On the survivabilty of classes

[Brett50]

Ok, so as it stands cruisers are by far the least survivable class in the game as they have huge, easy to pen citadels so they often get blown out of the water in one salvo by a battleship, as shown in the picture below (as we all know battleships go for cruisers first and cruisers have less range so have to get closer to do any damage). In this game xp earned is also based on what % damage you do to a target rather than raw damage dealt numbers, as such, I have a proposition. I believe that different classes should take different amounts of damage from a citadel hit, battleships should still take the full advertised amount from a citadel hit as they have larger health pools, are able to repair damage and are generally more difficult to citadel. I think cruisers should take 50% of the full damage for a citadel as proportionally they would lose a similar % of their hp as a battleship would lose from a citadel (but cruisers still get citadelled more easily so they would still be fragile) but this would allow a cruiser to make a mistake or two in a battle and still stand half a chance of surviving but it would eliminate those rediculous situations where the cruiser goes from full health to sinking in one salvo. This one may not be as popular but i think Destroyers should take 25% damage from a citadel hit (so about 1.2k from a cruiser and 3-4k from a high tier battleship as at the moment destroyers are one of the more survivable classes, all the shots that hit them overpen for minimal damage and the destroyer can just drop smoke or run away anyway (excluding detonations) I've never seen a destroyer killed in one salvo, this change would mean that destroyers would only be able to brawl against other destroyers as trying to brawl with a cruiser or the secondaries on a battleship isn't nearly as suicidal as it should be at the moment. Aircraft carriers i'd leave as they are as the whole point of them is to not get shot at anyway so once they're spotted they're dead regardless.

what are peoples thoughts on this?

 

 

 every cruiser captain knows this pain

 

[rafparis]

i had the same idea some time ago, cruisers should take 50 or 75 % of citadel damage instead of 100%. DDs don't have a citadel, and BBs take 100% since they have the most HP.

[Tyrendian89]

Cruisers, yes I'd second that. DDs, no - when a BB hits them at the right angle AP can still take full penetration damage (which is more than the 25% from a citadel you proposed btw, so yeah...)

[ColonelPete]

Sorry, the nine ships with the lowest survival rate are DD. Then come the first cruisers.

[Brett50]

well the main point of my post was about cruisers as they're the class that gets one-shotted most often and they don't have the benefit of stealth to protect them

[EsaTuunanen]

This one may not be as popular but i think Destroyers should take 25% damage from a citadel hit (so about 1.2k from a cruiser and 3-4k from a high tier battleship

Every big caliber AP overpen on destroyers already gives lot more guaranteed damage than they would have done in real life.

Unarmored "tinfoil" construction simply minimized damage of non exploding shells which didn't hit anything more solid or important.

 

And that change would just punish gunship DDs lot more than already over abundant IJN DDs.

[ammattimies]

I thought it at least used to be so that you can still do a "boiler room hit" on a DD, causing 50% of your shell damage. But it happens rarely as there is no actual citadel for your big-penetration shells to punch onto and explode

 

I like the idea of lowered cruiser citadel damage too, similarly to how DD's have it, because I think cruisers are in huge trouble right now with their usefulness...

[ColonelPete]

DDs detonate easily.

Smaller AP does good penetration damage and bigger guns use HE.

HE is more useful since you want to disable the engine and then the DD is dead.

[Hedgehog1963]

DDs detonate easily.

Smaller AP does good penetration damage and bigger guns use HE.

HE is more useful since you want to disable the engine and then the DD is dead.

 

"Last Stand" perk/skill will be second rank after the new patch.  Very useful for a DD.

[ColonelPete]

My gunboats need their turret traverse first.

[gronaAnkan]

I would probably like to see a separate damage class for "over penetrating citadel hit". A 40 cm hole through an engine block is bad, but it is not as bad as half a tonne of TNT exploding inside an engine  block.

[Hedgehog1963]

I played cruisers and DDs almost exclusively in CBT and early after release.  Then I bought the Iperator Nikolai, watched som You Tube Videos and started to pay Attention to the BB game.  With the exception of the Titpitz, which I put doewn to not having enough experience at the tier, my BBs in the Tiers up to 6are getting good results (62%WR in HMS Warspite across 66 games) and I'm rapidly of the opinion that I'd far rather be in either a DD or a BB than a cruiser, particularly at mid-tier.  CVs are big, easy to see and fragile compared to BBs.

[EsaTuunanen]

but it is not as bad as half a tonne of TNT exploding inside an engine  block.

Actually even HE(/HC) shells have explosive filler/bursting charge making only small part of shell weight because steel is dense and explosive not so dense.

Even Yamato's HE shell had lot less than 100kg of explosive. (actually less than US 16" HC shell)

 

[ghostbuster_]

i had the same idea some time ago, cruisers should take 50 or 75 % of citadel damage instead of 100%. DDs don't have a citadel, and BBs take 100% since they have the most HP.

 

Or cruisers should play smarter. the only advantage the BBs have is the gunfire.

[Demigur]

Sorry, the nine ships with the lowest survival rate are DD. Then come the first cruisers.

 

Sure, but you have a cloaking device on your DDs and if you get shot at, you did something wrong and if you did, you're so fast that hitting you at range is kinda tricky. You're not hiding a cruiser and the enemy sure as hell ain't missing you.

[ColonelPete]

 

Sure, but you have a cloaking device on your DDs and if you get shot at, you did something wrong and if you did, you're so fast that hitting you at range is kinda tricky. You're not hiding a cruiser and the enemy sure as hell ain't missing you.

 

If you die early in a cruiser, you did something wrong too.

[rafparis]

 

Or cruisers should play smarter. the only advantage the BBs have is the gunfire.

 

gunfire? And what about the armor, the HP pool, the better pen, and the repairs before tier 9?

BBs can do salvos of 30-40 k damage to CAs, CAs in return can be happy if they do 3-4 k per salvo on a BB...

[Myrmix]

Most of the citadels are their fault. A good cruiser-captain doesn't sail broadside to a BB and tries to keep cover between the enemy. It's far too often I see them driving in a straight line, even after they get 1-2 citadels.

If you use your maneuverability and quick turning, you can wiggle and avoid a lot of damage.

[BillydSquid]

Sorry, the nine ships with the lowest survival rate are DD. Then come the first cruisers.

 

And how much of that is due to bad players bum rushing the enemy and getting shot to pieces?

 

Quite a bit I'd imagine, we've all seen it, the DD which rushes the enemy squadron before trying to launch torpedoes, fires it's guns get's detected and then get's targeted and shot to pieces by half the CAs and BBs on the map. 

 

I think your problem isn't the DD being underpowered, your problem is you have a lot of new very aggressive bad captains whose only goal is to launch torpedoes and damn the consequences.

 

The best one's know when and when not to launch torps, and when to fire, when to switch off AA, when to run and how to use terrain. The shift in game meta now means every man and his dog uses a DD because the repair cost is significantly lower and the potential damage and return for hitting with torpedoes is significantly greater.

 

There's you're statistics for poor survival of DDs

[Ferry_25]

Nope. I'm a BB fan mostly. I see cruisers doing the same mistake over and over again: suicide runs forward. Trying to cap asap, regardless of the situation. The cruisers are support ships: Don't rush forward like the DD's (which is their role: scout and ambush). The fat ladies crawl in slowly but have devastating fire power. My advice is simple: stay in he middle of both shiptypes. he cruisers are the menace to DD's. Do devastating damage to them and are mavouvarable enough to dogde the torps in 90% of the cases. And when it's getting too hot (BB's coming your way): fall back and get behind the BB's! They can take the punishments and keep dealing massive dmg. Tank forward with the BB's untill you're in range and piss of the enemy BB's with your HE spam! Also you have the best AA answer, except for the CV fighters amaginable. And since CV's have been nerfed to almost extinction you are the best defense. If a friendly DD comes to you it means he's in troube with aircraft. And the BB's with their 60 tons fat bellies can't dogde the dropped torpedo's it's always nice if you in the cruiser can take out 90% of the airplatoon: better to take 1 torp than 5... Your role is support! Not to be in the front line battle, not to camp behind an island like a DD making an abmush. Remember 1 thing: keep turning and keep switching speeds! I know: you can still be one shot or almost completely crippled but you'll reduce those chances dramatically. A DD will whink twice before engaging a BB or another DD when covered by a cruiser. I know when driving a DD myself: a lone BB is a dead BB. I'll speedboost and go in a straight line towards him. 99% of the cases he misses with the main batteries and like you said: I'm rarely one shotted. The engine or rudder kill I'll repair instantly: the next main batttery shot takes 30 seconds. Enogh time for me getting close enough to plant 10 torps in is his side. Usually getting wrecked in the process but my DD is more expandable than the sheer firepower of the BB. I only wouldn't dream of that if that BB is screened by a cruiser. Even if it's 2 tiers lower than I am. Same goes for the friendly DD's and the CV's. I've never seen a DD attacking a CV which was covered by a cruiser... "Yeah Ferry. Very nice but I don't get any kills that way, whine whine whine." Steel kill! Let me shoot 90% of the HP in my BB and you finish the guy off. I don't care: winning the battle should be the main priority. Even with the most crap people think: you're a good player when you have the most kills! Hell! In the loading screen WG have given the most important hint: It's a team play! The cruiser must support: he's (she for that matter) is the Jack of all traids but master of none. IMO too many people stick with the idea of playing a cruiser as if they're still in the St Louis (which IMO is more a BB and was, as far as I know, also qualified as one). If you want to play a specific role: don't play the cruisers... IMO the BB's are the Mike Tysons (slow, can take a lot of hits but when he punches back: you're dead). THe DD's the Jet Li's (quick, agile and hard to hit. But if you hit them you hit them good. They can give that 1 devastating strike back but it's their only chance) and the cruisers are the Jason Stathems of this world. (right between former mentioned fighters).

[Brett50]

Nope. I'm a BB fan mostly. I see cruisers doing the same mistake over and over again: suicide runs forward. Trying to cap asap, regardless of the situation. The cruisers are support ships: Don't rush forward like the DD's (which is their role: scout and ambush). The fat ladies crawl in slowly but have devastating fire power. My advice is simple: stay in he middle of both shiptypes. he cruisers are the menace to DD's. Do devastating damage to them and are mavouvarable enough to dogde the torps in 90% of the cases. And when it's getting too hot (BB's coming your way): fall back and get behind the BB's! They can take the punishments and keep dealing massive dmg. Tank forward with the BB's untill you're in range and piss of the enemy BB's with your HE spam! Also you have the best AA answer, except for the CV fighters amaginable. And since CV's have been nerfed to almost extinction you are the best defense. If a friendly DD comes to you it means he's in troube with aircraft. And the BB's with their 60 tons fat bellies can't dogde the dropped torpedo's it's always nice if you in the cruiser can take out 90% of the airplatoon: better to take 1 torp than 5... Your role is support! Not to be in the front line battle, not to camp behind an island like a DD making an abmush. Remember 1 thing: keep turning and keep switching speeds! I know: you can still be one shot or almost completely crippled but you'll reduce those chances dramatically. A DD will whink twice before engaging a BB or another DD when covered by a cruiser. I know when driving a DD myself: a lone BB is a dead BB. I'll speedboost and go in a straight line towards him. 99% of the cases he misses with the main batteries and like you said: I'm rarely one shotted. The engine or rudder kill I'll repair instantly: the next main batttery shot takes 30 seconds. Enogh time for me getting close enough to plant 10 torps in is his side. Usually getting wrecked in the process but my DD is more expandable than the sheer firepower of the BB. I only wouldn't dream of that if that BB is screened by a cruiser. Even if it's 2 tiers lower than I am. Same goes for the friendly DD's and the CV's. I've never seen a DD attacking a CV which was covered by a cruiser... "Yeah Ferry. Very nice but I don't get any kills that way, whine whine whine." Steel kill! Let me shoot 90% of the HP in my BB and you finish the guy off. I don't care: winning the battle should be the main priority. Even with the most crap people think: you're a good player when you have the most kills! Hell! In the loading screen WG have given the most important hint: It's a team play! The cruiser must support: he's (she for that matter) is the Jack of all traids but master of none. IMO too many people stick with the idea of playing a cruiser as if they're still in the St Louis (which IMO is more a BB and was, as far as I know, also qualified as one). If you want to play a specific role: don't play the cruisers... IMO the BB's are the Mike Tysons (slow, can take a lot of hits but when he punches back: you're dead). THe DD's the Jet Li's (quick, agile and hard to hit. But if you hit them you hit them good. They can give that 1 devastating strike back but it's their only chance) and the cruisers are the Jason Stathems of this world. (right between former mentioned fighters).

 

that should work in theory but we all know that enemy BB's will 99% of the time fire over the BB's you're hiding behind as you're the squishy target that's easy to kill. I know i've had many situations where i have been right on the outer edge of a BB's range in my cruiser while he has had another battleship within 10km of him yet he'll still fire all the way out to me in the cruiser. regardless, what you're suggesting is to hide behind the battleships until they close within range

A: battleships usually just sit at the back firing at the limit of their range so you'd never get any damage done at all (which is being a hinderance to your team)

B: if your battleships do grow some balls and start pushing, you can guarantee the enemy battleships will just go for you first

 

so yeah, while it all sounds very good in practice, in the game it just doesn't work...

 

[Demigur]

 

If you die early in a cruiser, you did something wrong too.

 

Maybe but in no way does a cruiser have better survivability than a destroyer. Not being seen at all beats... whatever cruisers are supposed to have.

 

At highers tiers, all you do is camp right next to BBs and hope that your AI controlled AA shoots down enough planes.

[Kazomir]

Lets admit it, cruisers past tier 5 are no match for anything. BBs destroy them and DDs can avoid them far too easily while still spotting them and torpedoing them.

[ColonelPete]

 

Maybe but in no way does a cruiser have better survivability than a destroyer. Not being seen at all beats... whatever cruisers are supposed to have.

 

At highers tiers, all you do is camp right next to BBs and hope that your AI controlled AA shoots down enough planes.

 

You said what?

Player Average for Ships [ at 2016/02/06 ] EU Stats     Nation Class Tier Name Win Damage Kills/Battle Survival SN DD 3 Derzki 46.51 10918 0.53 12.60 SN DD 4 Izyaslav 46.78 14077 0.55 13.57 US DD 3 Wickes 48.09 13673 0.63 13.69 SN DD 2 Storozhevoi 44.66 7734 0.49 14.19 US DD 5 Nicholas 46.98 15843 0.57 14.56 US DD 4 Clemson 49.00 17064 0.68 15.12 US DD 2 Sampson 46.46 8285 0.50 16.08 US DD 6 Farragut 47.23 15362 0.53 17.34 SN DD 5 Gnevny 46.78 15910 0.57 17.62 US CA 7 Atlanta 46.10 18662 0.54 19.06 KM CA 4 Karlsruhe 47.41 16020 0.50 19.42

 

[Nethraniel]

As you can see in that table, only low tier gunboats with bad torpedo range and probably a lot of inexperienced players have low survivability, while IJN DD ar not even present in that bracket... so, yeah... guess that is not proof that DD have worse overall survivability...