when will WG finally adress the high tier game mechanics?

[Vaderan]

So we got another patch, 0.5.3 this time.

Tons of stuff and changes, some long expected, some half hearted implemented, some never wanted, and others, requested for a long time, still untouched.

 

I want to adress and discuss the high tier game mechanics (once more), basically the gameplay from tier 7+ above.

With the latest patch, some changes have been implemented which might or might have not serious impact on several aspects of the game.

The choice of the specific captains perks granted, and the specific modules build in on a ship, we get a bunch of optimisation choices for all classes, which come more or less with an AoE influence.

AAA now has more power for it´s long range bubbles, allowing players to coordinated for overlapping AAA bubbles.

BBs can now (in theory) enhance their secondary batteries to create a limited area denial zone.

DDs can choose to boost their torpedo speed a the cost of range, which reduces their area-denial weapon abilities, but makes them more potent and dangerous at shorter ranges.

 

Given the attributs most of these perks and changes work with, most of these changes are meant to effect the tier 7+ gameplay.

 

My interpretation of Wargamings intentions for these changes is: give BBs a reason to close the distance to the enemy so they can bring their secondaries to bear, instead of remainng on sniping positions. Give cruisers in particular, and captains of all classes a reason to play more teamorientated, by creating overlapping AAA bubbles. Seduce DDs for more daring maneuvres, closing the distance to the enemy so, on the other hand, spotters might have a chance to detect them.

 

So far, so good.

However, from my testbed and live server experience, it still doesn´t work.

 

DDs still work as area denial weapons, BBs still stick behind the forces they are supposed to support, and cruisers... yeah, are almost as rare to find in high tier battles as CVs these days. Despite all of WGs ambitions, high tier gameplay still feels broken.

 

Instead of now accusing special traits, habits or classes being the reason for this broken gameplay, i´d like to collect and discuss ideas how high tier gameplay could be overall improved. What changes could make sense? Should there be changes to classes, to game mechanics, to modules or perks?

 

I once had the idea to reduce overall engagment ranges. Reducing max range of the various weapon types. It has been discussed and basically discarded, especially with the point that the increased ranges re necessary as a kind of progress towards lower tiers.

 

These days, i think, the major issue are the huge maps. In order to prevent BB gunrange or DD torpedorange to cover the whole map, maps are increased in size, so positioning gains of importance. However, it just horribly increases the ammount of time required to travel from A to B.

From my point of view, the major benefit of the low to mid tier games is the reduced map size. There is less space to be crossed, less space to evade, maneuvre and hide, but still enough to make sure the games are fun.

 

I always read, best battle-distances are between something around 8-14km. This is the regular engagement area on mid tiers. BBs can hit something, cruisers can return fire, DDs have space to maneuvre and ambush.

In high tier battles, especially including those with tier 9 and 10 ships, distances increase drastically. Torp ranges grow into immense dimensions, BBs have huge gun-range, everything seems to happen on distance between 12 and 20km.

The maps allow for this, and maybe they even need to, considering the area controll DDs can have at ranges below 20km.

 

As said, my intentional idea to improve high tier battles would be a combination of reducing map size and adjusting weapon ranges of all classes. In addition, implement or change modules and captains perks in a way they offer a serious motivation to go for closer ranges. Ultra precise BB guns at 3km range didn´t do it, a secondary armament buff at captains perk tier 5 won´t do it, and a 20% range decrease for additional 5 knots on torpedoes won´t change it aswell.

 

I don´t say, my idea is perfect or flawless, but i feel something has to happen, to change, because whenever i decide to go for tier 7+ games, it basically requires one game to make me quit the game for the rest of the day. It´s just not fun.

 

What do you think? what are your ideas?

[Orkel2]

How to fix tier 8-10: Nerf torp walls, nerf smoke, buff Montana's bow armor to 33mm to stop Yamato overmatches, and buff hydroacoustic on cruisers.

Smoke needs to be made into a team support ability instead of a personal romulan stealth device, currently it's abused by every DD captain to sit still in their grey bubble invisi-firing at 5km. Smoke should work like bushes in WoT, when you fire you lose its camo.

[RamirezKurita]

I think part of the reason why people fight at such long ranges is because of the crippling repair bills at the higher tiers. If someone lands a couple of hits but takes no damage in return, then it is overall an economic win for him; but if he goes in and brawls, taking out a couple of ships in exchange for his own, then he overall suffers from an economic loss. The repair costs basically mean that survival is far more important that actually doing things.

[General_Alexus]

 

I dont think Shimakazes / Kagerus /... are OP, but i think there is one issue that could be changed: Nerf the HE Dmg of IJN Gunns, as it is right now as a Gunboat DD who should Counter IJN DDs everyone is upset about, you cant kill them. They spot you 1-2 KM before you spot them, they derp you 4k dmg in the Face destroy one of your Guns and smoke while an other IJN DD spot you and he shoots you from smoke.

I mean sure you win every gunfight in an 1 vs 1 Situation but you never have a 1 vs 1 and ist just not worth it Hunting IJN DDs if only because you loose your Turrets after the first 2 Salvos.

 

[TheFlyingScot]

How to fix tier 8-10: Nerf torp walls, nerf smoke, buff Montana's bow armor to 33mm to stop Yamato overmatches, and buff hydroacoustic on cruisers.

Smoke needs to be made into a team support ability instead of a personal romulan stealth device, currently it's abused by every DD captain to sit still in their grey bubble invisi-firing at 5km. Smoke should work like bushes in WoT, when you fire you lose its camo.

 

I'd be more happier if you could fire a limited number of shots before you were discovered 

[Mayv]

I dont think Shimakazes / Kagerus /... are OP, but i think there is one issue that could be changed: Nerf the HE Dmg of IJN Gunns, as it is right now as a Gunboat DD who should Counter IJN DDs everyone is upset about, you cant kill them. They spot you 1-2 KM before you spot them, they derp you 4k dmg in the Face destroy one of your Guns and smoke while an other IJN DD spot you and he shoots you from smoke.

I mean sure you win every gunfight in an 1 vs 1 Situation but you never have a 1 vs 1 and ist just not worth it Hunting IJN DDs if only because you loose your Turrets after the first 2 Salvos.

 

Would it not be better to increase USN DD turret armor for some reason the Flecthers and Gearings is 6-19mm compared to the Bensons 16-19mm.

[txtspeak]

currently it's abused by every DD captain to sit still in their grey bubble invisi-firing at 5km. Smoke should work like bushes in WoT, when you fire you lose its camo.

just looking at this reminds me of how it should really be used. as a panic button if you get spotted by something you can't kill before it kills you. panic and pop smoke and get away without dying

[General_Alexus]

 

Would it not be better to increase USN DD turret armor for some reason the Flecthers and Gearings is 6-19mm compared to the Bensons 16-19mm.

 

Sure would work as well. The biggest Problem is that most People dont play Gunboats, you are outnumbered against IJN DDs in every single game. I had one round in my Khaberowsk yesterday, were my Team had me and 2 Udaloy, the Enemy Team had Shimas and Kagerus. They had no Chance, at the Moment, you dont have to go IJN hunting alone the concept of Gunboats balancing IJN DDs is good. Part of the Problem are the IJN DDs itself: countless times i try to escort one and the Moment he spot an enemy DD he smoke and run of behind me, i had nothing to shoot anymore, if your own IJN DDs would just Play smart and let me do my Job everything would be fine, but as it is right now, your own DDs camp as hard as BBs, it´s like 2 CVs ignoring each other. That is the Problem with the Gamedesign that DDs are hard counter to DDs, they dont want to do the Job because they are on the same Level and dont have an Advantage like BBs against Crusers ( a la "I sail BB and therefore i have the right to oneclick Crusers even if i Play like a moron" )

[t3h3th32]

This guy nailed 1 of the most brutal problems: map design. Why? it's rarely talked about, while it influences literally the entire behavior of the game. Yes, you can buff this or nerf that, but it all boils down to the map design.

 

Back in the days, I also suggested to shorten the range a lot within every single ship, but guns get more and more devastating, so in higher tiers, you simply need to keep the distance as much as possible or get deleted in 1 salvo.

 

back to the map issue: lower tier maps are much more fun to play, because of more islands, thus more cover, thus more tactical thinking. In high tiers, there're absolutely shitty maps, where you have these huge opened areas no one wants to push into, e.g. B on Atlantic, B on Ice, A on Trap, etc.

 

By creating more complex maps, where every gets a chance to turn around and flee, if things go badly, you'll encourage far much more interesting style of gameplay, instead of everyone shitting their pants to enter a huge area, where everyone will focus you, you can't turn, wall of torps, etc.

 

Cheers,

~t3h'Pâr4d0x

[Namolis]

Give my battleship a rudder, and I'll gladly get stuck in.

 

With a 950m turning cirlce and 22s rudder shift times, any time my Montana moves to an unspotted location, I'm basically holding myself hostage to fortune. If I need to pull back, I expose my broadside and I'm toast - unless, of course, the enemy can't get a shot off in over 30 seconds. If I get a surprise torpedo attack, I'm toast. If I get incoming planes, I'm toast. You need to be sure, because there is no undo in a high tier BB.

 

The difference between high and low tier is not, as some seem to think, repair cost, but maneuverability. I don't load up my ship intending to make money. I load it up inteding to win. I don't care if I die, as long as I do more harm to the enemy than he does to me. But: dying just for the sake of dying is never a good strategy. Every time I try to stay with cruisers, I die and feel foolish afterwards. The limit seems to be around 750m circle and 15s rudder. Any more than that and you really start feeling the effect of being "trapped bow on" and unable to turn. NC seems to be about the upper limit on this (that's why I like her so much). Montana's 950m with 22 s rudder just ruins the ship completely.

 

You're so sluggish you really need to be sure before you commit. Cruisers, won't move in without their battleship support (the smart ones, anyway) and dds run around having fun, unless there is a CV, in which case they are super careful too. This is what causes the passive and conservative gameplay you see at high tier.

[Vaderan]

Some very interesting points made so far.

I like the discussion about the different DD styles and how to adjust them.

The point Namolis made, considering the rudder shift times is very valid aswell. I experienced just that situation pretty often. You want to do the "tank job" for your team and get wasted, because you are literaly trapped down bow forward.

 

Considering the maps, i would really like to see how high tier matches would work out on the much smaller maps. I can remember a time in Alpha and Beta test, where the new huge maps were rather rare, and it was pretty common to end up with your Yamato or Iowa on a medium map (at last, what i would call a medium sized map). Back in those days, there were many complains about games on the huge maps. Just for a test, maybe allowing high tier games to happen on the medium maps again would be worth a try...

[AgarwaenME]

just looking at this reminds me of how it should really be used. as a panic button if you get spotted by something you can't kill before it kills you. panic and pop smoke and get away without dying

 

Yes, and BB armour should work the same way, a panic button you activate now and then. same with that 20km+ range, they shouldn't be allowed to just sit at long range and fire guns in total safety.

 

Nevermind, continue your anti-DD circlejerk. I'm sure there won't be unintended consequences if WG listens to your whining on this too, not like nerfing CVs or CAs caused games to fill up with DDs now is it.. oh wait.. damn.. 

[Frank_F_B]

Nice post Vaderan, thanks.

 

My thoughts on this topic:

I like the big maps, feels like seebattles

The economic are off, WG should do something about the repair bills

Another thing to make high tier battles more interesting is the layout of the teams, per team 1 or 2 CV's 2/3 battleships 2/3 DD's the rest CA's But that is my opinion. Or create an event like team battles but then for high tiers only.

Smoke I do agree with you and I like my destroyers. Smoke is to blanket an area for your team, or to escape, not to invisifire. 

 

And yes changes must be made, because I rather play tier 5-7 with fun than 8-10 with heartache. 

[Capra76]

Dunno about higher tier but I am properly hacked off with my T5 Kongo today.

 

Used up my day's reports on an idiot CV captain who thought it was more fun to torpedo his own team (me), RNG deciding that perfectly aimed broadsides against CA at mid range cause 1,000 damage a time while CA can shell, burn and if he gets bored of that torpedo me out of existence.

 

Not a good day's play.

[Vaderan]

Dunno about higher tier but I am properly hacked off with my T5 Kongo today.

 

Used up my day's reports on an idiot CV captain who thought it was more fun to torpedo his own team (me), RNG deciding that perfectly aimed broadsides against CA at mid range cause 1,000 damage a time while CA can shell, burn and if he gets bored of that torpedo me out of existence.

 

 

Not a good day's play.

 

I´m with you and can feel your pain, regarding RNG, but this is, with all respect, not the place to discuss it. I really would appreciate improvements on BB RNG, but in here, i would like to elaborate, how to improve high tier games. RNG is still a factor in here, but not the one which makes these games feel so awkward...

[XTHD]

Personally I find the high tier gameplay fundamentally balanced, as long as certain ships are restricted in numbers, e.g. no triple Shima divisions etc. However I would say that the balancing works differently on high tiers, namely many ships have different roles. Also the overall gameplay is much more "cutthroat" with mistakes getting you sunk very quickly. This creates complications in combination with the repair costs.

 

For example: I find that battleships are no longer the most effective damage dealers*, they are more "damage threats" as in they can potentially deal damage if you screw up. What they do best is gaining map control by pushing and making enemies retreat. This would usually result in you giving your team an advantage that they might not use, and being sunk in the process for no real reward. Now, personally I like to win, but I also like to farm credits, so these two desires come in conflict. A Yamato played properly can be very effective, but it is also a terrible credit sink then, and this is the reason why I don't play mine. Others resort to camping in the back instead, avoiding damage. Hence the feel of broken, stagnant gameplay.

 

If we had team battles for tier X, then the matches would look very differently. "Juggernaut" Yamatos would make torps walls less effective because you wouldn't be able to launch enough of them in time. Cruisers are very strong in tier X so they would play a considerably larger role than in tier VII-VIII. CVs being deadly by also extra vulnerable due to CV sniping being very doable. And DDs create a constant threat of torp walls. Harder, more demanding, but not imbalanced. This will never happen in random battles though, because credit farm > taking risks.

 

tl;dr

If everyone plays to win, high tiers (9-10) are balanced pretty well. Problem is a lot of players like to farm credits.

 

P.S.

* This I mean against decent players. BBs are only a threat under certain circumstances that you can avoid if you give up some space. If you think you can "rek cruisers" in your BB, remember my name and if I run into you while sailing my Zao, I'll make you think again.

[Takru]

You need to bring back CVs as a much more commonly sighted part of battles. This would in turn mean that DDs would be in danger of being spotted more often, which in turn would make cruisers more viable as DD hunters.

[Namolis]

Personally I find the high tier gameplay fundamentally balanced, as long as certain ships are restricted in numbers, e.g. no triple Shima divisions etc. However I would say that the balancing works differently on high tiers, namely many ships have different roles. Also the overall gameplay is much more "cutthroat" with mistakes getting you sunk very quickly. This creates complications in combination with the repair costs.

 

For example: I find that battleships are no longer the most effective damage dealers*, they are more "damage threats" as in they can potentially deal damage if you screw up.

P.S.

* This I mean against decent players. BBs are only a threat under certain circumstances that you can avoid if you give up some space. If you think you can "rek cruisers" in your BB, remember my name and if I run into you while sailing my Zao, I'll make you think again.

Ah.... I see. You are one of those rare CA players who practice the dark arts of WASD. For shame. I cannot say how much I hate facing players who stoops to such skullduggery. No honor whatsoever.

 

It genuinely baffles me how many people will just try some high tier BB play, get one-shotted and go back to the forums declaring that "cruisers get deleted" - not once stopping to think if there was anything they could have done differently.

 

On the same note - I recently started playing cruisers, having played almost exclusively battleships, and I am (unsurprisingly) still relatively rubbish. The one thing I feel quite confident in doing was going up 1v1 vs a battleship. (1v2 is usually death, though.)

 

Anyway, this is really a subset of what I was talking about a couple of posts back. On lower tiers the BB can return the favor somewhat if the CA instists on staying at long ranges. At T10, he can't, he's too slow. That feeling of helplessness is just the worst in the world.

 

Now, battleships used to have these bad rudders back in the day, but so did everyone else (plus torpedoes were easier to spot). Now the CA can move to about 15-16 km and the BB can't get out of the way and he will only be able to hit back based on luck. If the CA is extra evil, he will invisifire based purely on range (seriously, I don't understand how WG thinks that mechanic is fun for anyone). Now that nerf is a BB only thing. For Yamato it's not too bad, beacuse it can function as a sniper, but Montana needs to be able to move to function. Naturally, it got the worst manouverability of the lot.

 

Someone at WG hates that ship with a passion, that's for sure.

 

 What they do best is gaining map control by pushing and making enemies retreat. This would usually result in you giving your team an advantage that they might not use, and being sunk in the process for no real reward. Now, personally I like to win, but I also like to farm credits, so these two desires come in conflict. A Yamato played properly can be very effective, but it is also a terrible credit sink then, and this is the reason why I don't play mine. Others resort to camping in the back instead, avoiding damage. Hence the feel of broken, stagnant gameplay.

 

If we had team battles for tier X, then the matches would look very differently. "Juggernaut" Yamatos would make torps walls less effective because you wouldn't be able to launch enough of them in time. Cruisers are very strong in tier X so they would play a considerably larger role than in tier VII-VIII. CVs being deadly by also extra vulnerable due to CV sniping being very doable. And DDs create a constant threat of torp walls. Harder, more demanding, but not imbalanced. This will never happen in random battles though, because credit farm > taking risks.

 

tl;dr

If everyone plays to win, high tiers (9-10) are balanced pretty well. Problem is a lot of players like to farm credits.

 

 Well, I don't quite agree with this. I don't see high tier matches ending in almost nobody sinking very often (it happens, but it's rare). I think for most people, they will see a situation and make a decition on whether to go there and fight based on a) "how likely is it that I die" and b) "how much damage would I be able to do". If the answer to a) is "very", the answer to b) is pretty given.

[bloodynicknames]

How to fix tier 8-10: Nerf torp walls, nerf smoke, buff Montana's bow armor to 33mm to stop Yamato overmatches, and buff hydroacoustic on cruisers.

Smoke needs to be made into a team support ability instead of a personal romulan stealth device, currently it's abused by every DD captain to sit still in their grey bubble invisi-firing at 5km. Smoke should work like bushes in WoT, when you fire you lose its camo.

 

Gearing without smokescreen is essentially pointless.

the whole idea of T10 gunboat gameplay is flawed considering how easily you get ripped to shreds and how often you get spotted by planes.

only viable T10 DD currently is shima thanks to torpwall. Gearing is fun when playing against T8 + T9 as you rip anything to shreds outside a BB but at equal Tier it just sucks.

 

[Kazomir]

One word: RADAR

[Lance_Horne]

I think part of the reason why people fight at such long ranges is because of the crippling repair bills at the higher tiers. If someone lands a couple of hits but takes no damage in return, then it is overall an economic win for him; but if he goes in and brawls, taking out a couple of ships in exchange for his own, then he overall suffers from an economic loss. The repair costs basically mean that survival is far more important that actually doing things.

 

I think this is a big issue, you play hard to get to a higher tier ship only to be penalized by crippling repair costs, I like to get stuck in with my BB's, but at higher tiers you just lose credits playing this way, forcing you to be cautious and fighting long range . I know one of the reasons this is done is to keep players using lower tier ships but it does spoil the game.

[ilhilh]

I think part of the reason why people fight at such long ranges is because of the crippling repair bills at the higher tiers. If someone lands a couple of hits but takes no damage in return, then it is overall an economic win for him; but if he goes in and brawls, taking out a couple of ships in exchange for his own, then he overall suffers from an economic loss. The repair costs basically mean that survival is far more important that actually doing things.

 

I must be in a minority that doesn't pay much attention to my repair costs.  I have only recently acquired my first 2 tier Xs and kitting out my Montana crippled me to the extent that I was going into battles with 100k credits in my Yamato and coming out with... well about 300k actually.  So not that crippling... especially since I only play a couple of t10 games each session and inbetween I play my grind ships and prems.

[_GrimLock__]

 

Gearing without smokescreen is essentially pointless.

the whole idea of T10 gunboat gameplay is flawed considering how easily you get ripped to shreds and how often you get spotted by planes.

only viable T10 DD currently is shima thanks to torpwall. Gearing is fun when playing against T8 + T9 as you rip anything to shreds outside a BB but at equal Tier it just sucks.

 

 

Fletcher as i said a couple of times is the true t10 of us dd.Gearing has a lot of dissavantages compered to fletcher.But if people play gearing just because is t10 than..

[Lance_Horne]

 

I must be in a minority that doesn't pay much attention to my repair costs.  I have only recently acquired my first 2 tier Xs and kitting out my Montana crippled me to the extent that I was going into battles with 100k credits in my Yamato and coming out with... well about 300k actually.  So not that crippling... especially since I only play a couple of t10 games each session and inbetween I play my grind ships and prems.

 

I have never complained until today and like yourself have never really lost much money playing high tier ships (shimakaze and Iowa) until I acquired the Izumo. With the Izumo I seem to be losing money at a very fast rate!

[MS_Surface]

The problem is that BB players are extremely passive at high tiers and CA players are extremely scared of fighting.

I always try to face DDs and go in their direction, this is when i have, at least, one DD and one CA as support. But then i look again and the CA is running away from the DD (!?), i see this a lot playing as a DD, sometimes, with 4 torpedoes you make 3 or 4 ships turn around and you ask yourself " why the hell BBs and CAs are already turning back? They could easily deal with me, if they wanted...". Sometimes i feel like high tier battles are just captains running away from each other. I'm not afraid of letting my BB get hit by 1 or 2 torpedoes, usually it's other ships that sink me, DDs must be the class that makes the less avg dmg on my ship.

The one to blame here, as it was said before in other posts, is the game mechanics that may be putting standard account players away from High Tiers, such is the ridiculous amount of damage repair they have to pay, and those who try to play agressively, like me, end up seal clubbing in a Isokaze to pay for the high tier ships losses.

 

One thing i have to admit, i may complain a lot about repair costs but it's also true that this must be the easier grinding game in the market and that's something devs have to take into account because otherwise it would be like the public test where i couldn't even test a few Tier VIII ships as i always got matched with 23 Tier X ships.