33 = 2583.33 => 2583

 

Doesn't explain it, but I feel that it's important.

[havaduck]

Yeah at least it got me suspicious ( ^^ ) and firing up the game for a quick look:

 

Kawachi has 7900 Max AP rating.

Mikasa has 7700

South Carolina has 8100

Ishizuchi has 8000

 

and finnaly Hindenburg as "best" cruiser 5500 k.

 

€: ofc I dont see the german BB guns, that supposedly are already in the game ...

[fnord_disc]

Yeah at least it got me suspicious ( ^^ ) and firing up the game for a quick look:

 

Kawachi has 7900 Max AP rating.

Mikasa has 7700

South Carolina has 8100

Ishizuchi has 8000

 

and finnaly Hindenburg as "best" cruiser 5500 k.

 

€: ofc I dont see the german BB guns, that supposedly are already in the game ...

 

The mined stats on GM3D don't have 7.75k AP for any gun in the game. I checked.

 

Like I said, I just feel it's important. I don't have an explanation.

 

Can you upload the replay so we may check where the shell hit?

[anonym_gxxGX7KaxQVa]

isn't that simply the case that it does less than the 33% damage (or the 10% if overpen) if it penetrates a section of the ship that's already been heavily damaged ? (= looks black on the Model)

i know this is the case for HE , but if i remember correctly, this is also the case for AP Regular and Overpens.... bottomline, ONLY Citadel Hits will ALWAYS do 100% fixed damage in every situation (even if they citadel a section of ship already Heavily Damaged )

 

as a resuly when you get within a salvo, a mix of Overpens and regular pens in undamaged sections and damaged sections of the ship, that whould explain the Oddball total damage numbers you can see sometimes don't fall in line with X nuber of 10% overpens + X number of 33% overpens...

just my 2 cents tough

 

 

as for Weird Dispersion some people report, i've not seen anything in the most recent patch. i did seem to notice in the last major patch (the one that temporarily broke the underwater citadels a few month back) that dispersion got worse, maybe, in that patch, and was never fixed, but i'm not even really sure of that... + i wasn't as experienced back then so who know, maybe it's just my memory tricking me ?

i'd rather withold judgment altogether TBH because 2000+ games of experience have eventually taught me just how much Placebo effect is involved with anything regarding BB RNG...

[havaduck]

isn't that simply the case that it does less than the 33% damage (or the 10% if overpen) if it penetrates a section of the ship that's already been heavily damaged ? (= looks black on the Model)

i know this is the case for HE , but if i remember correctly, this is also the case for AP Regular and Overpens.... bottomline, ONLY Citadel Hits will ALWAYS do 100% fixed damage in every situation (even if they citadel a section of ship already Heavily Damaged )

 

 

as a resuly when you get within a salvo, a mix of Overpens and regular pens in undamaged sections and damaged sections of the ship, that whould explain the Oddball total damage numbers you can see sometimes don't fall in line with X nuber of 10% overpens + X number of 33% overpens...

just my 2 cents tough

 

 

 

and thats exactly the reason why I waited with my post until I had a hit right at the start of the game on a _full hp_ target.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you upload the replay so we may check where the shell hit?

 

 

Here you go:   20160305_221309_PJSB705-Kongou_17_NA_fault_line.zip   1.84MB

 

The rest doesnt show anything, except a horrible defeat and that you can point out and even tell your cvs exactly where and what to hit (or at least keep spotted ...): The one thing you cant see and reliably decap. Only for them to ignore it, ofc, and even go and strike ships not even capping ...

 

aproaching:

 

 

hit:

 

 

afterglow:

 

 

Dunno how accurate that representation is, but it seems like the shell went clean trough the bridge and pierced the armored deck.

 

20160305_221309_PJSB705-Kongou_17_NA_fault_line.zip

[Tyrendian89]

isn't that simply the case that it does less than the 33% damage (or the 10% if overpen) if it penetrates a section of the ship that's already been heavily damaged ? (= looks black on the Model)

i know this is the case for HE , but if i remember correctly, this is also the case for AP Regular and Overpens.... bottomline, ONLY Citadel Hits will ALWAYS do 100% fixed damage in every situation (even if they citadel a section of ship already Heavily Damaged )

 

 

would have been a valid theory, but you might want to take a look at the actual screenshot... that was the first shot in the game. So, theory meets reality and goes the way of the Dodo.

[Astalano]

 

 

and thats exactly the reason why I waited with my post until I had a hit right at the start of the game on a _full hp_ target.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here you go:   20160305_221309_PJSB705-Kongou_17_NA_fault_line.zip   1.84MB

 

The rest doesnt show anything, except a horrible defeat and that you can point out and even tell your cvs exactly where and what to hit (or at least keep spotted ...): The one thing you cant see and reliably decap. Only for them to ignore it, ofc, and even go and strike ships not even capping ...

 

aproaching:

 

 

hit:

 

 

afterglow:

 

 

Dunno how accurate that representation is, but it seems like the shell went clean trough the bridge and pierced the armored deck.

 

 

Looks like it penned the superstructure and then ricocheted off the armoured deck.

[havaduck]

 

Looks like it penned the superstructure and then ricocheted off the armoured deck.

 

 

Nope, didnt see a ricochet. Could be my use of mods tough, but there werent any .... "that thing that looks like a single big spark when using power tools - indicating a bounce".

 

 

€: The afterglow for a hit is normal: here I got cit penned in the Clev:

 

 

 

 

Simmilar chain of events and the whole thing looks exactly the same: the shell pierces the secondary turret 2 times, and the Superstructure (how its modeled) at least 3 times, then the armored deck and finally even the citadel roof until settling for the forward boiler room.

 

 

[Astalano]

 

 

Nope, didnt see a ricochet. Could be my use of mods tough, but there werent any .... "that thing that looks like a single big spark when using power tools - indicating a bounce".

 

 

€: The afterglow for a hit is normal: here I got cit penned in the Clev:

 

 

 

 

Simmilar chain of events and the whole thing looks exactly the same: the shell pierces the secondary turret 2 times, and the Superstructure (how its modeled) at least 3 times, then the armored deck and finally even the citadel roof until settling for the forward boiler room.

 

 

 

Well, the armour of a battleship and a cleveland are substantially different. 

 

It looks like it penetrated a certain layer of armour on top and didn't make it through to any important parts. 

[havaduck]

How can you tell?

Or did I take it wrong and you werent judging by the appearence on the screenshots? (Thats why I posted the Clev pics - they show a pen - in case you mistook the afterglow for how a bounce looks)

 

also:

 

 

It looks like it penetrated a certain layer of armour on top and didn't make it through to any important parts. 

 

 

and still, what you describe is exactly a regular pen, which puts us at the initial problem that 10200 * 0,33 is not 2683. 

The shell probably went clean trough the bridge and the SS layer that is there to seperate the SS from the rest of the ship. Then through the armored deck and since this is a heavily armored battleship got catched by one of the other decks or at the very least couldnt penetrate the ultimate citadel roof.

 

€: Even if we assume it detonated in the SS since the angle was shallow and there was "enough SS to travel through" - its still a regular pen; with a bugged damage number. Tirpitz takes monstrous amounts of damage on her SS for example ...

[Gojuadorai]

i taking a longshoot here but i think i read/heard some where that the superstructure has independent hp from the rest of the ship.

that was used to explain why you do great dmg to bbs with low cal he at start but then when superstructure is "dead" you do next to nothing cause the shells fail to do dmg through deck armor.

i dont now if this information is valid 

 

there are certainly diffrent hp pools (repairable vs no-repairable aka citadel dmg) see patchnotes for cruiser repair for example.

 

so if the first pice of information is correct it might be you just outdamaged the ship part you hit doing the max of left hp.

[havaduck]

plz have a look at the screenshot in the initial post:

 

- first shots/first hit in the game

- full hp target.

- no depletion

 

There was a bug for example with Iowas SS which was way to low and easily depleted, but here the SS would have to have a hp pool less than 3,4 k. Now while possible in the sense of "its a bug", experience from other games tell me otherwise: New Yorks SS is fine. These strange damage rolls are also not tied to a specific gun OR target.

[fnord_disc]

It's very clearly a penetration of the superstructure and explosion inside the superstructure (NOT an overpenetration and the shell never makes it to the armored deck).

 

This is a very rare situation due to the low armor of the superstructure and is only possible because you hit the relatively well-armored bridge at an angle, so the shell doesn't immediately leave the superstructure again but explodes above the deck.

 

I'm quite sure this is a combination of exotic damage thresholds. At 0% damage taken the superstructure receives 100% of the 33% penetration damage, and when the first threshold is passed, 16.5% (of 100%, i.e. half of a normal penetration). When the second threshold is passed, it receives 0%.

 

Theoretically the damage of a penetration hit to the superstructure is 3400 from Kongo, so I assume that it depletes the superstructure by some amount x (the first threshold) and the remaining damage is modified by the aforementioned 0.165/0.33=1/2 before it depletes the superstructure by a maximum of y (the second threshold or less). All that remains then is floored to 0.

 

It's very likely that the superstructure was never fully depleted by your single hit, since Wargaming chooses round values for the health of their modules. If we assume that the damage did not deplete the superstructure, we can solve

 

x*3+y*6=10200

x+y=2583

 

for x=817 damage threshold and y=1766 damage (threshold)

 

y is not necessarily exactly the second threshold; it could be less.

 

Sadly this does not agree with the values mined by GM3D, which gives New Yorks superstructure as having 500/900 HP, depending on hull, although it doesn't list the thresholds. Despite this, I feel like this is what happened.

 

The reason these mechanics are not normally apparent is because penetrations on the superstructure are very rare, and overpenetrations always deal 10% damage, even if the HP are depleted. *

 

* Yes, that means that if the HP are depleted, overpenetrations will continue to deal damage and penetrations will not.