0.5.3 - CAs - AFT Mk2

[t3h3th32]

With 0.5.3 almost upon us, the madness is filling up the entire Gameplay forums:

 

1. please, buff other CAs like Kutuzov as well
2. please, bring back AFT
3. please, buff Mogami
4. please, buff Cleveland
5. AFT changes unfair
6. Kutuzov now too OP
7. and around 1,000 other like it, including this post...

 

While soon having an entire website dedicated to this light CAs mass murder in the game, before going LIVE with it, I was just curious about 2 things, thus adding the poll.

 

Also, coming up with an alternative approach to this whole mess, because believe it or not, this is not like nerfing the mighty Yamato and giving it the same heal as any other BBs, although I disagree with that, so what or taking away those F-16s fighter jets, which were closer to X-Wing performance in the game. This issue will hit all CAs players and there's quite a few of us.

 

PROPOSITION NUMBER 1: http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/43439-dear-wg-please-reconsider-gradual-dispersion-of-benefits-for-the-upcoming-v053-captain-skills-instead-of-strict-binary-onoff-cut-off-points/ (my friend made a very decent suggestion, so check it out!)

 

PROPOSITION NUMBER 2: this is alternative solution to the whole mess, but only the range aspect of it, because my friend's solution doesn't account for 1 hidden bug, which basically happened with AFT as well and that's the insane range stacking (because if my friend's method was to be applied, Kutuzov might gain the ability to reach 22 km with its guns, so perhaps, in the end, we could create a combination of our methods)...

 

Many people proposed to just give all CAs a good range, however you're aware, that if you just give all CAs good range, just like that, for free, it'll completely murder the entire balance, right? This is why the captain range skill is so necessary, so each ship captain will start with either average or shitty range and if he wants to play that ship more, he can grind for those 4 skill points and buy that range.

 

Range captain perk should be available for all ships, however, each ship would have 2 types of ranges in their port stats:

 

1. artillery gun range
2. maximum artillery gun range

 

Now, for example:

 

• Omaha B: artillery gun range = 12,7 km - maximum artillery gun range = 15,2 km (gain: 2,5 km)
• Cleveland: artillery gun range = 14,6 km - maximum artillery gun range = 16 km (gain: 1,4 km)
• Myoko: artilelry gun range = 16,1 km - maximum artillery gun range = 17 km (gain: 0,9 km)
• Kutuzov: artillery gun range = 19,1 km - maximum artillery gun range = 19,1 km (gain: 0,0 km)

 

Explanation here is very simple. Each ship can buy this upgrade perk, but each ship benefits in a different way, so for instance, you can't get Kutuzov with 21,6 km. Simple, fast, elegant.

 

Cheers,

~t3h'Pâr4d0x

[MudMonkey]

Buff Cleveland? Well, I don't like the mortar like guns but its still a strong ship. It just doesn't belong into tier 6 imho.

 

And obvioulsy you need to make gold ships stronk so they sell good. Or better.

[t3h3th32]

Buff Cleveland? Well, I don't like the mortar like guns but its still a strong ship. It just doesn't belong into tier 6 imho.

 

And obvioulsy you need to make gold ships stronk so they sell good. Or better.

 

And that's exactly the global misunderstanding. I'm not saying to buff the Cleveland. I'm saying, give the players an opportunity or a chance to buff ship's stats, if they so desire. In case of Cleveland, nobody cares about the range, because you can't aim past 14 km, that was merely an example, however, if someone wants to buy such upgrade and buff it, give him the opportunity.

 

You can buff ship's concealment, with 0.5.3, you can also buff ship's HP, the possibility of buffing traverse speed is still there. The range upgrades got somewhat pushed to only T9 and T10 CAs, which is kinda waste in my opinion. Once again, 4 or even 5 captain's skill points isn't really a cheap upgrade.

 

Furthermore, I'm completely okay with them buffing Kutuzov. My issue only is, other ships were robbed of the opportunity to grind and at least try to get somewhat similar stats, the range for instance, e.g. Mogami 18,1 km with 4 skill points is too OP, Kutuzov with 19,1 km with 0 skill points is perfectly cool, well, it'd be, but at least give Mogami the opportunity to grind and get the range.

 

Cheers,

~t3h'Pâr4d0x

[Kurbain]

There's a lot of complaining prior to the introduction of every patch and I admit I tend to be one of those people doing the complaining sometimes, but overall I'm in the "Let's wait and see" department.
Did AFT/BFT/EM require some adjustment because it was never intended to work for 155mm primary guns? Yes.

Was it a good idea to simply adjust AFT/BFT/EM to 139mm? I dunno, maybe not.
But WG employees got access to a lot more statistical data than we do and there's got to be a method to their "madness".

If not...well, at least the large amount of changes will mix up the gameplay and since I grind nearly all ship lines I will just play whatever happens to be the new style. I really hope it's not actually IJN DDs, though.
 

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

 

But WG employees got access to a lot more statistical data than we do and there's got to be a method to their "madness".

 

 

 

+1 for the wise advice.

 

Yes they do have data. But let's not fool ourselves, they also have their own agenda, and they use this when looking at that data.

 

I have access to my own stats, and I'll be systematically collecting data on my own performance after 0.5.3 is released.  This will allow me to quantify the effect of the changes on my performance in terms of facts & figures, rather than just vague impressions. 

 

Unlike yourself, I gave up on other lines apart from Light Cruisers (with an unsuccessful dabble in DD gunships recently). Therefore if Light Cruisers are screwed then I personally am screwed (as far as this game is concerned). Hence my extreme nervousness about the way the game seems to be heading.

 

 

[JG4_sKylon]

I am totally ok with the AFT change. In my opinion 15xmm guns should never ever outrange the 2xxmm guns.

The CL is more agile, the turrets turn faster, more RPM etc. In short, its more flexible and user friendly.

Two exceptions might be the `bergs. They will become sluggish, floating citadels with slow turrets and lower RPM.

I never used AFT on them, but compared to the other low caliber CLs they already have slower turning turrets.

 

I hope that WG will someday take care of higher tiers, especially CAs and DDs.

Though i have some T9s and a T10, i almost don´t play them.

 

[XTHD]

The biggest issues with AFT changes are the weird preferential treatment that some ships got. It isn't just that Kutuzov got the range, dpm and turret rotation rate increase to compensate, it's that it was balanced from the start assuming players used these captain skills, and now they don't have to anymore. These skillpoints will go into something else, like DE, effectively giving Kutuzov a considerable buff. But somehow devs forgot about other ships that also need AFT and BFT, like Marblehead that is utter garbage without it, and becomes workable with, and the entire bunch of lower tier cruisers that made use of BFT and EM and now are weaker.

 

You max range cap proposition is actually good and even makes sense as guns can have their range hard capped by elevation limits. This would also instantly solve loads of "potentially OP" issues, and give a possibility for more diverse loadouts. For example, if the max range is capped at 15km for SN DDs, they could let them have the 3mil range upgrade, which could be used in place for AFT to extend range. This way you could choose a different level 4 captain skill if you wanted to.

[Nechrom]

The AFT change is fine. But a few ships need fixing as a result and not in 6 months, but now.

I don't believe that most ships in the tier V and lower bracket needed AFT at all. It just made USN BBs that much more frustrating to use. There are of course exceptions to that rule, like the Albany (which they fixed) and Yubari (which they didn't fix and also ruined as an AA platform).

They also need to roll back the Mogami nerfs they put in place specifically because it could use AFT, BFT and Expert Marksman. That's just common sense. Then they can look at increasing the base range a bit if it is needed.

[Jadefalken]

I can see people are upset by the recent changes but when they nerfed my soviet DD's I never created 1 post complaining about the lack of HE damage etc etc... This is the first time ever in WG products I play that a ship I own and enjoy playing is not receiving a nerf so I am happy!

 

I played IJN cruisers during Beta Testing and sort of grinded them during live server as well the US line. IJN have extremely powerful tier 10 ships.. and it proves that ZAO dominates top tier Cruiser play for now... and well the whine threads about the Shimmy must prove something!

 

I have been at the other end of nerfs during WoT's and the Russian DD's here in WoW's. How much fun is it when you see a team full of IJN ships because other nations are weaker compared to them? How many times do you see posts about the Russian DD's being oped? How many times do you see posts about the Gearing being oped? Montanna...

 

I welcome these changes not only because I own the Mikhail Kutuzov which is no way a game carrying ship! but I really cannot understand why 1 class of Ships for example the IJN cruisers have to be the most oped in every tier??? 

[RamirezKurita]

Firstly, people should get some terminology right, it is the CLs that are affected, not the CAs. CAs are either armoured cruisers or heavy cruisers, while CLs are light cruisers (it even stands for Cruiser, Light).

 

My first opinion is that how they treat CLs should be consistent, if they are buffing the Kutuzov then they should perform an identical set of changes for all of the CLs.

 

My second opinion is that AFT and BFT should never have affected main batteries in the first place, it should only affect secondaries and AA batteries. By avoiding artificial cutoffs and just going for the whole range, the skill would affect everyone equally. EM instead should simply be a percentage increase in speed, which overall achieves much the same effect as the cutoff as higher calibre guns tend to have slower turn rates. If necessary, parallel skills to AFT and BFT could be added in the main gunnery skills to provide range and RoF benefits for main batteries, which would then still give players the option of speccing into long range sniping at the expense of secondaries and AA, by simply making it a percentage that affects all calibres then a range-specced CA might outrange a basic BB but it will never rival a range-specced BB.

 

The Cleveland really doesn't belong in T6, it belongs in T7 at earliest but ideally T8, considering its age and displacement. It should be monitored carefully due to its current problematic position in the tech tree until they finally get around to moving it. There's also the point that, looking at the historical specs of the Kutuzov, it belongs more in T9 then T8, being significantly newer and larger than the Mogami class and the New Orleans class.

[Spithas]

The Cleveland will be fine. The Mogami needs a buff.

[NoirLotus]

The Cleveland will be fine. The Mogami needs to be unnerfed.

 

Fixed it for you ...

[MATREKUS]

The biggest issues with AFT changes are the weird preferential treatment that some ships got. It isn't just that Kutuzov got the range, dpm and turret rotation rate increase to compensate, it's that it was balanced from the start assuming players used these captain skills, and now they don't have to anymore. These skillpoints will go into something else, like DE, effectively giving Kutuzov a considerable buff. But somehow devs forgot about other ships that also need AFT and BFT, like Marblehead that is utter garbage without it, and becomes workable with, and the entire bunch of lower tier cruisers that made use of BFT and EM and now are weaker.

Devs didnt forgot anything dude...Kutuzov is premium and wasnt selling well...there you go, that is the reason why it got a massive buff...all the crap mentioned in patch notes (why it got buffed) is just nonsense...

 

 

live with that...dont ignore...

[MudMonkey]

 

And that's exactly the global misunderstanding. I'm not saying to buff the Cleveland.

 

With 0.5.3 almost upon us, the madness is filling up the entire Gameplay forums:

 

1. please, buff other CAs like Kutuzov as well
2. please, bring back AFT
3. please, buff Mogami
4. please, buff Cleveland

[Jadefalken]

Lol good find sir.

[anonym_1YeUldJS8pjx]

AFAIK Mogami gets a range buff +600m (and Myoko a range nerf -500m) with this next patch.

Mogami will be close to Atago then.

Does the 155mm need a traverse buff? Don't think so. 155mm schould become entry guns for Mogami.

 

Anyway - high tier cruiser gameplay is still useless.

[Spithas]

AFAIK Mogami gets a range buff +600m (and Myoko a range nerf -500m) with this next patch.

Mogami will be close to Atago then.

Does the 155mm need a traverse buff? Don't think so. 155mm schould become entry guns for Mogami.

 

Anyway - high tier cruiser gameplay is still useless.

 

High tier cruiser gameplaye is fine. Tier 8 non premium cruiser gameplay has problems. 

[Nechrom]

 

t3h3th32, on 16 February 2016 - 10:59 PM, said:

 

And that's exactly the global misunderstanding. I'm not saying to buff the Cleveland.

 

With 0.5.3 almost upon us, the madness is filling up the entire Gameplay forums:

 

1. please, buff other CAs like Kutuzov as well
2. please, bring back AFT
3. please, buff Mogami
4. please, buff Cleveland

 

He's saying that's what other people say on the forums. Not what he wants to happen.

Read thoroughly, don't just skim.

[Meneleus]

Lol good find sir.

 

Not really. He is grossly misrepresenting the OP.

 

4. Please buff the Cleveland = (part of) the madness is filling up the entire Gameplay forums.

 

Cheers, M

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

AFAIK Mogami gets a range buff +600m (and Myoko a range nerf -500m) with this next patch.

Mogami will be close to Atago then.

Does the 155mm need a traverse buff? Don't think so. 155mm schould become entry guns for Mogami.

 

Anyway - high tier cruiser gameplay is still useless.

 

These rumours have been greatly exaggerated. Nothing is confirmed yet.

 

From post #641 by Takeda92 in thread "Some interesting info from RU"   (my emphasis)

 

From the RU 0.5.3 bulletin thread: http://forum.worldof...dpost&p=1838440

 

- No plans to return Mogami to tier 7

- There are plans to add 600 m to the range on Mogami (yay!) and to take 500 m from the range of Myoko (nay!) but it is not confirmed and will not happen right after 0.5.3. No stats for Mogami will change before 0.5.3.

[Jadefalken]

 

Not really. He is grossly misrepresenting the OP.

 

4. Please buff the Cleveland = (part of) the madness is filling up the entire Gameplay forums.

 

Cheers, M

 

Not just Cleveland everyone who does not own a mikhail are complaining... The few who know what the forums are...

 

All this talk about how they are nervine ships and bad Dec's for buffing mikhail of amazing.. The ones crying do jpt even own a mikhail so how can they say it does not need the buff?

[MudMonkey]

 

 

He's saying that's what other people say on the forums. Not what he wants to happen.

Read thoroughly, don't just skim.

 

Ok. Let's clear this up. Perhaps you are out of the element here.

My first post was a "What? Why buff Cleveland?". OP thought I would indicate that it is his opinion. That is wrong. Never said that. I was just expressing my disbelieve that ppl say something like this.

 

When OP posted his response to my statement, he said that he never said it needs a buff. Maybe my response to that was a bit hasty ^^ (stuff to do, socks to sort etc.) but I was just pointing out that he wrote it indeed, even if it wasn't his opinion which I never questioned.

Now as we have cleared this up, can we pls continue the discussion?

[SgtTincan]

id love them to change cleveland back to how it was in cbt. and then swap mogami/myoko back while they be on it

 

[Sake78]

Does the 155mm need a traverse buff? Don't think so. 155mm schould become entry guns for Mogami.

Says who? So, MK is a performing light cruiser at tier 8 with 152mm guns, but Mogami cannot be one with 155`s? MK is getting buffed based on the need of certain qualities for a said light cruiser, but Mogami cannot possibly get them / be a light cruiser? What logic is this?

 

It can get different ranges based on guns equipped, it can get an extra hull to complement said range, based on guns used, or can get retroactive buffs for loss of captain skills, but it HAS to be a heavy..why? Because it ALSO has 203mm guns as a choice? Sorry, but that isn`t a sound logic. There are ways to make it a viable choice for both choices / fits - light or heavy - and BOTH should be better than the MK AND the Atago, any other "silver" cruiser also, past, present or future. The Mogami already loses one gun per turret between the calibre switches, so why not get the rest of the ... "Kutuzovifyed" qualities for the 155`s?

[t3h3th32]

@ Kurbain: Absolutely it needed a change, people often yell at me that the #bringbackAFT initiative is about literally bringing back AFT, which isn't true. I admit, it's too OP to buff your main guns, AA and secondaries all with 1 perk, that's why I'm suggesting to introduce a new range buffing perk. Could be for light CAs only at the beginning or simply allowed for a few of other ships, which weren't given a default good range, so player is ALLOWED to grind and buff the specs on his own. Also, if WG employees got those data, why they send a guy with 8 forum posts to deliver some bogus pseudo-official statement on why this change was done talking about some Aurora.

 

@Admiral_H_Nelson: Yes, light CAs are screwed. I could honestly even wrap my mind around the AFT for now, but giving Cleveland and Yamato the same turret traverse bonus could approve only a guy hooked on Cocaine. Also, I'm starting to grind German CAs, I'll just crapon enemy BBs from 16,5 km, instead of 15,2 km with my Omaha, that's really good balancing there done, indeed.

 

@JG4_sKylon: Again, I'd agree. Without German T5s and T6s and Kutuzov, I'd lose 90% of my arguments. The outranging aspect wasn't that critical, however, because 155 mm had always insane arc and much slower velocity, so aiming with those was never easy in long-range duels. But yes, if you gonna nerf the gun ranges, do it equally, not in the way it was done, e.g. hurting Omaha, König is ok, hurting Mogami, Kutuzov is ok, that's the core issue here.

 

@XTHD: Yes, thank you for your post. You nailed it, this is more revolving around the preferential treatment and once again, I'm cool even with that, give Kutuzov 19,1 km, fine by me, but if this ship has it, ALLOW other ships (e.g. Mogami) to at least GRIND to get this upgrade.

 

@Nechrom: Of course, within T5, it was only really beneficial for Omaha, why would German T5 buy AFT, when it already got better range, than some T8 ships. So, this range change wasn't thought through. I enjoyed my Omaha with 15,2 km, now, I'll simple grind Königsberg and rain hell from 16 km, that's just not making any sense and yes, BBs will always get frustrated by CAs spamming them from distance and setting them on fire, but if this is such an issue, nerf all the ranegs equally, goddamn.

 

@Ivanovich_Rudakov: Russian DDs setting 4 fires on a BB with 4 salvos within like 30 seconds was kinda OP and it was a wide nerf. However, how would you feel, if you enjoyed playing Russian DDs, their ability to start fires would be set to 1% and a new premium Russian DD was introduced into the game and its chance to start fires was set to 20% instead? That's sorta what's happening here and that's the problem, not the nerf itself. Also, google Flamu's YouTube channel and search for Kutuzov gameplay and his 150K highlights, I know, Flamu would be probably able to do 150K with Erie, but point is, if stats compared, it's simply Mogami on steroids, there can be no discussion about that.

 

@RamirezKurita: I think, we all realize that it's a bug, when main batteries are affected by "Secondary Armament" captain perk, regardless it took the devs 1 year to realize that, so be it. I'm vouching for an addition of a new skill, which would buff gun range on ships, if the player so desired it, while it can be directly controlled by WG through setting a maximum gun range value for each ship. Also, I'm using the CA shortcut, because no one pointed it out to me before, so, when talking about CAs, I guess, I mean CLs, now we know.

 

@Spithas: I never intended to mount AFT on my Cleveland, I have DE mounted it, however, the turret traverse will become a true facepalm.

 

@NoirLotus: Yep.

 

@Tvrdi1976: By all means, buff it. I'll be most likely buying it, but I'm not an hypocrite trying to convince everyone, it's fine. Make this ship good by default, allow other ships to grind to become that good.

 

@StupidRhino: So, you think, 155 mm should benefit the same way as 460 mm in traverse speed? I see.

 

@Spithas: I enjoy high tiers a lot more, than I used to, however, I still think, there's a lack of proper DD-counters. Mogami was a good counter with its stealth and 155 mm setup, Kutuzov is kinda okish, but we need more ships like that in higher tiers.

 

@Nechrom: Hah, yeah. I don't think Cleveland needs a buff at all. EM hurts it, but the way it was before 0.5.3 was fine. Strong ship, noob-friendly ship, yes, but why not?

 

@Ivanovich_Rudakov: Not really. I'll be buying Kutuzov most likely, when it's back on sale and my opinion won't change one little bit, still will want for other players, who don't have the financial means to at least get the ability to grind and buff their favorite ship specs. Nothing bad about that.

 

@Sake78: Yes, sir, you shared a good point. If ship has an option of several different mounts / setups, why not make each setup good at something else. I get, what they're trying to do, just make the 155 mm as a shitty starter guns, through which you must grind to get the actual guns, but there's about a dozen of different and better ways to handle this, e.g. keeping the 155s long-range spammy thing, like Kutuzov and making the 203s close-range super-fast rotating and accurate guns or something similar.

 

Gosh, I really do like write a lot. But thanks for all the votes and comments. I'm still waiting for at least 1 post, which will bring a valid argument for the 0.5.3 nerfs, because in a certain way, everyone who posted more or less agreed with me and I agreed with them.

 

You guys rock.

 

Cheers,

~t3h'Pâr4d0x