The T10 Cruiser Aggression series - Featuring aggressive gameplay from Des Moines, Hindenburg and Zao.

[Pupu_prpr]

My 3 part series showing just how potent every single T10 Cruiser can be, using my usual hyper-aggressive playstyle to showcase the strengths of each ship.

 

Zao gameplay.

 

 

Hindenburg gameplay.

 

 

Des Moines gameplay.

 

[SR_FRIOL]

let me guess.. every body now is going to bring back their DesMoines..

[Pupu_prpr]

Dunno, people seem to always say I get lucky when I post DM or Hindenburg commentaries, refusing to accept the strength of the ships. I average well over 100k consistently on both ships, I must get really lucky ;)

[Kazomir]

Dunno, people seem to always say I get lucky when I post DM or Hindenburg commentaries, refusing to accept the strength of the ships. I average well over 100k consistently on both ships, I must get really lucky ;)

 

Or, you might just be a good player, dunno.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Or, you are posting vids when you faceroll over tier VIII's? [edit] at least for the Des video, don't have Hindi or Zao, so I won't comment on that vids. 

[Pupu_prpr]

^ Case in point. In the DM vid I spend the majority of the game actually fighting Zao's, yet apparently it's facerolling T8's

 

People have become so convinced about their opinion on the ships that they refuse to budge on it now, it's a shame.

[SR_FRIOL]

^ Case in point. In the DM vid I spend the majority of the game actually fighting Zao's, yet apparently it's facerolling T8's

 

People have become so convinced about their opinion on the ships that they refuse to budge on it now, it's a shame.

 

Its Funny because many of them are using Zao's because you had such a good videos the last 3-4 months and you convinced them that IS THE BEST tier10 cruiser in the game. Now That you having more vids from the other ships I am sure I will see al lot of changes.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

 ^ Case in point. In the DM vid I spend the majority of the game actually fighting Zao's, yet apparently it's facerolling T8's

Except, the Zao encounter happened at the beginning of the game and resulted in how much damage? 10k? Later you popped on another Zao, which, kudos to you, was sent to bottom very fast (although he was engaged in a fight against a DD). Then it was Atago, NC, and another Atago - which formed majority of your damage.

And, if you actually bothered to read my comments in your other section - vids you posted are ok, but you show Des fighting cruisers, and 90% of the time they're lower tier cruisers, in games when you don't have 3 Yamatos and 2 Montanas with a Tirpitz to boot teams.. Des murders them, and I always said exactly that. Also, I said that recently we're experiencing a meta-shift - due to high DD numbers, BB's are dropping. So, MM will fill the hole with CA's, and usually they're Atagos. This helps Des greatly, and high tier CA's in general, cause CA vs CA gameplay is actually pretty balanced.

What I dislike about your vids, is that you draw a conclusion here. Since I do a lot of damage to my opponents - this ship must be great! But, I'd love to see how would you fare in Des pre 5.1, when MM was full of BB's, and what would be your evaluation of the ship performance then. 

[Pupu_prpr]

I haven't really had much issues with games with a lot of Montys or Yamatos, usually ends up as a statpadding fest. Angle away from them and sit at max range and spam HE, much like with the Zao. Even the DM arcs can reliably land shells on T10 BBs. You can invisifire almost as well on a DM as you can on a Zao.

 

Also I never draw conclusions based on one game, I draw my conclusions of a ship based on multiple games, then select a game that highlights my points to serve as a video.

 

No idea how people still mix these two up.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Aight mate, whatever floats your boat! Hope to see you soon on a battlefield

 

[__Katniss__]

Dunno, people seem to always say I get lucky when I post DM or Hindenburg commentaries, refusing to accept the strength of the ships. I average well over 100k consistently on both ships, I must get really lucky ;)

 

Hindenburg has hard times in tier 10 matches. His HE are useless and players on that tier mostly know how to avoid his AP spamm. I love Roon gameplay and i think its the best tier 9 even more funnier than BBs. But yeah, i played only few games with Hindenburg still trying to find the best way to use his potential. Is it Desmoines worth to grind ? On few maps his bad fire range and slow shells must be really frustrating. 

[MMKing93]

^ Case in point. In the DM vid I spend the majority of the game actually fighting Zao's, yet apparently it's facerolling T8's

 

People have become so convinced about their opinion on the ships that they refuse to budge on it now, it's a shame.

 

The problem with the Des Moines and the gun upgraded Baltimore, using the ''super heavy'' 152KG AP shells is the detect range, compared to effective firing range. At 15KM, you can indeed wreck a Zao or a Hindenburg sailing in a straight line, and i have myself hit Battleship deck armor at 17-18KM causing citadel penetration. But versus a skilled opponent, you're not gonna win at 12KM+ and at 15KM+ it's near impossible to cause significant damage. Only at 10KM and bellow can you really get to work on anything and anyone within range, this is further reinforced by the fact that your front 6 guns have more firepower than all the guns on the Zao, and only slightly lower fire rate than all the guns on the Hindenburg.

 

However, throw an Aircraft carrier or a few Destroyers into the match, and more often than not you're gonna be forced into a fire fight at above the dreaded 12KM mark. Even a regular scout fighter can cause serious problems, as more often than not there is one within the increased detect range caused by firing your guns, so you cannot sit behind an island without response from the enemy team. A skilled player however, works around the weaknesses, but i don't believe for a single second that you have never gotten into a horrible situation and caused minimal damage before sinking to no fault of your own. Because the Zao and the Hindenburg thrive on long range engagements, short range situations with ships like the Des Moines are easy to avoid until the end of the match.

[Pajosaurus]

Just went over to warshipstats to check out Flamu's record on Des Moines: 43 battles, 77% win rate, 105,000 average damage. 

 

I'd say he knows what he's talking about.

 

 

[Mucalist]

I haven't really had much issues with games with a lot of Montys or Yamatos, usually ends up as a statpadding fest. Angle away from them and sit at max range and spam HE, much like with the Zao. Even the DM arcs can reliably land shells on T10 BBs. You can invisifire almost as well on a DM as you can on a Zao.

 

Also I never draw conclusions based on one game, I draw my conclusions of a ship based on multiple games, then select a game that highlights my points to serve as a video.

 

No idea how people still mix these two up.

 

Flamu you are a very good player and a pleasure to watch. I think you just like the play style of the Des Moines. 

In my opinion Des Moines is a very situational ship. It is strong against low tier Cruiser and maps with a lot of cover.

 

What pros does DM have against the other two Cruisers?

- ROF (with the least guns, by far the worst arc and worst AP)

- low DPM high range AA

 

In every other way DM is the worst ship except rudder shift time where it is better than Hindenburg.

 

In your video you played against 2 tier 8 "bots" (<45% win rate, NC was stock) and the Zao player was an average Joe who did a huge misplay (he had 3 choices, he took the worst one). I also have such games but that doesn't mean DM is as good as Zao.

 

Hindenburg and Des Moines are even I think with cons and pros. Zao is at least 1 tier higher. You are the best DM player with 105k avg dmg. The best Zao player according to warshipstats has 135k.

If we look at the newest stats DM is the least played tier 10 ship after Khaba.

 

Tier 10 ships should be fun and not frustrating. DM is often frustrating, it depends which map is played and how many tier 10 ships are in the game. In WoT all Tier 10 ships are fun and balanced quite good. This is what I expected in WOWS.

How to balance Hindenburg and DM to the level of Zao? It is quite easy. DM should get faster shells and Hindenburg a buff to rudder shift + a small buff to HE.

Would they lose their identity? I dont think so.

 

To be fair, DM is better than any tier 9 Cruiser.

 

 

 

[Spithas]

 

What pros does DM have against the other two Cruisers?

- ROF (with the least guns, by far the worst arc and worst AP)

 

 

Uhm... best AP penetration wise.

[Panocek]

 

Uhm... best AP penetration wise.

 

Neutered by shell trajectory...

[Spithas]

 

Neutered by shell trajectory...

 

Vs BBs (long range) the trajectory is more of a bonus. Gets more AP shots on deck.

 

Vs Cruisers the moments that it really matters is at close ranges so again trajectory doesn't neuter it.

[Panocek]

 

Vs BBs (long range) the trajectory is more of a bonus. Gets more AP shots on deck.

 

Vs Cruisers the moments that it really matters is at close ranges so again trajectory doesn't neuter it.

 

Angled Zao, or even Atago shrug off 203 AP just fine so that magic penetration doesn't make USN AP shells as effective as you might think.

And past 14km, when plunging fire starts you would be surprised how hard can be to hit and do damage against BB skipper skilled enough to press WSAD here and there

[Spithas]

 

Angled Zao, or even Atago shrug off 203 AP just fine so that magic penetration doesn't make USN AP shells as effective as you might think.

And past 14km, when plunging fire starts you would be surprised how hard can be to hit and do damage against BB skipper skilled enough to press WSAD here and there

 

Oh i know. But at least the Des Moines has effective HE and a very high ROF, which allow the quick switch to AP when you see a turn coming up.

 

That's also true. However it is describing a 1 v 1 situation. In the top tier battles most BBs are not weaving at high speeds since that is a quick way of ending up getting citadeled by the enemy BBs or Torped.

 

Yes a BB that doesn't have to worry about enemy BB fire or DDs will have the luxury of maneuvering to dodge shells but these cases are few and far between.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

 In your video you played against 2 tier 8 "bots" (<45% win rate, NC was stock) and the Zao player was an average Joe who did a huge misplay (he had 3 choices, he took the worst one). I also have such games but that doesn't mean DM is as good as Zao.

Yorck fighting vs 2 Furutakas with 45% win rate win? Yorck is amazing! 

 

 You are the best DM player with 105k avg dmg

I disagree. Sander93 is the best DM player. He hitted amazing results when the meta was full of BB's. Rest of his US CA's have also the best results. I mean, his Baltimore and NO are putting me to shame. 

I have 363 games played with Des, 91k average, 60% WR and I hold the global record for the best exp and damage on this ship. I played Des from beginning of OBT till now. And believe me, no ships is so prone to metashift as this vessel.

Des is great when he can fight CA's. He is a god damn beast when you catch Zao or Hindi at 11 km or below. Sheer DPS and potential to explode your opponent with multiple citadel hits make it a monster. But, you need to take a lot of risks to put yourself in that situation. And you are also at the mercy of spotting mechanic. Zao can dish his damage from 16 km away with no problems. Des, having low shell speed, as well as high arc, means it's much harder to hit anything once shells begin to take this high arc. Zao's shell travel at much steeper angle, so it's much easier to hit superstructure - Des either hits most of it salvoe, or you miss completely. 

But, to sum it up, Des doesn't need buff as such right now. Whole meta is in some weird spot right now, which kinda suits Des, but hinders the overall gameplay. But if meta shifts, and BB's will return, and MM will not be clogged with tier VIII CA's, but tier IX and X + BB's - Des will fall off and we will come to point zero.

[Sander93]

Looking at your Des Moines video made me so jealous, whenever I try sailing straight at battleships they suddenly get great dispersion and usually citadel me frontally with every salvo. Haven't really played a lot of Des Moines lately ever since I'm stationed at an army base during the week. The few games I play during the weekends I usually spend grinding for the Yamato and playing with my all time favorite Iowa. 

 

It's interesting to see a different tactic. I usually resort to using the Des Moines' firing arc to safely mortar ships from behind cover. In this case while sailing back to base I would've docked behind the little peninsula and shot the Atago and Zao from behind cover (DD was spotting). Do damage without risking getting shot back. Wasn't necessary in this case because they screwed up their engagement (tip: never show broadside to Des Moines lol) but against good foes it could've given you an edge in damage exchange to halt and fire from behind the island for a while.

 

Also interesting to see your aim is completely different as opposed to mine. Does the aiming reticle scale with monitor resolution or do you use a mod? When aiming at the broadside of cruisers at 15-18km I have to aim way further ahead. Way outside of the aiming reticle. 

 

Your video made me want to play the Des Moines again though. Especially with the healing buff and upcoming AA buff. 

 

I disagree. Sander93 is the best DM player. He hitted amazing results when the meta was full of BB's. Rest of his US CA's have also the best results. I mean, his Baltimore and NO are putting me to shame. 

I have 363 games played with Des, 91k average, 60% WR and I hold the global record for the best exp and damage on this ship. I played Des from beginning of OBT till now. And believe me, no ships is so prone to metashift as this vessel.

I'd definitely be interested in teaming up sometime and taking out two Des Moines at once. 

Even with the highest average damage in the world I struggle to win games in the Des Moines. Cruisers on their own simply can not carry games (I normally play alone). 

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Each player has it's own tactic. But I give credit when credit is due, Hindenburg vids from Flamu made me more interested in finishing this line.

And, yeah, teaming up with two Des? This would be glorious. Any BB would cry.

[Sander93]

Just add me to friends and ask if you happen to see me online during the weekends (same for Flamu or any other good DM player who wants to team up). I won't have that much time for the next six months but a few games are better than none I suppose. 

 

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Yeah, I'll sure will. I also have a lot of work right now, and although I can post a lot, I do most of it while on travels But I'll gladly division with you for some Des rounde vous. However, we kinda derailed this topic, so

[XTHD]

Even with the highest average damage in the world I struggle to win games in the Des Moines. Cruisers on their own simply can not carry games (I normally play alone). 

 

Damage and winning isn't always connected, especially on cruisers. Often times you have to sacrifice one for another. Flamu's Zao video in this thread is a good example: a player who cared about winning the game would have recognized the potential danger to team base at about 13-14 min mark (few enemy ships in sight and almost no friendlies on the other flank), and planned their course in a way that would allow quick diverting to home base and saving it. But that would mean giving up 50k damage or more. Not blaming him though, he obviously wanted to use the word "aggression" in different forms at least twenty times throughout the video, and defending own base wouldn't have provided nearly enough context for that.