World of DD

[kalamies]

Tier doesent matter, cruisers should hunt DDs if possible. While driving shima, worst thing to bump on is non IJN DD or any cruiser. So i would say any cruiser, USA and Soviet DDs are good hunters. Some cruisers have good concealment that DD doesent have time to turn back when cruiser is spotted.

[Ragoutrabbit]

Tier doesent matter, cruisers should hunt DDs if possible. While driving shima, worst thing to bump on is non IJN DD or any cruiser. So i would say any cruiser, USA and Soviet DDs are good hunters. Some cruisers have good concealment that DD doesent have time to turn back when cruiser is spotted.

 

Only way you'll bump into a cruiser is if your Russian, the only Cruiser than can get anywhere near a DD is the premium Atlanta with a 15 skill point captain.

 

The only real threat to a DD currently is another DD spotting it thats it.

[Capra76]

 

Only way you'll bump into a cruiser is if your Russian, the only Cruiser than can get anywhere near a DD is the premium Atlanta with a 15 skill point captain.

 

The only real threat to a DD currently is another DD spotting it thats it.

 

 

Meeting your first Atlanta is an interesting experience for a USN DD captain, you find out the Mahan isn't quite the dog everyone says it is, you can play with torpedoes that can be fired from stealth, get a couple of kills with them, come across an Atlanta, think "everyone says that ship is a dog, I'm having a  good game, I'll try firing a couple of pot shots at it" followed immediately by the thought [edited] as a wall of shells come back at you.

 

 

You never fire on an Atlanta twice in a DD.

[shotgun_mary]

The reason everyone is playing them and the reason the Shimakaze is the most played tier 10 by far is because it lacks any real skill to sit outside of detection and drop walls of torpedoes. With a full damage potential of 300k every couple of minutes with auto aim that RNG has no effect on. Sure you can get detected, but you have get out of jail free cards with your smokes. What if you don't have smokes? Well DDs are small enough and fast enough to just dodge shells anyway which is why modules like the engine and rudder get disabled easily but now you can get last stand easily meaning that is no longer a real problem. When i see a destroyer dodging hundreds of shots I just hear the troll song in my head, it's sometimes just pointless to even try to shoot at them beyond a certain range due to dispersion.

 

Higher tier cruisers aren't anywhere near as good at taking them down as lower tier ones due to the slower gun reload, turret turn time and worse manuoverablity. Why should i suicide myself hunting a dd for my team that can just keep me outside of his detection range and spam torpedoes at me and only land 2 and i'm dead from full health? Having to pay the high repair costs of higher tiers prevents this balls to the wall type gameplay as any DD captain can easily just sink you, The repair cost for losing your ship combined with the damage and detection range of the torpedoes forces people to play ultra defensive making the gameplay really dull and tiresome.

 

The hydoacoustics could be a very useful mechanic if it actually had some decent range but 3.48 assured detectability of ships and 2.5 for torps? Come on it's useless. Maybe up it to 10k for ships and 5k for torps or something. It gives cruisers more of an option of what role they want, anti air or anti destroyer meaning more diversity as both are equally important to the team. A cruiser with this would balance it out better meaning high tier cruisers actually having a purpose, other than free citadel buffets for battleships. It would encourage DDs to use ambush tactics and use cover the same way the Russian and American DDs have to do instead of just sending walls of torpedoes in the general direction of the enemy every couple of minutes. Throw enough crap at a wall and some of it is going to stick. When you see that a Kagero has 5 kills and hasn't been detected(i use a mod that shows a ships last known position if they were detected) once in the game you know something isn't right. 

 

Maybe reduce the cost of using higher tiers so more people are playing them so the matchmaking has a better chance of balancing teams? But that's another topic for another day.

 

Right now they are just troll ships, as every player i have seen in a game using a high tier japanese DD is always a toxic player saying things like "cry more" "go play tetris" etc. You see them on the forums, calling everyone a crap player because they can't dodge torpedoes and you look at their account and they have only played destroyers. The amount of anti torpedo forum posts for World of Warships says it all really and there is always a toxic horrible destroyer only player in each thread.

 

In the current meta it is either join the destroyers, stop playing or continue to play stagnant boring gameplay. FYI i play cruisers 90% of the time, BBS are too slow in every way for me(I usually put autopilot on at the start of a battle and go and make food or a drink because of the speed) and is not my play style at all. I am better at supporting battleships with AA and taking down cruisers.

 

You critisize the game because you love the game. Now have a wall of text to go with the wall of torpedoes.

[DirtyFilthyScoundrel]

 

Spot it on bud, this is me waiting for the replies

[kalamies]

Ragoutrabbit how about this? You are driving your shima at full speed. Suddenly you see Ibuki 9.7km in front of you, in 10secs you are spotted. Ibuki starts firing at you and after few secs another cruisers starts firing from behind it, and its Zao. At this point you are pretty much dead, driving straight is not option since all the dodging means losing speed. Shooting back just means that escaping is impossible.

 

Say ello to my little friend. Many DDs have been suprised by me. Not to mention enemy BBs when cruiser torps are coming and you cant even see it (must be hax) 

But thats how i kill DDs and still manage to live. Using common sense is allowed, i wont go after DD if its too near enemy BBs. And about that maneuverability, its pretty close to shima.

[_Orbital_Supra_]

just reduce the number of DD's as im tired of killing IJN DD's with my Benson.

i want to kill BB's.....  

[BillydSquid]

The reason everyone is playing them and the reason the Shimakaze is the most played tier 10 by far is because it lacks any real skill to sit outside of detection and drop walls of torpedoes. With a full damage potential of 300k every couple of minutes with auto aim that RNG has no effect on. Sure you can get detected, but you have get out of jail free cards with your smokes. What if you don't have smokes? Well DDs are small enough and fast enough to just dodge shells anyway which is why modules like the engine and rudder get disabled easily but now you can get last stand easily meaning that is no longer a real problem. When i see a destroyer dodging hundreds of shots I just hear the troll song in my head, it's sometimes just pointless to even try to shoot at them beyond a certain range due to dispersion.

 

Higher tier cruisers aren't anywhere near as good at taking them down as lower tier ones due to the slower gun reload, turret turn time and worse manuoverablity. Why should i suicide myself hunting a dd for my team that can just keep me outside of his detection range and spam torpedoes at me and only land 2 and i'm dead from full health? Having to pay the high repair costs of higher tiers prevents this balls to the wall type gameplay as any DD captain can easily just sink you, The repair cost for losing your ship combined with the damage and detection range of the torpedoes forces people to play ultra defensive making the gameplay really dull and tiresome.

 

The hydoacoustics could be a very useful mechanic if it actually had some decent range but 3.48 assured detectability of ships and 2.5 for torps? Come on it's useless. Maybe up it to 10k for ships and 5k for torps or something. It gives cruisers more of an option of what role they want, anti air or anti destroyer meaning more diversity as both are equally important to the team. A cruiser with this would balance it out better meaning high tier cruisers actually having a purpose, other than free citadel buffets for battleships. It would encourage DDs to use ambush tactics and use cover the same way the Russian and American DDs have to do instead of just sending walls of torpedoes in the general direction of the enemy every couple of minutes. Throw enough crap at a wall then some of it is going to stick. When you see that a Kagero has 5 kills and hasn't been detected(i use a mod that shows people last known position they were detected) once in the game you know something isn't right. 

 

Maybe reduce the cost of using higher tiers so more people are playing them so the matchmaking has a better chance of balancing teams? But that's another topic for another day.

 

Right now they are just troll ships, as every player i have seen in a game using a high tier japanese DD is always a toxic player saying things like "cry more" "go play tetris" etc. You see them on the forums, calling everyone a crapplayer because the can't dodge torpedoes and you look at their account and they have only played destroyers. The amount of anti torpedo forum posts for World of Warships says it all really and there is always a toxic horrible destroyer only player in each thread.

 

In the current meta it is either join the destoyers, stop playing or continue to play stagnant boring gameplay. FYI i play cruisers 90% of the time, BBS are too slow in every way for me(I usually put autopilot on at the start of a battle and go and make food or a drink because of the speed) and is not my play style at all. I am better at supporting battleships with AA and taking down cruisers.

 

You critisize the game because you love the game. Now have a wall of text to go with the wall of torpedoes.

 

 

I hate to say it, but increasing sonar wouldn't make a difference. Initially I thought it would too, but it's the same problem with radar. It's use is so limited by range or time that it's so situational to be almost useless as a counter outside of very specific situations. I've used it when I'm moving through a channel, want to make sure a DD isn't hiding behind an island and to finish off crippled DDs that have tried to hide in smoke. (I was very lucky that they were badly damaged, I was the only one left standing, and they had just missed with their torpedoes, I was undertaking a Banzai charge in the hope I got them before they reloaded!)

 

The big problem with radar and sonar is that it leaves the 2 biggest offenders untouched. The Shimi and the Kagero, both of them can launch 15 torpedoes at a range of 20km. 20km, seriously? WTF? No other DD can launch this many with that range, they do the most damage, they're faster at 67 knots, so torpedo acceleration was an amazing screw up giving them 72 knot speed torpedoes with a range of 16km or 12km which still out ranges any other DD apart from the Gearing which has fewer launchers, does less damage and who's torps are slower. It makes the walls of torpedoes a nightmare to dodge. 

 

Throw in that the Shimi has a detection radius of aprox. 5km, so you'll never see the damn thing before it slams a wall of torpedoes into you anyway, means that even if you extended the radar or sonar to 10km a Kagero or Shimi can happily sit at least 2km outside your detection range and happily spam torpedoes into you, which you won't see coming, and you'll never be able to target the DD as he'll simply keep the distance. You see it in every T8+ game if there are Kageros and Shimis playing, walls of torpedoes appearing out of thin air and there's nothing you can do to respond or counter. 

 

I know that some people will say, oh well there's risk for the Shimi or Kagaro too. Sorry but no, if you've got so close to a CA with that 20km range advantage you're a moron. The best captains I've seen know exactly what the detection range is and they'll spot a CA long before it can spot them, sit outside it's detection radius, wait for it to engage or straighten out and launch torpedoes from 7km then break off in case the CA turns into them to slip through the gaps, you might catch a fleeting glimpse of the DD as it runs off, but good luck catching it as you've got 15 torpedoes to deal with, oh and you've now been highlighted too so enemy BBs are now firing at you. And if there's another DD launching from a perpendicular angle? You're [edited] 2 torpedoes in a T9/10 CA you're either sunk or so crippled you're out of action.

 

I know what people will say "well a CV will counter it" CVs are very uncommon, it relies on a halfway competent CV in the game, someone who actually wants to help the team not just throw all his aircraft at a BB because he gets more points that way. It's just blind luck really. 

 

More than anything the Kagero and Shimi need the range of their torpedoes nerfed to the same level as other DDs approximately 10km, plain and simple. This is the most egregious imbalance that is causing walls of torpedoes when combined with higher tier DD concealment. In no other tiers does this happen, it only starts in T8+ that I'd do as a matter of priority before balancing radar around it. As currently, radar is not likely to slow the problem down.  

[BillydSquid]

Ragoutrabbit how about this? You are driving your shima at full speed. Suddenly you see Ibuki 9.7km in front of you, in 10secs you are spotted. Ibuki starts firing at you and after few secs another cruisers starts firing from behind it, and its Zao. At this point you are pretty much dead, driving straight is not option since all the dodging means losing speed. Shooting back just means that escaping is impossible.

 

Say ello to my little friend. Many DDs have been suprised by me. Not to mention enemy BBs when cruiser torps are coming and you cant even see it (must be hax) 

But thats how i kill DDs and still manage to live. Using common sense is allowed, i wont go after DD if its too near enemy BBs. And about that maneuverability, its pretty close to shima.

 

Ha, yeah just gloss over the 4km detection range advantage. If you spotted the Ibuki at 9.7km and he can only spot you inside of 5.9km, less actually with the camo I believe, what were you doing in the time it took for him to cover 4km so he could detect you? Sitting there like a numpty? Or sailing broadside on to a CA to give him the biggest target to train his guns on? Bad DD players get sunk because the tried to rush the enemy team, don't know their detection ranges, or don't have situational awareness. Any DD captain with a brain isn't going to hang around for a T9/10 CA to close 4km with him, if he even knows what direction the DD is, rather turn away and launch torps, if he hasn't already, while the CA captains are going to be obliterated by BB shells as the undetectable DD has now highlighted them to the entire enemy team.

 

No half decent CA captain is going to blindly sail round in circles trying to find a DD which is outside his detection radius, while he's highlighted to the enemy and likely to get hit with shells and torpedoes. Most will try to put as much distance between them and the DD until they are no longer spotted. The only risk to a DD is another DD spotting them, that is the only time a CA will be a threat, unless the DD in question decides to fire it's guns, I don't know why it would if it's a Kagero of Shimi. 

 

Edit: and what are you talking about regarding manoeuvrability? It's rudder shift is 2.4 seconds vs 7.6. Wow the turning circle is almost the same, since when does anyone see DDs doing doughnut turns when they're spotted in front of a CA? The only thing you see is a DD putting as much distance between it and the ships that had the luck to spot it. 

[__Katniss__]

 

m o g a m i

Good joke.  Mogami is good only for 1 thing now. Nothing 

[Babykim]

 

They have created ideal conditions for leveling up especially Japanese destroyers, thats why it slowly turns into the world of destroyers: These conditions are:

 

1. Easy and stressless gameplay, because you don't need to aim guns. Does not apply to the US and Soviet destroyers;

2. Massive buff to XP earned by capping;

3. The largest range of premium ships. I play Fujin, Kamikaze and the current line destroyer every day and got a 17 skill point captain in no time. Such capitans on a Japanese destroyers further increases the fun factor;

4. There are great destroyers on each tier. It is not like finish Cleveland and suck till the end of the line, or finish Myoko and suck till Zao;

5. Most importantly, dynamic and fun gameplay. This applies even more to the US destroyers.

 

[allufewig]

 

 

The big problem with radar and sonar is that it leaves the 2 biggest offenders untouched. The Shimi and the Kagero, both of them can launch 15 torpedoes at a range of 20km.

 

 

Kagero only has 2x4 which makes it much less problematic than Shimakazes 3x5. Or in other words, Shima has a whopping 90% more spammicity. Kagero can be deadly, but it needs some careful prediction to hit. Shima is just so more much likely to hit by just spamming in the targets general direction.  When were talking about world of DDs here, at least I am mostly concerned about the Shima.

 

Shima is easy to play but hard to counter, thats why it is so riddiculously popular.

[ColonelPete]

They have created ideal conditions for leveling up especially Japanese destroyers, thats why it slowly turns into the world of destroyers: These conditions are:

 

1. Easy and stressless gameplay, because you don't need to aim guns. Does not apply to the US and Soviet destroyers;

2. Massive buff to XP earned by capping;

3. The largest range of premium ships. I play Fujin, Kamikaze and the current line destroyer every day and got a 17 skill point captain in no time;

4. There are great destroyers on each tier. It is not like finish Cleveland and suck till the end of the line at tier X;

5. Most importantly, dynamic and fun gameplay. This applies even more to the US destroyers.

As was said before: DD, especially IJN DD are the only class that does not get blown out of the water by BB.

[Babykim]

As was said before: DD, especially IJN DD are the only class that does not get blown out of the water by BB.

 

True, but this appeals more to lesser skilled players, as better players have learned to wiggle.

[ColonelPete]

That appeals to many players, independent of skill.

Otherwise the remaining players in the other classes would be significantly above average.

They are not.

[LilJumpa]

Oh come on guys. Pulling out the "no skill needed" card now?

 

When CVs dominated - takes no skill, bla bla

When BBs parked and only shot their front turrets - takes no skill, bla bla

Now IJN DDs - takes no skill, bla bla

 

What's next? Using the upcoming radar - takes no skill bla, bla?

 

Too many IJN DDs in a game is annoying and something should be done about it. There are many reasonable suggestions on the forums already. But for every reasonable argument there are 20 times as many comments just ranting and using the typical phrases like "no skill", "cancer" and "OP".

In every ship and class there are differences between the results of average joe and the Top 10% which can be related to skill.

[Babykim]

Oh come on guys. Pulling out the "no skill needed" card now?

 

When CVs dominated - takes no skill, bla bla

When BBs parked and only shot their front turrets - takes no skill, bla bla

Now IJN DDs - takes no skill, bla bla

 

What's next? Using the upcoming radar - takes no skill bla, bla?

 

Too many IJN DDs in a game is annoying and something should be done about it. There are many reasonable suggestions on the forums already. But for every reasonable argument there are 20 times as many comments just ranting and using the typical phrases like "no skill", "cancer" and "OP".

In every ship and class there are differences between the results of average joe and the Top 10% which can be related to skill.

 

In my first posting I said nothing about skills. You cannot possibly deny that not needing to shoot makes this already extremely simple game even simpler. Moving while accurately shooting is the one real skill you need to be good in this game. So playing Japanese destroyers is simpler than playing battleships or cruisers. And never in the past did I say that it is too easy to play the carriers. The issue with carriers is a different one. Carriers are a game in a game, which is as stupid as would be the basic Call of Duty game but with some guys playing a pure killstreak bonus game on a tablet. It is not that carriers require no skill, it is a stupid gameplay design. Anyway, if you don't know anything about CoD and killstreaks, don't worry. All that I said is that better players have learned to constantly move their ships (by playing cruisers) about, so that for them not being trashed by battleships is less of an issue.

[LilJumpa]

Shooting and moving are basics. 

Being effective through map/situational awareness, positioning and target selection is skill related

[Babykim]

Shooting and moving are basics. 

Being effective through map/situational awareness, positioning and target selection are skill related

 

Yes, but most fail at shooting. What is the point of situational awareness you cannot hit once in a situation? Anyway, my posting was not a trivial "this and that" is OP. I made five points that I think explain the popularity of Japanese destroyers. Only one of them (Point 1) was skill related. If you have a better explanation, I will gladly hear out yours.

[N00b32]

They have created ideal conditions for leveling up especially Japanese destroyers, thats why it slowly turns into the world of destroyers: These conditions are:

 

1. Easy and stressless gameplay, because you don't need to aim guns. Does not apply to the US and Soviet destroyers;

2. Massive buff to XP earned by capping;

3. The largest range of premium ships. I play Fujin, Kamikaze and the current line destroyer every day and got a 17 skill point captain in no time. Such capitans on a Japanese destroyers further increases the fun factor;

4. There are great destroyers on each tier. It is not like finish Cleveland and suck till the end of the line, or finish Myoko and suck till Zao;

5. Most importantly, dynamic and fun gameplay. This applies even more to the US destroyers.

 

For me the reasons to choose IJN back in the days were more:

 

1. speed to cap and decap

2. don't care

3. nope, has nothing to do with that for me

4. nope, that is wrong. Mutsuki and Hatsuharu were not exactly the shining beacons some people think they are

5. that is the most important. In the end the decicion is between US and IJN DDs. And stealth fire at mid tier is a IJN thing.

(6.) when I made the decicsion, draws were still a thing

 

A lot of people may have other reasons to play that line. I made my decicion at the start of open beta. I played when Minekaze still had 10 km torps. i paused a few month aafter the great carrier nerf and went back to destroyers. It was the wargaming way of telling people what to play and not to play. You have to accept this. So

 

(7.) wargaming told me carriers are evil and dds not so much. I have more fun with carriers, but hey, you have to accept the overlord.

[Babykim]

 

For me the reasons to choose IJN back in the days were more:

 

1. speed to cap and decap

Ok but hard to generalize since "back in those days" capping was less profitable. Most DD rushed to kill the carriers.

2. don't care

1 and 2 are in contradiction. No?

3. nope, has nothing to do with that for me

You don't like playing the Kamikaze? OK

4. nope, that is wrong. Mutsuki and Hatsuharu were not exactly the shining beacons some people think they are

I found both OK, the Hatsuharu actually quite good. But I played them with a 5th perk cap already after sealclubbing in Umikaze to get him there

5. that is the most important. In the end the decicion is between US and IJN DDs. And stealth fire at mid tier is a IJN thing.

(6.) when I made the decicsion, draws were still a thing

 

A lot of people may have other reasons to play that line. I made my decicion at the start of open beta. I played when Minekaze still had 10 km torps.

 

[Zathras_Grimm]

 

Yes, but most fail at shooting. What is the point of situational awareness you cannot hit once in a situation? Anyway, my posting was not a trivial "this and that" is OP. I made five points that I think explain the popularity of Japanese destroyers. Only one of them (Point 1) was skill related. If you have a better explanation, I will gladly hear out yours.

1. Just because the guns are the worst of any nation it does not mean they are not fired. Just means when you are spotted by any other nation DD you have to be better (or more skillful) to survive. This includes being spotted by other means and taking incoming fire from everywhere.

2. Yes buff to XP to balance the usual high amounts BBs get as a matter of course.

3. So no one at Tier X has high level captains but DD players? Wow!

4. Great destroyers on each tier? Compared to what, other DDs? I believe the tiers VI -IX are worse than the Minekaze.

5. Funny how a person labels the game boring if it doesn't suit their style of play. Many DD players probably think having to change direction to stay undetected or avoid incoming is boring to. Maybe the game is just boring for some when they have to 'wiggle' as you say? 

 

BTW what skill is there to captain a BB, wiggle and shoot? No, I wouldn't be so naive to believe that.

[N00b32]

@Babykim: Kamikaze is ok. But that has nothing to do with the decision. Don't twist around words. It was about reasons why I play the line and kamikaze has nothing to do with it. Nada. Zero. Kamikaze came along the way and I take it, but the decision has nothing to do with prem ships. I also have Albany and Emden. That does not mean I don't like them (ok, they are mediocre) just because my cruiser experience was better in closed beta and I never reached high tier cruisers again. (for several reasons)

[Babykim]

[Babykim]

@Babykim: Kamikaze is ok. But that has nothing to do with the decision. Don't twist around words. It was about reasons why I play the line and kamikaze has nothing to do with it. Nada. Zero. Kamikaze came along the way and I take it, but the decision has nothing to do with prem ships. I also have Albany and Emden. That does not mean I don't like them (ok, they are mediocre) just because my cruiser experience was better in closed beta and I never reached high tier cruisers again. (for several reasons)

 

I thought we are talking about the current state of affairs, not about how it was "back in those times".