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Seargent_Nigel

Destroyers - what % see the end of a battle?

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How many Destroyer commanders actually get to the end of a battle?

This question is more directed to Destroyers up to tier 6 - as Destroyers above this seem to have far better capabilities of keeping alive.

 

As I'm fairly new to Destroyers (I usually use Cruisers) is it just an accepted thing that you do as much damage as possible early on before you get pounded to death as most Destroyers do?

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Weekend Tester, In AlfaTesters
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My rates (first: Battles, secont WR; third survival Rate):

(DDs that I played for at least 15 games):

Mutsuki T6: 17 - 65% - 59%

Nicholas T5: 28 - 57% - 35%

Farragut T6: 32 - 63% - 38%

Minekaze T5: 117 - 65% - 38%

 

I rate that numbers quite bad, because the DDs mentioned above were my fist DDs played after relase when I still sucked at them (and I still am, since Im not the best, still lots of improvement needed).

 

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[EW_YK]
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Well actually I personally find it allot easier to stay alive in DD's under T6 as in high tiers if you get spoted in a DD especially one that has torps the heavens shall open up on you :). If you need tips or a division partner for low tier DDs (I still have the Clemson T4 and the Kamikaze T5) I am more than happy to help you out in the evenings after I get off work so you get the hang of this class.

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Beta Tester
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For me there's not much of a difference, I seem to survive somewhere between 40-60 percent of my games, regardless of class or tier. And no, I wouldn't say it's more acceptable to die early on, on the contrary destroyers are at their strongest once the battle has developed to the point where you have a good idea of which enemies are in which areas, especially enemy DD's since knowing whether there is an enemy DD around or not is crucial to your tactics. Also, if the battle is close and you're not steamrolling the enemy, DD's are often instrumental in capping in the endgame.

 

This doesn't however mean you should play overly cautiously either. In the early game you need to push up and provide vision for your team, possibly spotting enemy DD's which your team can take out etc and if possible cap. At this stage you have to be very careful about firing your guns since it drastically increases your concealment range (by 3.6-5.9 km depending on nation) and this could easilly get you spotted by enemy DD's that you yourself cant't see. It's often wise to hold your fire even if you are in a USN DD and run into an IJN one, normally your ideal scenario, and let your team handle it just so you can keep concealment down. In other situations however you absolutely should take it down ASAP, it's all about reading the situation. I play USN mostly and early game I scout and actively hunt for other DD's to engage, but only if he they aren't backed up by four cruisers in plain view 9 km away. If playing IJN you should scout and cap but you also have the ability to deny enemies from going a certain direction at a certain time by deploying torpedoes. But again, try to stay alive, but ot to the point of being uselessly passive.

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http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20160227/eu_week/average_ship.html

 

Here are the EU Server stats, take a look yourself.

 

 

​Good little chart that - does highlight the fact that not many make it over 40%

 

Guess like most things - its a learning curve on how to stay alive longer - I'll just know it wont be as long as I'd like!! - bit like real life really.

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I seem to have two phases to my battles and it's dependent on how many DDs are in the enemy team.  If I manage to get through the first phase (The lets hunt the DDs phase) I can then settle more into my more favorite phase (the lets be a stealthy DD and hunt specific targets).

 

Personally I don't survive much in my Shima to game end as it's quite squishy and if I get spotted in the first phase I can end up toast quite quickly. It's not the best DD hunter to be honest and much better if I can stay un spotted. I much prefer the game where there are only 2 or 3 DD per team as when it gets to 6 I just sigh.

 

I got slated yesterday (again) and called a coward LOL. I capped twice and killed 3 and then got called out by the Yama that was 30km from me that I was not in front of him protecting him even though I actually started out on the other side of the map to him. A DD it seems appears to have many roles and many people to please all at the same time :)

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[GAZ]
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I don't tend to see the end of many battles, but I play for fun mostly so don't care if I die 

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I tend to go forward to scout the enemy and once I find them try and harass or sink with torps (harass in order that an enemy DD can't take advantage of my team's ships and in the hope that the larger ships are disrupted so my team get the better shots in).

 

Unfortunately this can result in death when the team you're spotting for slowly edges backwards and doesn't give support against stronger DDs (in my minekaze that means every other nations DD including one tier lower when it comes to guns and rate of fire).


 

Word of caution though, if this happens remember it is your choice to play a certain style of game. It is great to get support but remember your team could be busy with their own problems (hey, its war after all lol). Don't be disheartened; I often leap to another DD in game and see if I can learn anything from their gameplay. Have fun and enjoy the game as best you can. :honoring:

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[TTT]
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​Good little chart that - does highlight the fact that not many make it over 40%

 

Guess like most things - its a learning curve on how to stay alive longer - I'll just know it wont be as long as I'd like!! - bit like real life really.

 

I find this topic quite interesting.

 

When it comes to survival I realized that the longer I survive, the more I win (actually I might have seen mtm78 give this advice to someone). This might sound very intuitive, but it only is if you actually act on it and actually try to increase your survival %. This does not mean that a DD should play the cowards game - far from it - but to make sure you know what kind of situation you are getting yourself into, and consider the risk/reward ratio. 

 

After Season 2 of Ranked Battles I checked my stats and noticed the corollary between (my) survival and (team) win. I reached R1 in both S2 and S3, and for comparison:

S2: Benson, 109 battles, 35.8% survival, 52.3% win

S3: Benson, 166 battles, 42.8% survival, 59% win

(I of course also became a better player in the process, so I also survive, and win, more because of that)

 

The prime figures for me however are these:

 

 

 

 

 

So I lost seven games I survived in. Hence the team is very likely to win if I stay alive. 

 

Again, don't misunderstand me. I play a quite aggressive DD-hunting style in Benson particularly, and will never hesitate to suicide if it means a team win. But sometimes I double check a decision to charge around a particular island, try to solo a cap knowing I might be outnumbered, or take that pot-shot at a BB just because I can. As I contribute more to the team the longer I live, a bit of prudence is sometimes necessary. :)

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Winning without dying is, for me, a sign you have not given your all.

 

Might seem ironic, but for one, When I feel like I have done enough to secure a win, I start risking it more and more, up to the point I start 1v1 gunfight duels vs Battleships  with my DDs.

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[GRKEN]
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Eventually with fewer ships around DD's speed and stealth makes it influential simply through capping.

But IJN DD torpedoing multiple heavier enemy ships in early match before they have time to do damage can indeed turn battle even if getting sinked in the end.

(Some Isokaze/Minekaze can wreck attacking flank in couple minutes)

 

For USN DD such torping just isn't really possible and goal should be (besides capping) taking out enemy DDs and helping team decrease number of enemies.

Maybe allowing you to torp someone coming from behind island's corner. (never showing yourself)

Later you could try to rush close to some distracted lone BB, if you haven't lost much of hitpoints.

Which is really the most devastating torpedo attack:

You can make it impossible for enemy to dodge any of torps instant nuking high health BB which would otherwise win against possibly heavily damaged your team BB.

 

Also later with fewer enemies gunships can help own BBs by firing at enemy BB.

One salvo might not make much damage but dozen salvoes can do enough damage to deny enemy BB one last salvo.

 

 

Guess like most things - its a learning curve on how to stay alive longer - I'll just know it wont be as long as I'd like!! - bit like real life really.

Trick is really in balancing between properly agressive and suicidally agressive to have as much positive influence to match as possible.

Too much carelesness/mistake and DD's fragility quarantees at least heavy damage without anything gained.

But if you don't do much to help team before "end game" it increases the chances of enemy team having gained unreachable superiority in points/ships.

 

This replay has that perfect balance. (and one in 100 match RNG luck with fires)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eoc4qfudmpcetbt/20160220_231945_PRSD001-Gremyashchy-1942_08_NE_passage%20Team%20Carrying%20HC%20with%20guns.wowsreplay?dl=0

(open file in WorldOfWarships.exe if replays aren't familiar)

If you don't have damage counter mod that "first contact" netted 21½k damage to that Aoba giving advantage in northern half of the map.

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[GAZ]
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Winning without dying is, for me, a sign you have not given your all.

 

Might seem ironic, but for one, When I feel like I have done enough to secure a win, I start risking it more and more, up to the point I start 1v1 gunfight duels vs Battleships  with my DDs.

 

this, I don't mind starting gun battles if my smoke/torps are on cool down 

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There certainly is a few differing theory's on game play and how each has their particular way of playing. 

 

As I said, I am new to the Destroyer but I am finding that I would like in every game to sink one ‘Big’ enemy at least, after that I take a few more risks and if needed sacrifice myself for the good of the team if necessary.

 

Don't get me wrong here - I would dearly love to survive every time but in a kamikazeR it’s not that easy to do (for me at least)

 

Remember Kamikaze means = suicidal action!!!!

 

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There certainly is a few differing theory's on game play and how each has their particular way of playing. 

 

As I said, I am new to the Destroyer but I am finding that I would like in every game to sink one ‘Big’ enemy at least, after that I take a few more risks and if needed sacrifice myself for the good of the team if necessary.

 

Don't get me wrong here - I would dearly love to survive every time but in a kamikazeR it’s not that easy to do (for me at least)

 

Remember Kamikaze means = suicidal action!!!!

 

Actually it means Divine Wind.
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[BABBY]
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Pounded to death? Rushing to do damage early? No no, patience and a healthy dose of spotting mechanic knowledge and tactical foresight is how these ships work. DDs are relatively difficult to both learn and master, but have probably the highest skill ceiling in the game. Low tier destroyers are generally very stealthy, far more so than the kind of players typically found at the helm; don't base your idea of how any class should be played on what you see the average player doing.

 

Of my 44 random battles in Gremyashchy (not overly many for a beta ship, but I've used her heavily in ranked) I've survived 31 and won 33. That's a 72% survival rate, or something thereabout. In other (non-overpowered) DDs I have survival rates of around 50%.

Edited by StringWitch

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Always get early spotting in for the team and I may even cap if the coast looks clear but normally I will spot up the enemy DD and pull away to let the cruisers/bb deal with them from long range. Pop some torps off before pulling out, sometimes that gets some first kills. Then go and bully some cruisers or BB and then finish off the CV. That's for IJN.

 

USA destroyers I spot early and pull out for sure, let the team kill some ships and then I will see what enemy are alone - head straight for them no matter what ship they are and sink them at close range. If your lucky it can be up to 3/4 ships if near island and they are not paying attention. That's USA destroyers up to tier 5. The Farragut I have no clue what to do with that horrid floating log.

 

So the IJN you should live longer and to the end of matches. The USA are 50/50 I find, had some really good fun battles in them but the survival rate isn't as good as the IJN. I'm normally in battle with DD for a good part of the match if not to the end. Just don't suicide in them and play smart.

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Alpha Tester, Players, In AlfaTesters
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My most played dd is the Kagero atm, 186 battles, 131 survived, 55% won. I played it quite agressive, going into caps and gunfights with enemy dd. But once my hp got low, i turn to stealth torping. I guess IJN dd have a better survival rate anyway.

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[CATS]
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Here an overview of the survival rates of all DD according to the recent EU stats.

 

Tier Name Win Damage Kills/Battle Survival
3 Derzki 47.08 11.731 0.57 12.82
3 Wickes 48.26 14.023 0.65 13.55
4 Izyaslav 47.28 13.916 0.54 13.79
5 Nicholas 47.55 16.471 0.61 15.36
2 Storozhevoi 46.21 8.019 0.49 15.87
4 Clemson 49.42 17.630 0.71 16.29
2 Tachibana 48.77 13.874 0.74 17.29
5 Gnevny 46.20 16.226 0.58 17.77
2 Sampson 47.54 8.316 0.51 17.88
6 Farragut 48.30 17.333 0.60 19.58
6 Ognevoi 47.52 16.777 0.56 20.09
3 Wakatake 48.23 16.047 0.68 20.91
7 Mahan 48.76 19.471 0.61 22.46
7 Sims 49.90 20.031 0.61 22.60
7 Kiev 51.09 24.415 0.71 24.10
5 Minekaze 50.28 25.501 0.87 24.17
4 Isokaze 51.08 24.318 0.92 24.67
8 Tashkent 50.88 25.292 0.65 27.18
6 Mutsuki 48.39 20.226 0.58 28.39
8 Lo Yang 47.76 22.069 0.64 29.52
7 Hatsuharu 48.77 21.185 0.59 30.05
5 Kamikaze R 53.41 31.758 1.12 30.16
6 Anshan 51.47 21.981 0.73 30.21
7 Blyskawica 52.08 25.849 0.74 31.42
2 Umikaze 52.46 16.747 0.95 33.13
8 Benson 51.27 27.825 0.80 34.04
8 Fubuki 48.48 27.863 0.66 34.92
9 Fletcher 51.55 36.735 0.90 35.92
5 Fujin 59.20 40.144 1.40 37.23
10 Gearing 51.28 45.301 0.93 38.79
5 Gremyashchy 56.33 31.503 1.14 38.98
9 Udaloi 51.66 38.511 0.86 39.08
9 Kagero 48.91 38.556 0.74 42.76
10 Shimakaze 49.41 53.113 0.93 44.18
10 Khabarovsk 52.65 49.087 0.92 44.41

 

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Pounded to death? Rushing to do damage early? No no, patience and a healthy dose of spotting mechanic knowledge and tactical foresight is how these ships work. DDs are relatively difficult to both learn and master, but have probably the highest skill ceiling in the game. Low tier destroyers are generally very stealthy, far more so than the kind of players typically found at the helm; don't base your idea of how any class should be played on what you see the average player doing.

 

Of my 44 random battles in Gremyashchy (not overly many for a beta ship, but I've used her heavily in ranked) I've survived 31 and won 33. That's a 72% survival rate, or something thereabout. In other (non-overpowered) DDs I have survival rates of around 50%.

 

Highest skill ceiling  is probably the CV.  DDs have the highest variation in how one chooses to play his ship. Stealth-fire, torpedoboating, or knife-fighting, or a combination of the three, you have it all.

 

Patience or not depends on the kind of DD you are playing. I play US DDs, so patience is not a good virtue to have in this scenario. Rushing to get in a comfortable position to shut down any shenanigans by enemy IJN DDs and kill them very early on is my strong point.

 

If I were sailing an IJN tho and the enemy had an USN DD on their team, I'd be damn patient thats for sure.

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[GRKEN]
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Patience or not depends on the kind of DD you are playing. I play US DDs, so patience is not a good virtue to have in this scenario. Rushing to get in a comfortable position to shut down any shenanigans by enemy IJN DDs and kill them very early on is my strong point.

Gunship DD player still needs patience, or at least skill to not rush into place where getting spotted means getting nuked by heavier enemies...

Especially if you have seriously obstructed field of view preventing you from detecting anything really dangerous getting close.

 

And that proper planning goes double for Soviet DDs with their cruiser slow turning guns.

Because if you have to start maneuvering for example because of torps then IJN DD can wreck you unless you have good space to allow slower turns.

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Gunship DD player still needs patience, or at least skill to not rush into place where getting spotted means getting nuked by heavier enemies...

Especially if you have seriously obstructed field of view preventing you from detecting anything really dangerous getting close.

 

And that proper planning goes double for Soviet DDs with their cruiser slow turning guns.

Because if you have to start maneuvering for example because of torps then IJN DD can wreck you unless you have good space to allow slower turns.

 

Get too close tho and no matter how much they outgun me they are in for a torpedo feeding :)

 

There is a difference between not being patient and being suicidal :) A small one, but important.

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View PostKazomir, on 29 February 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

Winning without dying is, for me, a sign you have not given your all.

 

Might seem ironic, but for one, When I feel like I have done enough to secure a win, I start risking it more and more, up to the point I start 1v1 gunfight duels vs Battleships  with my DDs.

I don't agree. Because when you give it all (blub blub), you have also given away 75/100 points to the enemy team. Sometimes you need to limp your 100 hp DD to a safe spot; where you can spot, and possibly ninja torp, for team but not be chanced upon by enemy DDs. I do play more fast and loose in Random than in RB, but that's also why I like RB so much.

 

EDIT:

There is a difference between not being patient and being suicidal :) A small one, but important.

Now THIS I agree with.

 

 

Trick is really in balancing between properly agressive and suicidally agressive to have as much positive influence to match as possible.

 

QFT. For me, that's the quintessential DD creed. Couldn't say it better myself. /thread

Edited by gr0pah

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[1UP]
Alpha Tester, Players
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A lot of low tier survival rate comes down to playing aggressive or cautious. Destroyers at low tier actually require a fair bit of skill if you want to last till the end as you need to pick and choose your battles and can't rely on shooting torpedoes outside of spotting range. Most kills will come from smoke ambushes or island ambushes where you catch out someone who doesn't know you're lying in wait.  US DD's are good counters to the IJN DD's due to the better guns, but I've been wrecked plenty of times by well placed torps from IJN DD's before I was able to get them down. 

I have about a 25% survival rate in my Clemson and about a 20% survival rate in my Nicholas. Compare that to my Warspite which has about 30% and tanks like a beast, I'd say it's easily achievable to get both DD survival rates highers so long as I played more patient and less hyper aggressive, especially at the start of matches where I'm more likely to overextend, get a kill and die quickly in return.

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Destroyers at low tier actually require a fair bit of skill if you want to last till the end

 

Low Tier Destroyers are the easiest class to play, even at Tier 4/5 its quite easy to get an average dmg of over 60k with a Survival rate of over 40% (I play very aggressively). You can stick to an battleship on 6km and he wont be able to detect you. Open Sea? Not a problem you can just charge at the battleship, hes to slow to turn, his secondarily guns are to weak, and you still got smoke right? That way you can at least strike once per match, and you got enough HP to do it up to 5 times, even without smoke. Most of the time they have crusiers next to them, they take to long to notice you, or they are just busy shooting somebody else.

 

Destroyers like the Izokaze can take on ever class with ease. The high concealment, the fast speed, the super turning rate, together with the long range (7km), 45s reload torps make it an extremely powerful ship.

Dealing 100-200k dmg in a round with that dd is not a problem.

 

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