Start restricting numbers of Destroyers in Games

[MudMonkey]

We have this discussion for quite a while now. And what we have found out so far is, that we need the CVs back into the game. Because they did a LOT of spotting.

 

I also think that one other problem is the concealment of DDs. I ask myself now for quite a while why do IJN DDs have such a good camo rating, while RU DDs have the worst. It strikes me as quite odd that it is not the other way round.

Wouldn't it be better to have worse camo rating on high tier IJN DDs and a better one on the RU gunboats? This way it would be way more easy to counter the jap DDs while the gunboats still will be easy to spot because of their intesive gun usage. All this without making them useless ofc.

 

Any thoughts about this?

[Spithas]

 

Firstly, and most importantly, it seriously complicates MM, assuming 3 DD per team and also 3 BB:

1. you need to fit 40% of the players into 25% of the game;
2. assuming 5-6 CA per match you need to find 40-50% of the game from 25% of the players;
3. you need to do the above without introducing unacceptable delays in MM;

as far as I can see you can only really do the above by making DD top tier in every game and by dragging in lots of lower tier CA to make up the numbers.

 

 

The problem with the above is that it is an absolute paradise for BB (lots of CA to shoot at, anything that can hurt them largely absent) and an absolute nightmare for CA who'll be nothing more than harmless little bugs for their BB overlords to stomp on.

 

 

The logical consequence of the above is that fewer and fewer people will play CA and you end up in a vicious spiral where the declining number of CA players means that more and more lower tier CA players are drawn into higher tier matches making CA play even more unpleasant until MM breaks down entirely.

 

 

 

 

The second reason why restricting DD numbers is wrong is they're a symptom of the problem not the problem itself.  There are obviously serious balance issues in the game, limiting DD does nothing to address this, so rather than complaining about the numbers of DD why not complain about the fact that BB are massively OP against CA, which seems to be where the most fundamental problem is.

 

 

Again the guy with 4 matches in Tier 9....

 

Why 3 BBs? Who said anything about capping BBs? BB numbers and CA numbers are mostly irrelevant for the gameplay as long as both classes are present in the match.  One team having more BBs or more CAs or both teams having more CAs or BBs doesn't ruin the game like a match with 8+ DDs between the teams.

 

There is nothing complicated for the MM. It's been done in World of Tanks and it works just fine.

 

If you think that 3 DDs in Top tier is not enough to hurt BBs then think again. Also cruisers are a very strong threat to BBs in those tiers.  I am a CA player mostly and i laugh at your completely false "logical" deduction that capping the number of DDs per battle will lead to less CAs. 

 

The problem is "More than 6 DDs in 1 match leads to bad games for all involved". This is not a symptom this is the problem itself. You have almost 0 experience in tiers 9 and 10 where this is rampant so please stop discussing about this subject.

 

And i will repeat it once again, probably in vain, BBs are not massively OP against CAs specially at the TOP tiers. The rise of DDs has nothing to do with the CA - BB relationship. It has everything to do with it being a cheap and easy class to play in (hard to master but easy to play the stealth torping ones specifically).

 

 

[Capra76]

We have this discussion for quite a while now. And what we have found out so far is, that we need the CVs back into the game. Because they did a LOT of spotting.

 

I also think that one other problem is the concealment of DDs. I ask myself now for quite a while why do IJN DDs have such a good camo rating, while RU DDs have the worst. It strikes me as quite odd that it is not the other way round.

Wouldn't it be better to have worse camo rating on high tier IJN DDs and a better one on the RU gunboats? This way it would be way more easy to counter the jap DDs while the gunboats still will be easy to spot because of their intesive gun usage. All this without making them useless ofc.

 

Any thoughts about this?

 

Agree with the point about IJN having too good camo, although RU aren't really designed to be DD hunters and you can't make them any more stealthy without making them into dangerously OP invisible gunboats.

 

The biggest problem is USN DD at T6/7 have RU detection levels when their job is to hunt DD, which can lead to a perverse situation where IJN are hunting USN by exploiting their detection mechanics.

[Capra76]

 

Again the guy with 4 matches in Tier 9....

 

Why 3 BBs? Who said anything about capping BBs? BB numbers and CA numbers are mostly irrelevant for the gameplay as long as both classes are present in the match.  One team having more BBs or more CAs or both teams having more CAs or BBs doesn't ruin the game like a match with 8+ DDs between the teams.

 

There is nothing complicated for the MM. It's been done in World of Tanks and it works just fine.

 

If you think that 3 DDs in Top tier is not enough to hurt BBs then think again. Also cruisers are a very strong threat to BBs in those tiers.  I am a CA player mostly and i laugh at your completely false "logical" deduction that capping the number of DDs per battle will lead to less CAs. 

 

The problem is "More than 6 DDs in 1 match leads to bad games for all involved". This is not a symptom this is the problem itself. You have almost 0 experience in tiers 9 and 10 where this is rampant so please stop discussing about this subject.

 

And i will repeat it once again, probably in vain, BBs are not massively OP against CAs specially at the TOP tiers. The rise of DDs has nothing to do with the CA - BB relationship. It has everything to do with it being a cheap and easy class to play in (hard to master but easy to play the stealth torping ones specifically).

 

 

 

Again the arrogant bully who responds to reasoned argument with "shut up I'm better than you"

[Spithas]

 

Again the arrogant bully who responds to reasoned argument with "shut up I'm better than you"

 

So my whole post answering point by point to each of your assumptions is just a "shut up i'm better than you" ? Guess it suits you to label it as such when you don't have any counter argument.

 

You are more than welcome to go check my stats on Tier 9 - 10 cruisers to verify my arguments. I can also give you the names of any number of players who do well in CAs.

 

If i didn't care about balance i would leave incompetent, inexperienced, delusional people like you keep on rambling how BBs are totally OP vs CA until CAs get buffed and i could benefit.

 

The funny thing is that even though you have absolutely 0 experience in the tiers you keep on arguing against people who are vastly more experience than you. It's like arguing with your dentist about the condition of your teeth.

[Spellfire40]

And how do you restric them? The MM make teams with what is there in the level range. So if DDS are capped you sit longer in the cue? What if not enogh CA are there? You get matches with 3 DD 2 CA and the rest BBs? Next restrict BBS then? Better think something fully throgh or we endlich up with  T10 matches like in the middle of the nicht with 5 to 7 ships per side 

[Spithas]

And how do you restric them? The MM make teams with what is there in the level range. So if DDS are capped you sit longer in the cue? What if not enogh CA are there? You get matches with 3 DD 2 CA and the rest BBs? Next restrict BBS then? Better think something fully throgh or we endlich up with  T10 matches like in the middle of the nicht with 5 to 7 ships per side 

 

Having more CAs or BBs doesn't have the same effect on gameplay that DD infestation has. Infact we want more Cruisers or BBs or both in order to have better games than "dodge the torpedo wall" that you get 80% of the time in Tier 9 and 10.

 

Despite what some would have you believe there are plenty of cruisers playing. 

 

[Spellfire40]

Having significantly more BBS than CA on regular Basis will sure as hell decrease the number of CA Player really fast. Games with 3 DDs and the rest BBs are as wrong.

[gR3iF]

@spithas just give up man....

 

Restricting one class isnt helping at all. Balanced is the thing that needs to done...

Shima can sit back and spam torps (hitrate then below 10%) but it can be done and is pretty effective because a vast of players is scared when a shima is engaging.

 

Or why dont you say that DDs in lower tiers aren't that much of a problem?

 

[MudMonkey]

 

Agree with the point about IJN having too good camo, although RU aren't really designed to be DD hunters and you can't make them any more stealthy without making them into dangerously OP invisible gunboats.

 

The biggest problem is USN DD at T6/7 have RU detection levels when their job is to hunt DD, which can lead to a perverse situation where IJN are hunting USN by exploiting their detection mechanics.

 

I don't want the RU DDs to be invisible snipers. I just think that there is an inbalance within the DD lines when looking at camo. At the moment IJN DD can spot RU and also US DDs from quite a distance. Also do they have quite good guns if you look at higher tiers.

 

I just thought that this might be the easiest way to put the IJN DDs into more danger. Now with the upcoming introduction of Radar and probably buff of acoustics those IJN DDs will just stay a little bit further away. It is not really a problem for them as it is for the gunboats. Again, an adjustment in camo might be a solution.

[Capra76]

 

I don't want the RU DDs to be invisible snipers. I just think that there is an inbalance within the DD lines when looking at camo. At the moment IJN DD can spot RU and also US DDs from quite a distance. Also do they have quite good guns if you look at higher tiers.

 

I just thought that this might be the easiest way to put the IJN DDs into more danger. Now with the upcoming introduction of Radar and probably buff of acoustics those IJN DDs will just stay a little bit further away. It is not really a problem for them as it is for the gunboats. Again, an adjustment in camo might be a solution.

 

 

The RU line is certainly very strange at the moment, they get a cruiser level gunfire detection penalty thanks to the Gnevny's stealth and long range guns but the later tiers get enormous base detection ranges anyway without any increase in gun range, I think the best we can say is they're a work in progress.

[ghostbuster_]

And thats a reason to start the same topic over and over and over and over.

There is a search option use existing threats so you dont need to be told that the horible OP Shima isnt near Top in Damage done or WR.

 

if people starts the same thread over and over maybe its time to start thinking why they re doing this.

[ghostbuster_]

 

Firstly, and most importantly, it seriously complicates MM, assuming 3 DD per team and also 3 BB:

1. you need to fit 40% of the players into 25% of the game;
2. assuming 5-6 CA per match you need to find 40-50% of the game from 25% of the players;
3. you need to do the above without introducing unacceptable delays in MM;

as far as I can see you can only really do the above by making DD top tier in every game and by dragging in lots of lower tier CA to make up the numbers.

 

stop saying the same thing over and over. It is the situation atm. After a limit to DD number there will be definitely more people playing other classes.

[Capra76]

stop saying the same thing over and over. It is the situation atm. After a limit to DD number there will be definitely more people playing other classes.

 

 

If you stop saying "limit DD numbers" over and over again I won't need to keep pointing out the obvious problem.

 

 

And why do you think fewer people will want to play DD when the biggest threat to them (other DD) is severely curtailed?

[ghostbuster_]

 

 

If you stop saying "limit DD numbers" over and over again I won't need to keep pointing out the obvious problem.

 

 

And why do you think fewer people will want to play DD when the biggest threat to them (other DD) is severely curtailed?

 

you re stating the current situation. this will change. thats why there is no point you to say that crap.

 

Because there are too many people who dont play their tier X CAs or BBs atm. Some of them have already mentioned that on forum. If there were max 3 DDs per team, people would start to play their tier X ships.

[Capra76]

 

you re stating the current situation. this will change. thats why there is no point you to say that crap.

 

Because there are too many people who dont play their tier X CAs or BBs atm. Some of them have already mentioned that on forum. If there were max 3 DDs per team, people would start to play their tier X ships.

 

 

That is an interesting but unproven theory worthy of further discussion, lets look at some of the numbers.

 

 

For the week ended 5 March there were a total of 47,000 T10 games, to balance a 3 DD cap you would need an additional 39,000 non-DD games to be played, i.e. you'd need an extra 83% of T10 games played.  For the same period there were 95,000 T9 games played and to balance you would need an additional 56,000 games which means you'd need an extra 59% of T9 games, all them CA/BB only.

 

 

That strikes me as rather optimistic, can you provide any evidence that such an increase is achievable?

 

 

More fundamentally a cap doesn't address the balance issues in the game.  If DD are OP then perversely a cap encourages more DD players into the game (more targets, less risk), if the balance is wrong between BB/CA then the risk is that you'll end up with games that have 8 BB on each side, which is surely no better than the current situation.

 

 

No-one denies that there is a problem, but sticking an arbitrary cap on one particular class simply transfers the problem elsewhere, instead of a sticking plaster solution why not propose a solution that deals with the problem rather than the symptom?

[ghostbuster_]

 

 

That is an interesting but unproven theory worthy of further discussion, lets look at some of the numbers.

 

 

For the week ended 5 March there were a total of 47,000 T10 games, to balance a 3 DD cap you would need an additional 39,000 non-DD games to be played, i.e. you'd need an extra 83% of T10 games played.  For the same period there were 95,000 T9 games played and to balance you would need an additional 56,000 games which means you'd need an extra 59% of T9 games, all them CA/BB only.

 

 

That strikes me as rather optimistic, can you provide any evidence that such an increase is achievable?

 

 

More fundamentally a cap doesn't address the balance issues in the game.  If DD are OP then perversely a cap encourages more DD players into the game (more targets, less risk), if the balance is wrong between BB/CA then the risk is that you'll end up with games that have 8 BB on each side, which is surely no better than the current situation.

 

 

No-one denies that there is a problem, but sticking an arbitrary cap on one particular class simply transfers the problem elsewhere, instead of a sticking plaster solution why not propose a solution that deals with the problem rather than the symptom?

 

Nobody is claiming that DDs are OP. There too many DDs and thats it. what is your source? do you consider that a part of the DD players have also other tier X which they dont want to play in a situation like this. so you dont really need extra people for extra battles. before the DD buffs there were always many people who were waiting for battle with BBs and CAs. Now all we can see is waiting DDs. where did those guys go? did they leave the game or did they just grind a dd?  I am not a statistic maniac so i dont search for statistics like crazy. i only check some players stats, thats it. I play that game nearly everyday and i only tell what i saw. and from the people i know, there are lots of players who are waiting for a better MM to sail their BBs and CAs.

 

Other solutions could be some nerfs or buffs but that makes the game always worse. You can understand it from the current situation. Buff the torps buff the torps and here we are World of DDs. Nerf them again and again welcome the lack of DDs. besides it wouldnt be dramatic as you say. keep the tier X DDs away from tier 8 games. allow them to join in tier 9-10 battles only. waiting time for DDs would increase and people who dont want to wait that long can play an other ship.  problem solved.

[Spellfire40]

 

if people starts the same thread over and over maybe its time to start thinking why they re doing this.

 

And does anybody change their views, does the statistics change does who shouts the loudest is allways right. Make another 200 posts saying the same things again geting the same answers and conflicting views changes nothing but geting topics that might be interesting out of the new parts before they get atention. They should get one DD topic sticky and merge all others to it. Much like 1 "why is there isnt the RN in" topic so the forum dont get flooded by senseless multi posts.

[Capra76]

 

Nobody is claiming that DDs are OP. There too many DDs and thats it. what is your source? do you consider that a part of the DD players have also other tier X which they dont want to play in a situation like this. so you dont really need extra people for extra battles. before the DD buffs there were always many people who were waiting for battle with BBs and CAs. Now all we can see is waiting DDs. where did those guys go? did they leave the game or did they just grind a dd?  I am not a statistic maniac so i dont search for statistics like crazy. i only check some players stats, thats it. I play that game nearly everyday and i only tell what i saw. and from the people i know, there are lots of players who are waiting for a better MM to sail their BBs and CAs.

 

Other solutions could be some nerfs or buffs but that makes the game always worse. You can understand it from the current situation. Buff the torps buff the torps and here we are World of DDs. Nerf them again and again welcome the lack of DDs. besides it wouldnt be dramatic as you say. keep the tier X DDs away from tier 8 games. allow them to join in tier 9-10 battles only. waiting time for DDs would increase and people who dont want to wait that long can play an other ship.  problem solved.

 

So in the end your big idea is "make DD almost impossible to play by introducing an interminably long waits for games", does that really sound fair and do you think WG would go for it?

[ghostbuster_]

 

And does anybody change their views, does the statistics change does who shouts the loudest is allways right. Make another 200 posts saying the same things again geting the same answers and conflicting views changes nothing but geting topics that might be interesting out of the new parts before they get atention. They should get one DD topic sticky and merge all others to it. Much like 1 "why is there isnt the RN in" topic so the forum dont get flooded by senseless multi posts.

 

with writing something on the forum you can change nothing in the game. and everbody knows that. but there is huge problem which affects many people. everyone want to define his/her unrest about the problem. so its normal to have that many threads.

[ghostbuster_]

 

So in the end your big idea is "make DD almost impossible to play by introducing an interminably long waits for games", does that really sound fair and do you think WG would go for it?

 

no its not impossible. There are still tier X games and in each battle 6 DDs can participate. The others have to wait. CVs have really long waiting time now. why shouldnt DDs have long waiting time?

[Spellfire40]

 

with writing something on the forum you can change nothing in the game. and everbody knows that. but there is huge problem which affects many people. everyone want to define his/her unrest about the problem. so its normal to have that many threads.

 

And if you read the Infos from RU topic you notice that their Idia for a fix is Radar plus some other non said further down the line if that dont work. No aount of flooding will change WG once they stick to a course of action whenever you like it or not. They broke a class once and that what leads to the curent problem. lets just hope for everone wherever they are standing on the isue they dont do that twice.

[Capra76]

 

CVs have really long waiting time now. why shouldnt DDs have long waiting time?

 

 

It surprises me if CV have a really long wait, what tier is this at?  I can't see why a class representing <5% of the T9/10 games should have any trouble at all finding a match.

 

 

 

 

 

no its not impossible. There are still tier X games and in each battle 6 DDs can participate. The others have to wait.

 

Have you thought how long that wait would be?  Actually, if you think about is what you are asking for is that 45% of DD players are stopped from playing the game at all, and I'd wager that a good proportion of the rest end up being AFK.

 

 

The reason for the above is that if you match DD on a first in first out basis (FIFO) you will have a pool of unmatched DD that will grow as they are added faster than MM can find them games, the waiting time will only stabilise when it reaches an equilibrium where enough players are leaving the pool without joining a game to balance the new players joining, and since 45% of the game are DD players and only 25% of the slots are available that means 45% don't get a game at all.

 

 

Sorry, it's not going to happen, WG are not going to implement a rule that de facto bans 45% of the most popular class from the game.

 

 

 

 

[Capra76]

I have a question that is somewhat relevant to this discussion, where is the game out of balance?  I don't mean where are there too many or too few ships, I mean which classes of ships are OP and which classes are UP, if you can fix those balance issues you shouldn't need to worry about capping any DD.

 

 

From my perspective the large number of DD is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.  Either it means that DD are OP, or it means that BB are OP and CA are choosing to play DD instead.

 

If you look at the stats the average T9/10 game is currently 5-3-3-1, whereas the desired mix is 3-5-3-1, so the average game has 2 CA players playing as DD instead.

 

If the above were caused by OP DD torpedo spam it's a very odd result.  Although CA aren't immune from torpedoes they're much more able to dodge them and the large number of the class which they counter ought to encourage players into them, logically one would expect the BB to be the underplayed class, not CA.

 

What it looks like to me is that BB are hugely OP against CA, which means CA can't push forward to hunt DD, which means that CA are leaving the game and coming back as DD, which is just about keeping BB numbers in check.

 

Does anyone have a different perspective?

[ghostbuster_]

 

 

It surprises me if CV have a really long wait, what tier is this at?  I can't see why a class representing <5% of the T9/10 games should have any trouble at all finding a match.

 

 

 

 

 

Have you thought how long that wait would be?  Actually, if you think about is what you are asking for is that 45% of DD players are stopped from playing the game at all, and I'd wager that a good proportion of the rest end up being AFK.

 

 

The reason for the above is that if you match DD on a first in first out basis (FIFO) you will have a pool of unmatched DD that will grow as they are added faster than MM can find them games, the waiting time will only stabilise when it reaches an equilibrium where enough players are leaving the pool without joining a game to balance the new players joining, and since 45% of the game are DD players and only 25% of the slots are available that means 45% don't get a game at all.

 

 

Sorry, it's not going to happen, WG are not going to implement a rule that de facto bans 45% of the most popular class from the game.

 

 

 

 

 

5% or 50% doesnt matter. If someone gets long waiting time, there is no problem about someone else to get it too. 

You are just making it dramatic. that unmatched DD pool cannot grow that much. Do you think people would wait that long? Nope they would get an other ship and go into battle. Atm the DD problem is pushing people away from playing BBs and CAs. most of them are playing DDs too. With that solution, the waiting time can push people away from playing DDs and get some other ships. There are no other solution to this problem. Limit the number of DDs, its the best. There is no end of nerfing or buffing ships, thats why they cannot be an option to solve this problem.