High Tiers Facepalm?! Kinda..

[t3h3th32]

Although, I've had a great amount of enjoyable matches in my higher tiered ships, there was an equal amount of absolutely terrible ones, if not even more and just now, a different topic made me thought and I was sorta like, yeah, let's throw this in here, let's hope, WG actually reads this forums at least a little bit or perhaps a young and brave Supertester could help save the day and pitch this to his WG bosses, I don't know, either way..

 

Higher tiers are sorta more boring in a way..

 

1. bigger and slower ships (not necessarily slower, but clumsier, that sorta thing, so it's just better to slow down, angle and sit there)

2. bigger and wider maps (with wide opened areas, where no one is motivated to go to and even scared to go to, like Ice or Atlantic)

3. repair costs of bigger ships (where mostly free users struggle and are afraid to get their paint scratched)

4. lots of camper noobs (who just think, if they can engage in a 20 km 1v1 duel with another BB, they're doing their job, while they're not)

 

 

.. list could go on, but it'd would only make the topic more complicated, while it revolves around 1 simple thing!

 

I'd like to see more action packed engagements in higher tiers as well and I think, the simplest thing WG could do about it right now, which would require 0 coding is to further limit the AB caps scenarios. Why? Because back in the days, we had the Encounter Battles, where green team had its base and red team had one as well. It was also possible to cap it, but instead of AB, I think, there was a little flag icon in it instead. Now, we're getting this Domination engagement, but it's the same damn thing. This means, there's also a damn lots of people, who instantly, after the match begins, go like: "Hey, let's just defend our base and let them come!" and man, that's totally killing it.

 

I don't want to dive into the economy issues in higher tiers, I got no issues with that, while others do, that's how the game works and we can't do much about it, we can't also limit worse players from leveling up, I also doubt, we can force WG mapper to open their eyes, so the simplest and most elegant way would be to promote more engagements by increasing the amount of 3 and especially 4 caps scenarios, where people camping in their spawns will brutally suffer, because the fight will be happening somewhere completely else.

 

Summary for the lazy people:

 

A/ increase amount of ABCD caps battle scenarios in higher tiers - forcing people to leave their spawns and fight each other

 

B/ possibly even introduce a capping bonus / buff for BBs, how about +50% capping bonus for a BB, huh?

 

Cheers,

~t3h'Pâr4d0x

[Mr_Mistery]

i think its enough to make lower repair cost T8-10,and HE spam too is a make more unplayable in high tiers.

but WG dont care this we see this

[Nechrom]

Just throwing in another reason to increase the number of multi cap point conquest maps:

 

• DDs have their average rewards halved just by spawning on a two base cap point map.

[Azalgor]

Tier X battles are all about 5 vs 5 DDs facing each other, which ever team has the smartest ones that dont die in 2 min - wins.

Since BB dont want to sail into that torp slaughter after their uncalled rudder nerf and major torp buf that actually made blind random torp spams worth it, combine this with 300k+ repair bills, you get your BB/CA sniper problem...

This game hit a wall a while back, and how are they fixing it? Adding premium bundles with Taiwanese and Chinese ships...Next will be Nigeria, Zimbabwe, the navy of the ancient Maiya tribe...would love to sail the seas on a log...

[TakeMeRiver]

would love to sail the seas on a log...

 

With bb's rng accuracy I'll take my chances sailing a log against them 

[XTHD]

Tier X battles are all about 5 vs 5 DDs facing each other, which ever team has the smartest ones that dont die in 2 min - wins.

Since BB dont want to sail into that torp slaughter after their uncalled rudder nerf and major torp buf that actually made blind random torp spams worth it, combine this with 300k+ repair bills, you get your BB/CA sniper problem...

 

This. The high tier game is entirely decided by DD gameplay, and there is very little that can be done to counter it. One thing that works is a good CV player, but these are exceedingly rare.

[Mayv]

When we had standard battles people were complaining about the constant draws. Zone has also been removed from the high tiers for the same reason. Changing the game mode won't make most players play differently.

[Hauptbahnhof]

 

This. The high tier game is entirely decided by DD gameplay, and there is very little that can be done to counter it. One thing that works is a good CV player, but these are exceedingly rare.

 

Being able to do anything to a DD as a CV ( more then spotting it ), is dependent on the DD player being bad, not the CV player being good.

 

What is "exceedingly rare" in high tier games is thus bad DD players screwing up and eating CV torps/bombs, not good CV players

 

 

[__Katniss__]

Tier X battles are all about 5 vs 5 DDs facing each other, which ever team has the smartest ones that dont die in 2 min - wins.

Since BB dont want to sail into that torp slaughter after their uncalled rudder nerf and major torp buf that actually made blind random torp spams worth it, combine this with 300k+ repair bills, you get your BB/CA sniper problem...

This game hit a wall a while back, and how are they fixing it? Adding premium bundles with Taiwanese and Chinese ships...Next will be Nigeria, Zimbabwe, the navy of the ancient Maiya tribe...would love to sail the seas on a log...

 

Yep, the best solution of DD spamm is adding 2 more to the premium shop and make even more noobs playing with them bacause everyone can buy tier 8 DD without any skill with DD line. RB gonna be an amazing experience after this mini-patch  Just another reason to not even try to play RB again. 

[ColonelPete]

Just yesterday I was in Tier X battle were 2 out of 3 BBs survived and won against a team with 5 DDs.

[__Katniss__]

Just yesterday I was in Tier X battle were 2 out of 3 BBs survived and won against a team with 5 DDs.

If you got more DDs than enemy team but they are dump like hell ( it happend in my case ) you gonna lose really easy with 5 DDs vs 2. But if they are at least avg players its really easy to win. DDs are just annoying in high tier games and forcing BBs to play from distance they cant hit properly. Its not necessarily just a bad  thing. High tier BBs are powerful anyways.

[Seikin]

I'll put my hand up and say I don't like T8+ gameplay. 

I first got IJN cruisers up to T7 and started to see the dominance of BB's up there, and heard about it so much more in the forums for T8-10 - so started messing with the US BB line.

Got to Tier 8, and did not like the gameplay at all. Not at all.  I'd much rather push with my T7 Colorado than sit back with an NC.  There's just too much range at high tiers, and too many people are risk-adverse. At least at T7, if I push with my Colorado, people are much more likely to help as repair costs aren't such an issue. Plus the ship is better suited for that than the NC. T8+ just isn't like that and personally, I simply prefer the gameplay in T7 much, much more. So I'm sitting happily there - no drive at all to progress the US BB line any further.

So built up a bit of cash and decided to get the next cruiser in the IJN line...  built it for invisi-fire. Which is ok, for a change - but not great at doing what the BB's need - DD-hunting. This is part of the problem too, I don't think CA's are able to do the DD hunting thing at high tiers properly without putting themselves in range of almost every BB on the opposition and getting citadelled to high-heaven - not to mention turret traverse not being enough to tag those DD's when they do appear for that second or 2.   I think this is one of the big problems up there, Cruisers aren't performing in terms of being a DD-deterrent.

 

but yeah, TLDR:  I like lower tiers better

[shulzidar]

Being able to do anything to a DD as a CV ( more then spotting it ), is dependent on the DD player being bad, not the CV player being good.

 

What is "exceedingly rare" in high tier games is thus bad DD players screwing up and eating CV torps/bombs, not good CV players

 

Well... This is another topic from BB players PoV...

 

...Sorry to say but if you think that a CV has to waste an attack run on a DD to crippled it... Is because you have never played a DD on a scenario were one side achieves air superiority... It just require a single skill by the CV commander... The capability to click on the map. If the CV commander also wants to keep the kill for himself (or lacks a better target) then they usually go for it to "speed up" the process but that's generally a waste (thinking in team-wide efficiency ofc... Which is not a common trait that WG games promote on their reward system) because a perfectly visible DD is a supressed DD.

 

[Spithas]

First of all i had been hearing about the "stagnant" play at high tiers ever since i started playing this game.

 

My assessment is that it's far overrated. The battles in which i didn't have ships within 15km after the first initial 2-3 salvos are extremely few and far between. 

 

The main reason for high tier players not going much closer than 13-15km though is not repair costs... it's the high tier DDs.  Carpets of 9-15 torps that can be launched at the safety of over 10km simply prohibit this. Add to this the fact that MM doesn't balance DDs per side and you may find a side facing 3-4 Shimakaze or Kagero Gearing with only 1 or 2 DD of their own to show for.

 

2 Cap games are fine. So if BB XP reward for capping. It's the DDs that are the problem.

[Seikin]

First of all i had been hearing about the "stagnant" play at high tiers ever since i started playing this game.

 

My assessment is that it's far overrated. The battles in which i didn't have ships within 15km after the first initial 2-3 salvos are extremely few and far between. 

 

The main reason for high tier players not going much closer than 13-15km though is not repair costs... it's the high tier DDs.  Carpets of 9-15 torps that can be launched at the safety of over 10km simply prohibit this. Add to this the fact that MM doesn't balance DDs per side and you may find a side facing 3-4 Shimakaze or Kagero Gearing with only 1 or 2 DD of their own to show for.

 

2 Cap games are fine. So if BB XP reward for capping. It's the DDs that are the problem.

 

​I don't think its that simple.  I think that's true for BB's, but that's because CA's aren't effective at screening them. Why? Because CA's don't want to close within 15km due to citadel risk from BB's.  

[shulzidar]

The main reason for high tier players not going much closer than 13-15km though is not repair costs... it's the high tier DDs.

 

Oh this arguments can be mirrored to "blame" other classes... The reasson is that BB superior range allows them to try to hit others...

 

...Meanwhile CA captains do not enjoy the same ranges and are the ones forced to get close to do anything (In particular to help countering DDs), meaning that you are creating even bigger "blank" spots were DDs can happily maneuver undetected...

 

...Guess what happens to CA captains that try to break formation and provide torpedo early detection? Who kills them?

 

I repeat, this is the same old story... BB captains cried until CV players became rare and now they have to deal more commonly with scenarios were they lack a friendly CV, WHAT THEY REQUESTED... And instead of asking for revisions on the other class that should counter DDs, the CAs, they OFC, ask for nerfs that affect DD gameplay...

 

...This way to think will stop when ONLY BBs remain on the field...

 

...This is what happens on rock -> scissor -> paper class balance paradigms... You decide to blame a particular class of the whole situation, I just "turn the wheel" and blame another as the source... Net result? The same.

[Blue_Bug]

Many people point the finger to DD's. I can tell you DD's aren't the problem. The Problem is that CA's don't have any business in Tier 9 and 10 Batles.  The CA has to be prety close before they can shoot enemie vessels. There are litle BB's who follow them. As the Ca's don't have any cover, they die most of the time quickly. So many CA's just stay with the BB's doing almost nothing.

 

So playing CA is very boring at high tier. For this reason, I shifted from CA to DD. I have the impression a lot of people did.

 

The fact is that BB's on high tier hardly need CA support. While a CA needs (most of the time)  BB support for having a good game.  Changes must be made so BB's depends more on the support of CA's. So a camping BB will be a dead BB.  High tier games will be more fun. Ca's will be back on High tier and DD's will have a more dificult time.

 

In the mean time, I will sailing the high tiers with my DD's, hunting High tier camping BB's.

 

[Spithas]

The main reason for high tier players not going much closer than 13-15km though is not repair costs... it's the high tier DDs.

 

Oh this arguments can be mirrored to "blame" other classes... The reasson is that BB superior range allows them to try to hit others...

 

Maximum engangement range is like 20km and that is going to be for 1-2 salvos 3 tops after that it is steadily reduced. Detection mechanics and Map layout lead to this.

 

...Meanwhile CA captains do not enjoy the same ranges and are the ones forced to get close to do anything (In particular to help countering DDs), meaning that you are creating even bigger "blank" spots were DDs can happily maneuver undetected...

 

All tier 9-10 CA's can shoot up to 18km their effective range is almost equal to the BBs.

 

...Guess what happens to CA captains that try to break formation and provide torpedo early detection? Who kills them?

 

Detection has nothing to do with the problem of torp carpets and area denial.

 

I repeat, this is the same old story... BB captains cried until CV players became rare and now they have to deal more commonly with scenarios were they lack a friendly CV, WHAT THEY REQUESTED... And instead of asking for revisions on the other class that should counter DDs, the CAs, they OFC, ask for nerfs that affect DD gameplay...

 

Any buff to CA's will make the overpowered. CA required a tad more skill to manage but they are fine.

 

...This is what happens on rock -> scissor -> paper class balance paradigms... You decide to blame a particular class of the whole situation, I just "turn the wheel" and blame another as the source... Net result? The same.

 

I didn't blame a particular class i blamed a very specific segment of that class Tier 9-10 Torp Carpet Spamming DDs. that's not even all of the DDs at those tiers only specific ones. And i also blamed the MM (NOT THE CLASS) for not balancing them for each team.

 

 

Many people point the finger to DD's. I can tell you DD's aren't the problem. The Problem is that CA's don't have any business in Tier 9 and 10 Batles.  The CA has to be prety close before they can shoot enemie vessels. There are litle BB's who follow them. As the Ca's don't have any cover, they die most of the time quickly. So many CA's just stay with the BB's doing almost nothing.

 

Only a person who has no experience of T9-T10 Cruisers would say something so far from the truth.

 

The fact is that BB's on high tier hardly need CA support. While a CA needs (most of the time)  BB support for having a good game.  Changes must be made so BB's depends more on the support of CA's. So a camping BB will be a dead BB.  High tier games will be more fun. Ca's will be back on High tier and DD's will have a more dificult time.

 

BB's on high tier hardly need CA support? ... the most clueless thing i have ever heard so far.

 

In the mean time, I will sailing the high tiers with my DD's, hunting High tier camping BB's.

 

 

Also to those talking about CA's not having enough ability to counter DDs etc:

 

CA's are support ships. They support BBs, they support CVs and they support DDs. They are not a hard DD counter they are a support class.

 

They support BBs as AA defence, additional damage dealing and as prevention to potential swarming.

They support CVs vs DD trying to ninja them and with AA again vs enemy CVs.

They support DDs again with AA and providing the firepower needed when the DDs engage the enemy DDs.

 

The main reason you have the majority of the fleet staying at long ranges is because of the DD torp spam potential and the reason for that is not that CA are not countering them it's because the MM doesn't balance the DDs for each side which creates situation where one team has a huge DD (and therefore area control) advantage right from the start.

 

[t3h3th32]

Just throwing in another reason to increase the number of multi cap point conquest maps:

 

• DDs have their average rewards halved just by spawning on a two base cap point map.

 

More caps, more XP for everyone, either way. But it's certainly a valid point. DDs captains should be led by the game to make the caps their primary objective. While a DD, capping and spotting for the allied ships and possibly even denying the area to the enemy and / or engaging the enemy DDs is a good DD captain, often you see this guy going way off somewhere in the middle of nowhere and he tries to spam torp walls at the enemy from like 10 - 15 km, expecting more, than 1 random hit every 2 minutes.

 

Overall, I really think, everyone would benefit from it.

 

Cheers,

~t3h'Pâr4d0x

[t3h3th32]

Tier X battles are all about 5 vs 5 DDs facing each other, which ever team has the smartest ones that dont die in 2 min - wins.

Since BB dont want to sail into that torp slaughter after their uncalled rudder nerf and major torp buf that actually made blind random torp spams worth it, combine this with 300k+ repair bills, you get your BB/CA sniper problem...

This game hit a wall a while back, and how are they fixing it? Adding premium bundles with Taiwanese and Chinese ships...Next will be Nigeria, Zimbabwe, the navy of the ancient Maiya tribe...would love to sail the seas on a log...

 

Agree with it all. Luckily, the torp buff can be reset by the Target Acquisition module, you usually equip on BBs, a bit worse for CAs, when you try to play the stealth build, but yeah. As I said, we can't do much about the repair bill issue and I'm not also claiming, changes I proposed will drastically revolutionize the gameplay, but the whole point is to be a little nod to BB players and give them a little bit more incentive to move and get involved in the actual battle, while it also contributes to other players as well.

 

Cheers,

~t3h'Pâr4d0x

[Azalgor]

This game will never be perfect.

 

-CA must counter DD, but, DD detection range is about 7km (give or take), scout plane, circles around and at the crucial moment can be at the far end of the circle. Hitting a DD is a hard task even for CA on a stand of range of about 10 km if the DD knows what zig-zag is, then again, hitting a DD, at some point you wonder that a DD compared to its small size can take a beating that any BB would feel jelous (had a moment when a DD took 8 HE hits from my Zao and recieved 0 dmg, just 2 crits on torpedo tubes, disabled AA but on paper 0 dmg, and we also know the vids where a DD took 6 torps and lived to tell the story). So a DD must get a mass decreace in survive ability and icrease the spot range, or, make the torp launch somewhat equal to detection range, so if you see the torps the DD must still be somwhat 10km near not 20+. But i can already hear the cry of the DD players, so its probably never gonna happen.

-CBT, the golden times of this game, CVs were so massively OP that the mere presence of 1 forced the players to stick together, the DD were CV hunters, not mindless torp spawns from 20km range, air superiority was everything back then, and players knew that, right now there are very few CV on tiers 8+, and if we are lucky to have the US one in our team against IJN we know that hands down US rapes the IJN CV, back then there was competition, and surface fleets AA sup in fighter dogfigt was needed, now, well, pff....1 strafe run from 1 US group can kill all 3 IJN fighter groups in 1 sec, while as those 3 will fail in the same scenario. Any changes? No, screw the CV lets add more prem DDs from minor navy countries.

-BB over CA, sorry, but at this point its the only realistic feaure present in this game. Funny no? A BB can 1 shot a CA but it cant nor does CA can 1 shot a DD, when a DD is the weakest in terms of armor, this game made them strong because of it, from an implemented self nominated term - overpenetration. Check their last Naval legend about the Iowa class BB, what was stated about destroying 3/4 IJN ships with nothing but secondary arnament? Do we have this possibility? Ha Ha Ha! Our secondaries cant hit poop from the assigned range of 5 km, a DD can get in 1km fire its torps and leave while loosin maybe 10% of health to secondaries, and the RNG doesnt always alow the main battery to hit the DD from so close.

 

Ever since, WG never learned to make proper balance, they either make something OP or uterly useless, then from some statistick, they swich all around, what was OP becomes crap and so on...Last major patch was total disaster, BB wide spread nerf, overal DD buf, global torp buff, destruction of soviet DD tree(initially planned as gun boats followed by a gun nerf), downgrade of Zao to tier 8 next to Atago. No wonder we have that many DDs, because there are no actuall means to counter them, they can take the beating like some BB can only dream about, and they can sink anything with a single well placed torp salvo, while as gun boats must pray to RNGesus.

[Hauptbahnhof]

Funny no? A BB can 1 shot a CA but it cant nor does CA can 1 shot a DD, when a DD is the weakest in terms of armor, this game made them strong because of it, from an implemented self nominated term - overpenetration.

 

Cruisers can one shot a DD ( if we define one shot as kill within the same timespan it takes for a BB to reload to make the comparison fair ).

 

You can do it using either skill ( hitting most shells ), or through luck ( detonation which is quite common on DDs ), or through a combination ( knocking out engine or rudder on DD after they repaired ).

 

 

 

I don't believe for a second that you landed 8 Zao HE shells into the hull of a DD and did 0 damage, I've never been able to hit with HE shell on a DD doing no damage.

[VeteranGamer84]

What is preventing me MAINLY to play with T9 ships is the servicing cost, I don't know what's the point in making this "Servicing Cost" system from WG??

I really don't like how WG deal with the game, Servicing Cost?? Really??

[Hauptbahnhof]

What is preventing me MAINLY to play with T9 ships is the servicing cost, I don't know what's the point in making this "Servicing Cost" system from WG??

I really don't like how WG deal with the game, Servicing Cost?? Really??

 

They need to "convince" people to pay them money some way. Adding a high cost to play with the coolest ships if your not the top 5% best players seem to be the solution they choose.

[Azalgor]

Timespan is one thing, but take the number of shelss needed to kill a DD in that timespan, and a CA, at some point youl be surprised. (no lucky detonation shots)