mirrored MM

[anonym_hqO9wrVAEQYQ]

So all the whinners are getting their way.

 In addition, following your feedback, we have implemented the nation algorithm in the matchmaker. It will seek to place ships of one nation evenly throughout the teams, unless this impairs the balance. For example, if there are two Japanese Hatsuharu destroyers and two Soviet Kiev destroyers, the algorithm will seek to place one ship of each nation in every team.

 

Yawn.

[Panocek]

So all the whinners are getting their way.

 

Yawn.

 

So you enjoy when MM stacks all the Shimakazes in one team?

[Hanszeehock]

 

So you enjoy when MM stacks all the Shimakazes in one team?

 

Exactly this. Or one team gets two Yamatos the other an Iowa.............

[Spithas]

 

So you enjoy when MM stacks all the Shimakazes in one team?

 

Must be the only way he can win...

[RamirezKurita]

 

So you enjoy when MM stacks all the Shimakazes in one team?

 

I'd rather if they actually fixed balance issues rather than tried to minimise how much damage the imbalances cause. Forcing this kind of mirroring is basically just them admitting that they have no idea how to even begin balancing it, so they are trying to do some emergency damage control rather than do things properly.

[mtm78]

 

I'd rather if they actually fixed balance issues rather than tried to minimise how much damage the imbalances cause. Forcing this kind of mirroring is basically just them admitting that they have no idea how to even begin balancing it, so they are trying to do some emergency damage control rather than do things properly.

 

....  read below quote again.

 

 

Exactly this. Or one team gets two Yamatos the other an Iowa.............

 

Yes, because you can balance a Yamato vs an Iowa since .... ow wait, you can't. 

 

 In addition, following your feedback, we have implemented the nation algorithm in the matchmaker. It will seek to place ships of one nation evenly throughout the teams, unless this impairs the balance. For example, if there are two Japanese Hatsuharu destroyers and two Soviet Kiev destroyers, the algorithm will seek to place one ship of each nation in every team.

 

So all the whinners are getting their way.

 

Yawn.

 

The problem is that while two gunboat DD's are perfectly capable of pushing into caps being contested by stealth DD's and lighting them up for their team's cruisers which should then assist in killing them ( and basically winning the game right then and there ), in effect you get gun boat captains 'sticking with the battleships' and not doing their job. 

 

In order to offset offset matchmaking, you need teamwork and skill. It sucks when your team's only DD capable of flushing out a pair of enemy Kageroo's,suicides doing something entirely stupid leaving your team at such a disadvantage that the match felt lost 3 minutes in ( or sooner, when you realize your Benson is not responding to chat or map pings and rather charges into a group of battleships escorted by cruisers ).

 

With a more ( but not completely! ) balanced distribution for random games it's going to be less frequent that a match is lost or won 2 minutes in. 

[anonym_hqO9wrVAEQYQ]

 

Must be the only way he can win...

No mate. I don't honestly care if I lose if it's a good match. Some of the most fun matches I have been have totally imbalanced due to stacks of divisions or ship types. But due to the constant "The mm sucks moaning"  we will have equal teams. So explain again how this gives any variation to this game.  

[RamirezKurita]

Yes, because you can balance a Yamato vs an Iowa since .... ow wait, you can't. 

 

An Iowa isn't meant to be an equal of the Yamato, they are completely different tiers so obviously the T10 will have the advantage over the T9. A fairer comparison would be an Iowa vs an Izumo or a Yamato vs a Montana.

 

Also, there are always a variety of tiers within a team, so as long as the matchmaker keeps a reasonable amount of similarity on the tier ratios it should work out, as for every T9 BB vs a T10 BB, there will be a T10 CA or DD vs a T9 CA or DD to balance it out. Even if you are in a relatively low tier ship and are outmatched by the enemy ships of the same class, remember that the rest of your team will be more powerful to make up for it, so you won't be expected to have as significant impact on the game than if your were top tier for the game. The real problems occur when ships in general don't have the tools to deal with asymmetric distributions (like the current issues, as the biggest counters to DDs are other DDs), when certain ship types scale poorly or when individual ships are poorly balanced for their tier.

[mtm78]

 

An Iowa isn't meant to be an equal of the Yamato, they are completely different tiers so obviously the T10 will have the advantage over the T9. A fairer comparison would be an Iowa vs an Izumo or a Yamato vs a Montana.

 

Also, there are always a variety of tiers within a team, so as long as the matchmaker keeps a reasonable amount of similarity on the tier ratios it should work out, as for every T9 BB vs a T10 BB, there will be a T10 CA or DD vs a T9 CA or DD to balance it out. Even if you are in a relatively low tier ship and are outmatched by the enemy ships of the same class, remember that the rest of your team will be more powerful to make up for it, so you won't be expected to have as significant impact on the game than if your were top tier for the game. The real problems occur when ships in general don't have the tools to deal with asymmetric distributions (like the current issues, as the biggest counters to DDs are other DDs), when certain ship types scale poorly or when individual ships are poorly balanced for their tier.

 

So basically you agree with my above post? 

[RamirezKurita]

 

So basically you agree with my above post? 

 

No, because the whole thread is about the mirroring going beyond the tiers and actively trying to make the two teams identical in terms of composition, not simply equal in terms of power and effectiveness. I'm all for balancing the tiers between teams, as they are fundamentally the main measure of relative power of a ship, however the MM should not try to fiddle further than tiers, because if the tier system and the balance team are doing their job properly then two teams of identical tier compositions should in theory be equal in power, regardless of their class or national compositions.

 

Ideally, once the game gets balanced properly (which really should have been done back in one of the Betas), it should be easy to have games where teams are different but equal, where teams can adopt very different strategies depending on their compositions and the enemy team's compositions; however mirrored matchmaking like what is currently being suggested prevents having teams that are different, forcing equality by having almost identical teams, which is both bad for balancing (as it means the problem gets hidden away rather than fixed) as well as being really bad from a strategic perspective as it will remove the need for unique strategies in special case scenarios.

[mtm78]

So you still think random teams consisting of gun boat DD's vs stealth DD's is fine? Guess we don't agree at all then

[anonym_EFwxJOPWzlER]

I certainly think mirrored MM in ranked is absolutely vital, at present it is a shambles, but i don't think mirrored MM should be in random

 

In ranked, mirrored MM will sort out the best from the rest

 

At present it's easy when you have 3 Benson against 3 Fubuki, total miss match

 

 

[RamirezKurita]

So you still think random teams consisting of gun boat DD's vs stealth DD's is fine? Guess we don't agree at all then

 

Right now it is not fine, across almost all tiers I would rather be on the team with the more torpedo boats than the one without, but that's because of the current balance problems in the game rather than because it is a fundamental problem. The current issues need to be fixed properly through balance fixes and changes to gameplay mechanics, rather than resorting to forcing imbalance on both teams to disguise the problem.

 

The problems with torpedo boat destroyers is that, other than with the help of CVs (which only appear when the stars align these days), the only reliable way to hunt them down is in something equally stealthy, such as another high stealth, torpedo-laden IJN DD. If ships other than IJN DDs had methods of dealing with them, then the problem would be far more manageable, particularly as the meta can adapt to lessen the impact of the problem, but as IJN DDs counter themselves the meta instead responds by more people playing as IJN DDs and thereby becoming part of the problem rather than the solution.

 

The previously mentioned lack of CVs also is indirectly causing problems for USN DDs, as having lots of AA is very much their speciality compared to the IJN's torps and the SN's main battery, so obviously they will be underperforming at the moment and will likely continue to underperform until carriers get fixed properly.

[Panocek]

 

The previously mentioned lack of CVs also is indirectly causing problems for USN DDs, as having lots of AA is very much their speciality compared to the IJN's torps and the SN's main battery, so obviously they will be underperforming at the moment and will likely continue to underperform until carriers get fixed properly.

 

"lots of AA" - nope. AA dps isn't much better against other DDs and from tier 7 onwards its not enough to fend off planes off your arse. Only point for those C hull upgrades is AA barrage skill, which can be used to scattering torpedo runs at best

 

Bigger issue for USN is derpy shell velocity/trajectory than lack of carriers to pew pew at.

[mtm78]

 

Right now it is not fine, across almost all tiers I would rather be on the team with the more torpedo boats than the one without, but that's because of the current balance problems in the game rather than because it is a fundamental problem. The current issues need to be fixed properly through balance fixes and changes to gameplay mechanics, rather than resorting to forcing imbalance on both teams to disguise the problem.

 

The problems with torpedo boat destroyers is that, other than with the help of CVs (which only appear when the stars align these days), the only reliable way to hunt them down is in something equally stealthy, such as another high stealth, torpedo-laden IJN DD. If ships other than IJN DDs had methods of dealing with them, then the problem would be far more manageable, particularly as the meta can adapt to lessen the impact of the problem, but as IJN DDs counter themselves the meta instead responds by more people playing as IJN DDs and thereby becoming part of the problem rather than the solution.

 

The previously mentioned lack of CVs also is indirectly causing problems for USN DDs, as having lots of AA is very much their speciality compared to the IJN's torps and the SN's main battery, so obviously they will be underperforming at the moment and will likely continue to underperform until carriers get fixed properly.

 

I already gave an example you seem to ignore or miss;

 

domination mode 3 caps - 3 stealth DD's vs 2 Gun Boat DD's. Still, the team with the gun boat DD's can win through team work and proper utilization of each of their classes/ships. The gun boat DD's should push the stealth boat dd's with cruisers closely behind and flush out the stealth dd's which then need to be killed with the assistance of the close bye cruisers.

 

These games are actually fun, because teamwork equals great fun. But when your gun boat DD's are tactically stupid and do the wrong thing, the game is lost. 

 

This has nothing to do with balancing gun boat and stealth boat dd's against each other. You simply can not balance them that way without turning them into carbon copies with slight variations. So, if you can't balance the two type's of DD's against each other, and you can't FORCE people to play their ships in the way they're supposed to, the only viable option is to create teams with a more equal amount of ship type's. 

 

Because, that way, 10 people won't be shaften if their 2 players who are crucial to their team's victory are not doing what they are supposed to be doing. Because of the more even teams, the impact of players not doing what they should be doing is strategically/tactically much less of a burden. 

[Panocek]

 

I already gave an example you seem to ignore or miss;

 

domination mode 3 caps - 3 stealth DD's vs 2 Gun Boat DD's. Still, the team with the gun boat DD's can win through team work and proper utilization of each of their classes/ships. The gun boat DD's should push the stealth boat dd's with cruisers closely behind and flush out the stealth dd's which then need to be killed with the assistance of the close bye cruisers.

 

These games are actually fun, because teamwork equals great fun. But when your gun boat DD's are tactically stupid and do the wrong thing, the game is lost. 

 

This has nothing to do with balancing gun boat and stealth boat dd's against each other. You simply can not balance them that way without turning them into carbon copies with slight variations. So, if you can't balance the two type's of DD's against each other, and you can't FORCE people to play their ships in the way they're supposed to, the only viable option is to create teams with a more equal amount of ship type's. 

 

Because, that way, 10 people won't be shaften if their 2 players who are crucial to their team's victory are not doing what they are supposed to be doing. Because of the more even teams, the impact of players not doing what they should be doing is strategically/tactically much less of a burden. 

 

Gunboats press into cap with cruiser help - all nice and dandy until torpboats have BB backup...

[mtm78]

 

Gunboats press into cap with cruiser help - all nice and dandy until torpboats have BB backup...

 

And close behind the gunboat DD's are their cruisers, and behind them are your allied BB's 

 

Sure, stealth DD's will have the advantage and given entirely equal skill distribution their team is most likely to win the engagement/game. But it is the only current way to win that matchup when you got the team with gun boat DD's. 

 

And exactly to counter that, WG is going to make better matched teams. 

 

Really, you just argued against your own case 

 

edit:  I think.. 

 

 

[Spithas]

Any Team regardles of composition can win mtm78.

 

That is besides the point. The point is that if DDs are not balanced between the teams then one team has a clear advantage, which should not be the case.

[mtm78]

Any Team regardles of composition can win mtm78.

 

That is besides the point. The point is that if DDs are not balanced between the teams then one team has a clear advantage, which should not be the case.

 

Yes but the greater the disparity between teams the more teamwork is required to win. Which is fun, if it happens, and utterly frustrating when it doesn't.

 

I think a better distribution of Benson vs Mutsuki's in random teams is not that bad, given that WG has no way to influence the amount of teamwork in randoms this is the next best thing imo.

[RamirezKurita]

 

And close behind the gunboat DD's are their cruisers, and behind them are your allied BB's 

 

Sure, stealth DD's will have the advantage and given entirely equal skill distribution their team is most likely to win the engagement/game. But it is the only current way to win that matchup when you got the team with gun boat DD's. 

 

And exactly to counter that, WG is going to make better matched teams. 

 

But forcing matched teams is not fixing the problem, it is simply attempting to conceal it. If stealth torp DDs are overperforming, then the answer is either to create more and better solutions to them (I have suggested in threads before that spotter planes have a lot of untapped potential in this regard and the Hydroacoustic Search needs some pretty massive buffs to even be considered over AA Defensive Fire, even with carriers being an endangered species on most tiers) or instead to nerf the torp boats them to bring the back in line, either way would work to solve the IJN DD problem (although if implemented poorly could cause balance issues elsewhere, so obviously everything would have to be thought out properly before things are implemented). Forcing brokenness on both teams does not stop something being broken in the first place, we should be able to deal with them rather than be forced to have them.

[Spithas]

 

Yes but the greater the disparity between teams the more teamwork is required to win. Which is fun, if it happens, and utterly frustrating when it doesn't.

 

I think a better distribution of Benson vs Mutsuki's in random teams is not that bad, given that WG has no way to influence the amount of teamwork in randoms this is the next best thing imo.

 

It's not fun because in randoms it doesn't happen. Which is why we are getting a separated TEAM BATTLE mode where teams are not matched based of setup and you can make up for the disparities with teamplay. Random MM should be as balanced in ships as possible.

[Spithas]

 

But forcing matched teams is not fixing the problem, it is simply attempting to conceal it. If stealth torp DDs are overperforming, then the answer is either to create more and better solutions to them (I have suggested in threads before that spotter planes have a lot of untapped potential in this regard and the Hydroacoustic Search needs some pretty massive buffs to even be considered over AA Defensive Fire, even with carriers being an endangered species on most tiers) or instead to nerf the torp boats them to bring the back in line, either way would work to solve the IJN DD problem (although if implemented poorly could cause balance issues elsewhere, so obviously everything would have to be thought out properly before things are implemented). Forcing brokenness on both teams does not stop something being broken in the first place, we should be able to deal with them rather than be forced to have them.

 

It absolutely fixes it. In World of Tanks light tanks (which provide a lot of spotting) are crucial to the team. MM used to be like in WoWs and didn't balance them between the teams until Wargaming realized that if you give each team the same number of lights the problem will be fixed... and it they were right.

[mtm78]

 

It's not fun because in randoms it doesn't happen. Which is why we are getting a separated TEAM BATTLE mode where teams are not matched based of setup and you can make up for the disparities with teamplay. Random MM should be as balanced in ships as possible.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

 

[Panocek]

Panocek, on 02 February 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

 

Gunboats press into cap with cruiser help - all nice and dandy until torpboats have BB backup...

 

And close behind the gunboat DD's are their cruisers, and behind them are your allied BB's 

 

Sure, stealth DD's will have the advantage and given entirely equal skill distribution their team is most likely to win the engagement/game. But it is the only current way to win that matchup when you got the team with gun boat DD's. 

 

And exactly to counter that, WG is going to make better matched teams. 

 

Really, you just argued against your own case 

 

edit:  I think.. 

 

 

 

When lets say 3x torpboat and 3x BB meets up 2x gunboat, 2x cruiser and 2x BB on a cap, I don't think latter team will win

[anonym_EFwxJOPWzlER]

 

When lets say 3x torpboat and 3x BB meets up 2x gunboat, 2x cruiser and 2x BB on a cap, I don't think latter team will win

 

I don't think i have ever seen this many ships on a cap, so unrealistic