After reading this you ll never think same about IJN Katori and BB Iowa

[D7v]

 

-You would show mercy to a cruiser with 18 knts.

-Single  training ship attacked by 2 cruisers 2 dds and 2 strongest BBs

-Derped by Iowa 10 salvoes which was the strongest Battleship built ever. Very honorable for your name Iowa !

-Katori is the only warship Iowa BB sank in her whole career wow good job Iowa ! (50 years of service)

-Survivors of Katori left to their fate alone...

 

 

Attack on Truk[edit]

 

 

Katori burning off Truk, 17 February 1944

In the American attack on Truk of 17–18 February 1944, the American Task Force 58 with nine aircraft carriers, supported by six battleships, ten cruisers and 28 destroyers, launched a massive attack on Truk. Katori had departed Truk shortly before the attack, escorting the armed merchant cruiser Akagi Maru, destroyers Maikaze and Nowaki, and minesweeping trawlerShonan Maru No. 15 towards Yokosuka, but came under attack by Grumman F6F Hellcat fighters and TBF Avenger torpedo-bombers from the carriers Yorktown, Intrepid, Essex, Bunker Hill and Cowpens. Akagi Maru was sunk, and Katori hit by a torpedo which did minor damage. However, several hours later, Task Group 50.9's battleships New Jersey and Iowa, along with cruisers Minneapolis and New Orleans and destroyers Bradford and Burns, spotted the Katori group and opened attack. The screening destroyers fired six salvos of torpedoes at Katori(which was already listing slightly to port and on fire amidships), but all torpedoes missed. Katori responded with a salvo of torpedoes which were equally ineffective.

Iowa closed with Katori and fired fifty-nine 16-inch (406 mm) high capacity (non-armor-piercing) rounds and 129 5-inch (127 mm), straddling the cruiser with ten salvos. Just after Iowa's fifth salvo, Katori quickly listed to port exposing seven large shell holes about 5 feet (1.5 m) in diameter in her starboard side, one under the bridge about five feet below the waterline another amidships about at the waterline, plus about nine small holes. The damage on the port side was much worse. After being under attack by Iowa for only 13 minutes, Katori sank stern first, with a port side list at 07°45′N 151°20′E about 40 miles (64 km) northwest of Truk. A large group of survivors were seen in the water after she sank, but the Americans did not recover any.

Katori was officially stricken from the Navy list on 31 March 1944.

 

(Wikipedia)

 

[CauldronBorn]

Well, atleast they didn't gun the survivors down (which they did several times...).

[Kamikazesushi]

It was war, you know. In war soldiers are supposed to kill enemy...unless they surrender.....Are you suggesting to let enemy go, if he is too weak? Think about battle of Leyte.

 

[Arakus]

Btw, why you posted this in "gameplay" section?

Should be in offtopic.

[Jadefalken]

Btw, why you posted this in "gameplay" section?

Should be in offtopic.

 

Well people asking for their nations navies is not gameplay but mods allow both an italian and royal navy threads to remain here. 

 

At least this a great read! Gj op for a nice historical story and goes to show how might mo was truly 

[Jadefalken]

It was war, you know. In war soldiers are supposed to kill enemy...unless they surrender.....Are you suggesting to let enemy go, if he is too weak? Think about battle of Leyte.

 

 

Yeah Sadly the maritime code for picking up survivors was ignored by a lot of countries including allied but full respect to the commander's who did pick up survivors after engagements.

[D7v]

Btw, why you posted this in "gameplay" section?

Should be in offtopic.

 

There are not much people checking off topic section, community is not yet very big and i still think it has to do slightly with gameplay now we have Katori in game files. 

[SBS]

See no problem. It is war, and if you fight fair you are doing it wrong. War is not about honour, it is a bad thing that we should be avoided when ever possible.

As long as you don't kill innocent civilians or prisoners of war and so on, then I got no problem with soldiers killing soldiers (would prefer nobody had to kill each other at all, but...).

 

Still, as an Alpha tester I am happy to see Katori return. I wonder what it's combat potential will be.

[RamirezKurita]

This is war, one of the most important parts of war is the destruction of enemy equipment and infrastructure to diminish the enemy fighting capability which happens to include ships.

 

To add to the feels of the thread though, the Katori was a training cruiser rather than an actual warship, so the majority of the crew would have been undergoing training. Only the instructors on board would have had any idea on what to do in an actual combat scenario, everyone else would have just been panicking while trying to remember how to operate the engines and load the guns while under fire.

[D7v]

This is war, one of the most important parts of war is the destruction of enemy equipment and infrastructure to diminish the enemy fighting capability which happens to include ships.

 

To add to the feels of the thread though, the Katori was a training cruiser rather than an actual warship, so the majority of the crew would have been undergoing training. Only the instructors on board would have had any idea on what to do in an actual combat scenario, everyone else would have just been panicking while trying to remember how to operate the engines and load the guns while under fire.

 

The ship wasnt even a match for a single cruiser say New Orleans.

[CatOnKeyboard]

>criticizing US for not picking up survivors

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_submarine_I-8

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Tone_(1937)

>Japanese POW camps in general

 

Oh also, Japanese servicemen had a history of killing themselves rather than surrender to the enemy, often violently. Maybe they shouldn't have bombed Pearl Harbour, raped thousands of Chinese women and enslaved most of Asia if they didn't want to get on people's bad side. 

[Aotearas]

 

It was war, you know. In war soldiers are supposed to kill enemy...unless they surrender.....Are you suggesting to let enemy go, if he is too weak? Think about battle of Leyte.

 

 

I'm pretty sure shipwrecked sailors count as hors de combat and shooting them down qualifies as war crime.

 

 

Yeah Sadly the maritime code for picking up survivors was ignored by a lot of countries including allied but full respect to the commander's who did pick up survivors after engagements.

 

As for not rescuing them, there's always the situation to consider. There have been various occasions where ships didn't stop to pick up survivors because of an immediate or suspected threat of submarines that could attack them as they were essentially sitting ducks and a commanders duty is to his own men's lifes first and foremost, so not picking up survivors under such circumstances is tragic, but entirely justifiable, albeit retrospective can be a real [edited]on a conscience. But of course there have been plenty occasions of pure malice/revenge or plain negligence.

 

This is war, one of the most important parts of war is the destruction of enemy equipment and infrastructure to diminish the enemy fighting capability which happens to include ships.

 

There is plenty good reason to have such rules and it's not just to spare enemy lifes. Most importantly, it mandates a moral code during times when intense psychological stress, trauma and exposure to extreme violence can erode a soldier's psyche. The laws and customs of war are primarily in place to protect the individual's humanity. You don't want to have to deal with thousands of emotionally wrecked killermachines once the war is over.

 

 

 

[allufewig]

Whats the purpose of the thread? I didnt get it.

 

War is bad? Katori sucks? Americans are evil? 

[Tubit101]

USA were eager to get revenge for Pearl Harbor. Hence situations like this, firebombing of Japanese civilians, etc. Japan themselves were also guilty of terrible atrocities against for example China - atrocities that were well on-par with those committed by Germany.

[Aotearas]

Whats the purpose of the thread? I didnt get it.

 

War is bad? Katori sucks? Americans are evil? 

 

Might be allegorical to low tier seal clubbing ...

[Praxics]

>criticizing US for not picking up survivors

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_submarine_I-8

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Tone_(1937)

>Japanese POW camps in general

 

Oh also, Japanese servicemen had a history of killing themselves rather than surrender to the enemy, often violently. Maybe they shouldn't have bombed Pearl Harbour, raped thousands of Chinese women and enslaved most of Asia if they didn't want to get on people's bad side. 

 

Do you know the RMS Laconia?

 

It’s a ship sunk by German U156 during WW2 near West Africa.

The remarkable thing about this particular incident is that U156 surfaced to help the over 2000 (!) survivors of the Laconia.

Admiral Dönitz even ordered two other UBoots to help U156 to recover the survivors, U507 and U506.

Those submarines then proceeded to carry a lot of survivors on their decks and tow the lifeboats.

An American scout plane spotted the unusual convoy and once reported the allied commander decided that most survivors were Italian POW anyway and that those submarines sunk was worth more than the British and Polish survivors.

The submarines were therefore attacked by bombers a little while later and had to abandon their rescue mission for the most part.

One UBoot was damaged by a bomb, several lifeboats were hit by bombs/splash/shrapnel and since the Germans had to dive they had to kick the survivors off their decks and cut the robes to the lifeboats.

 

Later Dönitz gave the Laconia order: That no German submarine was to rescue any survivors ever again.

 

So to apply your stance on such issue: If allied sailors wanted to be rescued after being torpedoed by a submarine they should have made sure that submarines in a rescue mission are not attacked by allied aircrafts, it is therefore their own fault that they drowned…

 

Yea… does not compute.

 

Lesson is: Two wrongs does not make a right.

[OVanBruce]

Guess I'll buy the Katori, do some fail divisioning and avenge her in a tier IX battle.

[RamirezKurita]

There is plenty good reason to have such rules and it's not just to spare enemy lifes. Most importantly, it mandates a moral code during times when intense psychological stress, trauma and exposure to extreme violence can erode a soldier's psyche. The laws and customs of war are primarily in place to protect the individual's humanity. You don't want to have to deal with thousands of emotionally wrecked killermachines once the war is over.

 

Part of the problem with WWII is that nations were very willing to enter a state of total war (indeed, the US and the UK both entered into total war the moment war was declared for each of them), in which case most of the laws of war became increasingly irrelevant as any target inside a nation in a state of total was effectively a military target. Which is why things like the firebombing of Tokyo was a justified military action, it effectively wasn't a city filled with innocent civilians, but a giant decentralised factory manned by military reservists, because of the state of militarisation Japan was in at the time. Sadly, in a time of total war, people are the expendable resource while materiel is what actually keeps a nation in the fight, they are basically a single, relatively abundant component in the war machine.

[mtm78]

 

Do you know the RMS Laconia?

 

It’s a ship sunk by German U156 during WW2 near West Africa.

The remarkable thing about this particular incident is that U156 surfaced to help the over 2000 (!) survivors of the Laconia.

Admiral Dönitz even ordered two other UBoots to help U156 to recover the survivors, U507 and U506.

Those submarines then proceeded to carry a lot of survivors on their decks and tow the lifeboats.

An American scout plane spotted the unusual convoy and once reported the allied commander decided that most survivors were Italian POW anyway and that those submarines sunk was worth more than the British and Polish survivors.

The submarines were therefore attacked by bombers a little while later and had to abandon their rescue mission for the most part.

One UBoot was damaged by a bomb, several lifeboats were hit by bombs/splash/shrapnel and since the Germans had to dive they had to kick the survivors off their decks and cut the robes to the lifeboats.

 

Later Dönitz gave the Laconia order: That no German submarine was to rescue any survivors ever again.

 

So to apply your stance on such issue: If allied sailors wanted to be rescued after being torpedoed by a submarine they should have made sure that submarines in a rescue mission are not attacked by allied aircrafts, it is therefore their own fault that they drowned…

 

Yea… does not compute.

 

Lesson is: Two wrongs does not make a right.

 

 

Wikipedia page for this for those interested -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident

[Meneleus]

What can I say? Apparently the Katori was trolled by MM that day.

 

Cheers, M

[OVanBruce]

the matter was quietly forgotten by the US military until the Nuremberg Trials, when a prosecutorial attempt to cite the Laconia Order as proof of war crimes by Dönitz and his submariners badly backfired and embarrassed the US when the full story of the incident emerged.

 

[Takeda92]

There are cases of rescues on both sides of the conflict. Not every person is a humanitarian, not everyone is evil.

[Kamikazesushi]

There are cases of rescues on both sides of the conflict. Not every person is a humanitarian, not everyone is evil.

 

I read quite a lot of naval history books and think the problem of saving survivors was fear of submarines. Would you stop your ship (and present easy target) and risk the lives of everyone onboard to help the enemy if you knew there were recently reported enemy submarines nearby? Many times the rescue operation started and shortly after was canceled when some sailor reported "maybe" seeing a periscope....Another thing is that japanese often refused to get rescued and chose honorable death due to their code. If you wanna talk about inhumane treatment of POW you are choosing the wrong army....

[Jadefalken]

>criticizing US for not picking up survivors

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_submarine_I-8

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Tone_(1937)

>Japanese POW camps in general

 

Oh also, Japanese servicemen had a history of killing themselves rather than surrender to the enemy, often violently. Maybe they shouldn't have bombed Pearl Harbour, raped thousands of Chinese women and enslaved most of Asia if they didn't want to get on people's bad side. 

 

I'll just leave this link here...

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident

 

Oh already beaten to it... But got to love the typical double standards 

[Jadefalken]

Guess I'll buy the Katori, do some fail divisioning and avenge her in a tier IX battle.

 

Make a replay... That would be great to watch on YouTube :-)