Russian BB Novorrossysk (T6-7)

[Supersubway]

Here it is! The Italian Giulio Cesare in its latest glory! I understood this is coming this year

[JapLance]

Tier 7? Hardly a 5 I think.

[Supersubway]

It's got more armor, more guns and torpedoes vs T6 Warspite.

[JapLance]

It's got more armor, more guns and torpedoes vs T6 Warspite.

 

More armor? I really doubt it.

 

More guns, yes, but smaller (320mm vs 381mm)

 

Torpedoes... nope.

[Historynerd]

It's got more armor, more guns and torpedoes vs T6 Warspite.

 

Wait, what?

 

The Warspite trumps the Novorossyrsk with 330 mm belt armor, against a measly 250 mm (which was very low for a battleship); same thing for the deck armor.

 

The only thing about guns is the number of them, ten against eight; however, I have to say that I'll take Warspite's reliable and thoroughly good 15-inch Mark I against the 320 mm Model 1934 any day of the week. The latter perhaps didn't have such a horrible dispersion issue as it is commonly believed, true, but in terms of hitting power they were definitely outclassed; they were meant to be counters for the French 340 mm guns, and perhaps they would have been, but against the British gun there was no contest.

 

Both the modernized Warspite and the Novorossyrsk didn't have any torpedo tubes, so I don't understand what you're talking about here.

 

All in all, I'd make it a Tier 5, more or less. Nothing more.

[von_Boeg]

 I understood this is coming this year

 

Where did you get that from?

[Deamon93]

She's a tier V as said above. She is more comparable to Kongo: she is slower but with better protection and more guns(but smaller caliber). She could be a sort of hybrid between a proper BB and a proper BC(considering the current and potential tier V candidates)

[warspite666]

Is this the same giulio cesare warspite landed a 15 inch shell on at 26000 yards? fabulous, time for some historical re-enactment, oh wait a minute...... Anyway, nice to see an Italian ship coming into the game, if the this thread is true, even if it is under someone elses flag, Italy certainly built them beautiful ,and I have no doubt the wargaming team will do this beautiful warship justice graphically. I wonder if in the same vein we wil have a lend lease HMS Royal Sovereign ( arkangelsk ) in the soviet navy tree? that would be something too.

[Deamon93]

Yep is the same ship. I was thinking to have RN Giulio Cesare as premium since her sister has enough material for upgrades by herself. Technicallt would be possible considering there are three Omahas, two of which prerty much identical(there would be differences in this particular case at least). Sadly is too early to say since who knows when something Italian proper shows up

[Historynerd]

Right.

 

Besides, given that someone gives WG flak for how they handled the Kongo's various hull upgrades (which I did not quite follow, but it seems they jump from ship to ship), it might be possible that, for Tier 5, we could see a BB with the secondary and AA armament suite of the Cavour (the one she was supposed to get after her sinking, and that was never completed), since I think it's the most advanced and powerful suite that these ships ever boasted.

[Deamon93]

Right.

 

Besides, given that someone gives WG flak for how they handled the Kongo's various hull upgrades (which I did not quite follow, but it seems they jump from ship to ship), it might be possible that, for Tier 5, we could see a BB with the secondary and AA armament suite of the Cavour (the one she was supposed to get after her sinking, and that was never completed), since I think it's the most advanced and powerful suite that these ships ever boasted.

 

Well they could use RN Conte di Cavour only for the hull upgrades. The A hull would be the original post refit with the 13.2/76 MGs, the B hull with the 20/65s instead of the previously mounted MGs and then the post Taranto rebuilt for C hull. RN Giulio Cesare as premium would have the pre-Armistice form so similar to B hull but with slightly more AA. Of course those are just guesses ^^

[JapLance]

I bet the first hull will be the WWI version (like they did with Kongo and Fuso), second the 1937 reconstruction, and a possible 3rd hull with the intended improved AA of Cavour.

[Historynerd]

 

Well they could use RN Conte di Cavour only for the hull upgrades. The A hull would be the original post refit with the 13.2/76 MGs, the B hull with the 20/65s instead of the previously mounted MGs and then the post Taranto rebuilt for C hull. RN Giulio Cesare as premium would have the pre-Armistice form so similar to B hull but with slightly more AA. Of course those are just guesses ^^

 

Thus leaving either the Duilio and/or the Andrea Doria in their original form as Tier 4 BBs. It might work.

 

Although I have to admit I am a little partial to their rebuilt forms, so I'd prefer if we had them. 

[Deamon93]

I bet the first hull will be the WWI version (like they did with Kongo and Fuso), second the 1940 version, and a possible 3rd hull with the intended improved AA of Cavour.

Kongo and Fuso changed but only 30/35% of the original Conte di Cavour and Giulio Cesare remained after the "refit" so they are pretty much a different ship from the previous WWI forms(same goes for their cousins of the Caio Duilio-class).

 

 

Thus leaving either the Duilio and/or the Andrea Doria in their original form as Tier 4 BBs. It might work.

 

Although I have to admit I am a little partial to their rebuilt forms, so I'd prefer if we had them. 

 

I was still considering having the two in parallel. Granted the fact they are so similar is problematic but also an advantage: you could have two ships at the cost of one

[Historynerd]

I was still considering having the two in parallel. Granted the fact they are so similar is problematic but also an advantage: you could have two ships at the cost of one

 

Well, it depends on many factors; for example, as it currently is the thirteen 305 mm rifles of both seem rather powerful at Tier IV (even though they pay for it with weakish armor, although not as much as the Myogi), so we have to see if for balance purposes it's better the weaker secondary armament of the Cavour-class. It's pretty much the only notable difference between the unrebuilt classes.

[Deamon93]

 

Well, it depends on many factors; for example, as it currently is the thirteen 305 mm rifles of both seem rather powerful at Tier IV (even though they pay for it with weakish armor, although not as much as the Myogi), so we have to see if for balance purposes it's better the weaker secondary armament of the Cavour-class. It's pretty much the only notable difference between the unrebuilt classes.

 

Well the secondary armament comes into play only if the target is close enough. Still the 13x12" is powerful but the protection isn't that great and the citadel may also be fairly big due to having the armament spread out all along the ship(maybe not to the extent of Wyoming thanks to the unique 3 2 3 2 3 layout but almost).

[Historynerd]

 

Well the secondary armament comes into play only if the target is close enough. Still the 13x12" is powerful but the protection isn't that great and the citadel may also be fairly big due to having the armament spread out all along the ship(maybe not to the extent of Wyoming thanks to the unique 3 2 3 2 3 layout but almost).

 

Yes, I know the protection is hardly strong and the citadel is quite huge, but as you already pointed out Wyoming isn't exactly great in that respect, either. 

 

Moreover, in Wyoming and Arkansas when you turn the turrets to face an enemy on the opposite side of the one you were fighting before (if you hadn't time to turn the turrets beforehand), at first you can bring to bear only four barrels (either the foremost of aftmost turrets, depending on the case); with the Cavour, you can bring one more (since it's one triple and one double turret, instead of two doubles).

It doesn't mean that much, but if you're in a tight spot I think being able to return fire with one more gun is better than nothing.

 

Now that I think about it (given that sometimes someone suggests it as a Tier 4 premium), HMS Agincourt would be even worse in terms of armor thickness and citadel size, all for just one more 305 mm gun! 

[Deamon93]

 

Yes, I know the protection is hardly strong and the citadel is quite huge, but as you already pointed out Wyoming isn't exactly great in that respect, either. 

 

Moreover, in Wyoming and Arkansas when you turn the turrets to face an enemy on the opposite side of the one you were fighting before (if you hadn't time to turn the turrets beforehand), at first you can bring to bear only four barrels (either the foremost of aftmost turrets, depending on the case); with the Cavour, you can bring one more (since it's one triple and one double turret, instead of two doubles).

It doesn't mean that much, but if you're in a tight spot I think being able to return fire with one more gun is better than nothing.

 

Now that I think about it (given that sometimes someone suggests it as a Tier 4 premium), HMS Agincourt would be even worse in terms of armor thickness and citadel size, all for just one more 305 mm gun! 

 

All the dakka comes at a cost

[Historynerd]

 

All the dakka comes at a cost

 

Right...

 

 

XD XD XD

 

But if the Agincourt comes, it'll sure be interesting to face her.

 

Now, back on track.

Perhaps WG could find something more precise about the modifications done to the Novorossyrsk; there are rumours about radars and stuff, but nothing certain. And then, is there any chance she'll appear with the planned 305 mm guns, instead of the Italian 320 mm ones? 

[Deamon93]

 

Right...

 

 

XD XD XD

 

But if the Agincourt comes, it'll sure be interesting to face her.

 

Now, back on track.

Perhaps WG could find something more precise about the modifications done to the Novorossyrsk; there are rumours about radars and stuff, but nothing certain. And then, is there any chance she'll appear with the planned 305 mm guns, instead of the Italian 320 mm ones? 

 

I'm sure they'll have access to what they changed to the original ship after they got her, at least I think there should be something in the archives.

[BelRiose]

 

More armor? I really doubt it.

 

More guns, yes, but smaller (320mm vs 381mm)

 

Torpedoes... nope.

 

Speed & engine HP ...almost as fast as a Kongo, more a Battlecruiser than a Battleship after works in 1937...

 

[BelRiose]

 

Wait, what?

 

The Warspite trumps the Novorossyrsk with 330 mm belt armor, against a measly 250 mm (which was very low for a battleship); same thing for the deck armor.

 

The only thing about guns is the number of them, ten against eight; however, I have to say that I'll take Warspite's reliable and thoroughly good 15-inch Mark I against the 320 mm Model 1934 any day of the week. The latter perhaps didn't have such a horrible dispersion issue as it is commonly believed, true, but in terms of hitting power they were definitely outclassed; they were meant to be counters for the French 340 mm guns, and perhaps they would have been, but against the British gun there was no contest.

 

Both the modernized Warspite and the Novorossyrsk didn't have any torpedo tubes, so I don't understand what you're talking about here.

 

All in all, I'd make it a Tier 5, more or less. Nothing more.

 

Warspite: 75.000 hp 24 knots  Giulio Cesare/Novossijrsk 93.000 hp 28 knots... in 1937 they fit a whole new engine

EDIT: Warspite: 80.000 hp 23 knots...

[Historynerd]

Warspite: 75.000 hp 24 knots  Giulio Cesare/Novossijrsk 93.000 hp 28 knots... in 1937 they fit a whole new engine

 

I know that; my issue was with OP's statement that it had "more guns, armor and torpedoes". Her higher speed was not in question.

 

In any case, IRL (and to a degree in game) speed is overrated when you have to stand and fight. It's useful to deploy faster, to take advantage of a breakthrough or to plug an enemy attack, but when you are exchanging broadsides with an enemy BB it's not going to be a big help.

Therefore, in my opinion her better top speed does not even warrant a place in the same tier as the Warspite, since even when fully upgraded she is outmatched in every other aspect.

[JapLance]

 

Speed & engine HP ...almost as fast as a Kongo, more a Battlecruiser than a Battleship after works in 1937...

 

 

If your point is that because of the almost same speed (not even faster) of a tier 5 the OP is right...

 

Kongo is faster than Yamato... let's make it a tier 11 then?

[BelRiose]

 

If your point is that because of the almost same speed (not even faster) of a tier 5 the OP is right...

 

Kongo is faster than Yamato... let's make it a tier 11 then?

 

were I say this?

I only show one of the differences...

Tipical of post WW1 designs was the increased speed: nobody built battle-cruisers anymore, battleshipe where usually as fast a as battlecruiser... Yamato was a fast BB anyway, 27 knots! Fuso was considered very slow in WW2, for example...