Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
wongman66

Four feathers - dealing with cowards

75 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Beta Tester
191 posts

After bienig in a match with crysantos tonight and watching him (my Faragut got pwned early on vs 2 Clevelands) trying a valiant rearguard action vs 6 in his Cleveland, the cowardly BBs on our team just simply ran along with the other cruisers.

It seems that WoWs "meta" for BBs is to run like cowards, WoT equivalent is heavies camping bushes next to arty....

 

My solution, in addition to karma points we should have the ability to give a out a "white" feather- symbol of cowardice in the face of enemy action. If you get multiple feathers in same battle it only the 1st is counted. Rest oft he team should decide who "uses" up their feather.

 

Get 4 feathers and show ship on map in a colour (not pink or yellow) - pity yellow already used for denoting teammates.

 

The only way to get it reversed is to get karma points for playing well and only 1 per battle is taken into acocunt even if getting 2/3 from others. You want to get the offender to consistently get into battle.

 

By highlighting a "coward" it gives rest of team an indication not to rely on said person so you can adapt as necessary.

 

Thoughts please - just a theorectical exercise and would need more refining to be seriously considered by WG.

 

 

 

 

  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Alpha Tester
17,384 posts
5,400 battles

Anyone in top 3 of team should get + karma anyway for 'plays well' instead of depending on people not being 'salty' losers :hiding:

 

On the cowardice in battle, it's sunday, it was way worse than on normal play days. Same as with people just herp-a-derp around the map ( like a Farragut 'escorting' a New Mexico in a domination mode map where we had two DD's in total, or a CV constantly going for <1k hp CA's which my Gremmy is already taking care off when there are full HP BB's 5 km's from them ).

 

If you'd ask me, this whole feather thing is unneeded, they just need to show Karma in game ( through markings on a hull or something, like gunmarks in WoT? ), and stop the abuse of the system. And as I said, auto add karma for 'plays well' for people who actually play well instead of having it depend on other players.

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
349 posts
2,909 battles

Yes! Let's add more opportunities for abuse of the system!

 

I couldn't be more excited about this prospect!

 

I hope you get all the love you deserve from the developers!

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BTS]
Players
1,064 posts
4,867 battles

I think most of us want the karma dead, I doubt you're going to get much support for another tool open to abuse. Cowards are already punished by the fact that if they run they deal less damage and they get less credits and xp. What we may need are game mechanics encouraging active play, like a progressive increase of BB main guns' loading time going with the firing distance (as in reality, those guns had quicker ROF when firing at low elevations).

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
7,299 posts
9,543 battles

Anyone in top 3 of team should get + karma anyway for 'plays well' instead of depending on people not being 'salty' losers :hiding:

 

On the cowardice in battle, it's sunday, it was way worse than on normal play days. Same as with people just herp-a-derp around the map ( like a Farragut 'escorting' a New Mexico in a domination mode map where we had two DD's in total, or a CV constantly going for <1k hp CA's which my Gremmy is already taking care off when there are full HP BB's 5 km's from them ).

 

If you'd ask me, this whole feather thing is unneeded, they just need to show Karma in game ( through markings on a hull or something, like gunmarks in WoT? ), and stop the abuse of the system. And as I said, auto add karma for 'plays well' for people who actually play well instead of having it depend on other players.

 

Meh, the whole Karma system is useless and easily exploitable anyway.

 

Today I had a game on Two Brothers and except for our three man division (New York, Kongou and a Gremy) everyone else lemming trained up the other side, leaving us three to fight a Nagato, a Fusou, a Cleveland and two Hatsuharus by ourselves. Sometime later a Mutsuki joined and tried to help but there was nothing to be done against the enemy but to try and stall them a little ... everyone died trying.

 

And then one of the lemming train passengers of our team starts whining about our team's DDs not doing their job. I responded with what are our DDs supposed to do if everyone lemming trains to the other side of the map, including all the cruisers which would've been helpful against the enemy DDs which were having free reign.

Guy then raged some more, blah blah, salt & pepper, we lost and lo and behold, a point karma less. Because of what I can only presume was for having had the AUDACITY to talk back (in a normal tone mind you) to some armchair admiral who can't see past his own firing range.

 

When idiots like that can simply report players on their whims, any metric tied to that value is meaningless. Which I am thankful is mirrored by the fact that karma does nothing but being a number that only you and WG can see.

 

 

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CAIN]
Players
2,732 posts
10,858 battles

While i agree with the notion, i doubt WG would ever implement something like this.

First of all, you don't want to flag pontetial customers as chicken ( pussies seems to be too harsh to be used ^^ ).

Secondly, people would abuse this and flag people for any reason the deem fit, especially when sailing in Divisions.

 

It happened to me more then once, that Division members neg repd me via the karma system. You step one on the toe, you got to deal with the entire division.

 

Also, if such a system would be implemeted, 85% of all BB players would be part of the "Chicken Clan". :P

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Alpha Tester
17,384 posts
5,400 battles

 

Meh, the whole Karma system is useless and easily exploitable anyway.

 

Today I had a game on Two Brothers and except for our three man division (New York, Kongou and a Gremy) everyone else lemming trained up the other side, leaving us three to fight a Nagato, a Fusou, a Cleveland and two Hatsuharus by ourselves. Sometime later a Mutsuki joined and tried to help but there was nothing to be done against the enemy but to try and stall them a little ... everyone died trying.

 

And then one of the lemming train passengers of our team starts whining about our team's DDs not doing their job. I responded with what are our DDs supposed to do if everyone lemming trains to the other side of the map, including all the cruisers which would've been helpful against the enemy DDs which were having free reign.

Guy then raged some more, blah blah, salt & pepper, we lost and lo and behold, a point karma less. Because of what I can only presume was for having had the AUDACITY to talk back (in a normal tone mind you) to some armchair admiral who can't see past his own firing range.

 

When idiots like that can simply report players on their whims, any metric tied to that value is meaningless. Which I am thankful is mirrored by the fact that karma does nothing but being a number that only you and WG can see.

 

 

 

Indeed, but it's more common than not that in those situations I still end in top 3 of the team so I the negative karma would be negated by the automatically added positive one. Maybe even don't allow 'play's poorly' karma for people in the top 3, and adding manual checks for 'chat abuse' and 'bot' so people who try to abuse that option are sanctioned. 

 

It was said in the Q&A that the developers do have plans with the Karma system, let's hope they see the problems and are listening to the feedback regarding the system as is. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
7,299 posts
9,543 battles

 

Indeed, but it's more common than not that in those situations I still end in top 3 of the team so I the negative karma would be negated by the automatically added positive one. Maybe even don't allow 'play's poorly' karma for people in the top 3, and adding manual checks for 'chat abuse' and 'bot' so people who try to abuse that option are sanctioned. 

 

It was said in the Q&A that the developers do have plans with the Karma system, let's hope they see the problems and are listening to the feedback regarding the system as is. 

 

Yes, let's hope.

 

Though personally I don't see karma working out well unless WG intends to field an army's worth of people to sift through reports to weed out report-griefing/karma-boosting. Plus the problem is that the gain or loss of karma is entirely dependant on others. You can do good or bad but it will amount to nothing until someone decides to either compliment or report you, for whichever reasons they might have.

 

If anything, if there are to be real ingame effects to be tied to the value, it should be automated completely. Say you gain karma by doing statistically well (can even be divided into the different ship classes: damage done, damage taken, flags captured, ships spotted, etc. pp.) and only investigated reports that have found the player guilty would lose to WG deducting points from a player's account.

But with completely random people being responsible to administer karma as they see fit, I don't see this system having any future (that doesn't run itself into a toxic cesspool of griefing and exploitation).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
1,102 posts
2,442 battles

No karma system change or whatever will change the players behaviour, if they consider it the best way to play the game. Another addition for abusing the karma system won´t help, or add to the cause of improving the teamplay/gameplay experience. To be honest, i´d completly disagree with any system which grants "raging suiciders/raging wannabe admirals" the ability to diffarm other players at will, just because they consider them playing wrong.

 

Instead, Wargaming should seriously rework their balance system and mechanics, probably completly throw the "rock,paper,scissors" system over board and focus on a more teamorientated balance. BBs and CAs are by far to depending on team support, and especially for BBs, there is no compensating reward for leading a charge or going into a brawl. As long as "brawling" for a BB means "moving into enemy firing and torpedo range, risking the ship and the participation in the match, just for the reward of having a chance of 20%, to hit the enemy, instead of 12%", BB players won´t change. Grant them a much better secondary armament, boosted in overall efficiency, working as a real support for damage output and not just a third class emergency defense system at shortest range, and BB players will be motivated to move in, because even if they die, they get the chance to achieve something, while they lead the push. Once BBs become an equal area-denial thread, as equally tiered ships with torpedo launchers, you will see a change.

By now, with all those torps and nothing to counter them, but staying out of harms range, you will continue to see more snipers than brawlers...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
14,695 posts
10,879 battles

Anyone in top 3 of team should get + karma anyway for 'plays well' instead of depending on people not being 'salty' losers :hiding:

 

Really?

I have seen battles were the second ranked did not have have half the score of the first ranked and rank 2-12 had a score of 150 to 500. Do you want to reward that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,186 posts
4,658 battles

I have yet to give any player in this game positive karma. It's not because I don't think they deserve it, it's just because I forget I can. When I want to commend someone, I tell them in chat. I don't have confidence in the system to have any impact. It feels too easy to abuse and without any real substance or consequence.

 

WG aren't good at showing people how the game works. People are very much left to themselves to figure things out. That's why relatively obscure systems like karma are guaranteed to have little effect. To me it feels more like an alibi for WG to say "hey, we're doing something". I think the karma system is there simply to divert attention from the fact that their report system is lacking.

 

I do however give people negative karma. Not as a result of wanting to influence a pointless statistic, but as a result of frustration over afk'ers or simply people who have zero idea what they're doing. And, yes - I do tell them what they are doing wrong in chat as well, which probably results in a lot of negative karma headed back my way.

 

I really, really hope that WG doesn't decide to expand any more on the karma system. It doesn't work and will probably never work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TRAV]
[TRAV]
Players
2,505 posts

How about simply not trying to tell others how to play the game?

 

No matter how competetive you want to be, not everyone is playing with the same mindset, and forcing your expectations of how the game should be played on others is simply selfish.

 

If someone wants to play his BB as a long range sniper, let him. At least he is not dying early.

If someone want to torp low hitpoint targets, let him. He might prevent that target from firing another salvo or two.

 

I seriously had an opposing CV player who told me, I am playing the game wrong because I had an air supperiority setting on my Ryoju and killed his bombers. Instead of facing a tough air battle or looking for weaknesses in my fighter defense screen, he chose to torp himself to avoid me. There is no way to play the game wrong, as long as you play. The game gives you options and it is up to each single player how he want s to use them.

 

If you want to be competetive and meet like minded players play ranked and team battles. Random is just random and you shouldn't expect anything else.

Edited by Egoleter
  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,186 posts
4,658 battles

How about simply not trying to tell others how to play the game?

 

Not an option for me, and probably the majority of players who talk in chat. You could of course try to spread the gospel of non-involvement by uh... I guess you can't :teethhappy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
6,753 posts
7,907 battles

After bienig in a match with crysantos tonight and watching him (my Faragut got pwned early on vs 2 Clevelands) trying a valiant rearguard action vs 6 in his Cleveland, the cowardly BBs on our team just simply ran along with the other cruisers.

It seems that WoWs "meta" for BBs is to run like cowards, WoT equivalent is heavies camping bushes next to arty....

 

My solution, in addition to karma points we should have the ability to give a out a "white" feather- symbol of cowardice in the face of enemy action. If you get multiple feathers in same battle it only the 1st is counted. Rest oft he team should decide who "uses" up their feather.

 

Get 4 feathers and show ship on map in a colour (not pink or yellow) - pity yellow already used for denoting teammates.

 

The only way to get it reversed is to get karma points for playing well and only 1 per battle is taken into acocunt even if getting 2/3 from others. You want to get the offender to consistently get into battle.

 

By highlighting a "coward" it gives rest of team an indication not to rely on said person so you can adapt as necessary.

 

Thoughts please - just a theorectical exercise and would need more refining to be seriously considered by WG.

 

 

 

 

 

Also funny when the tunnelvision Bobs die early because they just keep going into the thickest enemy crossfire, not realizing that our base is under heavy attack too, and then they call me a coward for "camping with my Cleveland"....

 

I protected the base against 3 enemy DDs, killed them all  + 2 more enemies....but I'm a "coward camper"....yea - sure! ;)

 

 

Edited by Trigger_Happy_Dad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Alpha Tester
17,384 posts
5,400 battles

 

Really?

I have seen battles were the second ranked did not have have half the score of the first ranked and rank 2-12 had a score of 150 to 500. Do you want to reward that?

 

You can ad a cutoff of 1000 xp, now you mention there are times where no one should be eligible :great: 

 

ps. I am not talking about ranked, I don't like that mode with random bobs, rather play team battles with people you can choose. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
449 posts
3,053 battles

This idea of Bb being cowards works both ways 

 

I had a game the other day in warspite on two brothers, started the game sailed around to th right heading for the cap. Battled with a dd two cruisers and a couple battleships with fellow ships in tow. 

 

After sinking 2 or 3 of them including secondary fire alone on the dd while I was firing at cruises. Myself and a fellow cruiser notices two enemy cruisers had bolted down the channel and where about to cap. We swung around and sailed back, sunk them , and then began resailing back towards the enemy side of the map. 

 

It it was at this point that some genius on our team. Who had died first obviously and clearly hadn't looked at the screen the past 15 mins screamed all over chat that I was a camping coward and should be banned. He's also felt the need to message me after the battle with abuse. 

 

Id sunk 5 ships and sailed up and down the map as needed twice , caped 3 times but no as he looked back from raging on the forums he saw me steaming back from defending our cap and here you go I'm a coward.

 

 

 

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[T_D_G]
Players
380 posts
8,305 battles

I was in that game in the enemy team with my arp myoko. What your team did poorly was seeing us pushing through A while Crysantos was decapping us and putting ppl on fire while your BBs were dividing and bordering the caps going to our starting position of the map. Was a singular way of playing by them. I dont like the idea of cowardice just because ppl sees by themselves that when you do that you get punished by loosing credits (which is the worst) ans being stomped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Quality Poster
4,345 posts
14,949 battles

How about simply not trying to tell others how to play the game?

 

 

 

 

how about not playing a online game that relies on team play if you don't want to play as a team.   I division up with  wongman66  regularly and we had a similar indecent Saturday night. 2 BB cruising away from the  main fight  firing on isolated enemy CAs on the other flank! Mean while myself in a CA  2DD's and another BB were fighting a rear guard action against 8 enemy ships. we almost won. If we had fire support from those 2 BB we would have won easy

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,979 posts
2,159 battles

Chat abuse from people who take it upon themselves to decide how others should play the game is bad enough, but at least it can be ignored. Creating a system that would facilitate and reward this sort of behaviour would be downright bad for everyone except the in-game bullies. I agree with what Egoleter said in post 12 above.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Weekend Tester
430 posts

I think that the Karma system should focus on making players feel rewarded, not punished. A player that plays badly won't probably improve just because he's called out on being a bad player. I can already picture a pity yellow battleship starting a game and reading something like "oh great, we've got X coward battleships, gg" in chat. Worst case scenario, they might quit the game for good.

 

It might be interesting to add a "Karma" tab in the profile (since it wouldn't work in the detailed report tab at the end of the match given the way the Karma system currently works) and do something like the account progression. You get Karma for playing well or being useful and the game rewards you with signal flags, credits etcetera. It won't stop people from reporting you for no reason, but in the long run good players would definitely be rewarded imho.

 

 

Edited by Live85

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
320 posts
6,301 battles

So every time you get a potato team. and some epeen yolo player is sitting there blaming YOU, there should be a system for him to reinforce his failed IQ? No thanks. Wont go on, my thoughts have been well covered in previous posts.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[ST-EU]
Supertester
3,402 posts
18,082 battles

Chat abuse from people who take it upon themselves to decide how others should play the game is bad enough, but at least it can be ignored. Creating a system that would facilitate and reward this sort of behaviour would be downright bad for everyone except the in-game bullies. I agree with what Egoleter said in post 12 above.

 

Somebody giving good structured tactical advice (like Trigger happy Dad) are a bonus to the game and not giving chat abuse. If you want to play a team game act like a team player and not a solo warrior, you would be appreciated a lot more (also you may learn good tactics). I prefer players offering advice, it shows they ARE trying to play as a team. But back to the OP, not sure about your suggestion as like the karma/report system, it gets abused by the wrong people for the wrong reasons.
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Beta Tester
1,194 posts
11,916 battles

You call it cowardice, I call it a strategic retreat. And because I am a 20kt battleship I need to retreat way earlier than the rest of the team. :trollface:

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×