The real issue with matchmaking

[Babykim]

is not what all late night gamers are complaining about (yes, tier X US carriers are OP). The real issue is this:

 

The matchmaking in this game penalizes divisions excessively. I try to play with a buddy whenever I can, and have 1.6k games in total. Roughly half of those in division. While two player divisions are kind of tolerable, the match making penalty on full divisions is horrendous to the point of making playing with friends no fun at all. Of course it does so on average, and you can actually land on the top once in an evening. But it destroys the whole enjoyment over a course of many games. Besides I strongly suspect skill based adjustment in addition. Put you tinfoil hats if you want, but its existence is almost proven by WG patent citations of this "invention". This is not the main issue though. The main issue is the first.

[mtm78]

Skill based adjustments, how so?

 

To force everyone to 50%? If so, their failing miserably 

 

Btw, I play in divisions for a very large part of my games, I don't see any punishment for playing that way 

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

Matchmaking should be mirror matchmaking all the waY, it is the only way to have a fair and balanced mm.

[Babykim]

I notice significantly worse MM when in division. Yes, at low tiers you can still sort the noobs (say in a tier 4 battleship) just because they cannot shoot. But higher tiers this becomes no fun. These is very small benefit of TS cooperation, which cannot be realized if the rest of you team is filled with hopeless noobs. You just cannot be everywhere at once to prevent them from dying.

[Picard12]

Weird, why do I always get an ~80% Winrate when playing in a division with friends on whichever tier? Must be RNGesus loving me.

[Admiral_noodle]

MM is not taking skull into account. It doesn't even know who is good and who isn't.

 

Man doesn't screw over divisions in its code, sometimes it just happens. Other times the division is in itself OP (2 imperators and an Arkansas?)

 

I actually do *worse* in a division overall because I trust my div mates and don't listen to my own head telling me "this is a bad plan".

 

I need to work on that.

[basharran]

I think in general the matchmaking is just rubish at balancing the tiers between the 2 teams, and yes it seems worse when divisions are involved (not perse when you are in a division). Also "balacing" by tier is quite flawed in itself as you can get a mix of the 3 ship classes where there is no balance anymore between the teams, for instance 3 top tier BB's vs 2 top tier CA/CL and 1 top tier DD.

[Azalgor]

The MM fails to calculate the tiers of the division, the core problem lies in it and adjustments should be made. If you take lets say a T6-T8 division, it takes top and low scale of the MM and cant be considered a troll division, but what does the MM do? It takes the top tier and throws it in T9-T10, instead of a window gap of T6-T8. Same goes when you make a 1 tier difference like T7-T8 and it still kicks you to a T10, i think its pretty stupid and must be changed to look up for the teams of division based tiers that are in a the MM gap that fits them.

Yes, those who take a 3+ tier (like i bet we all seen an Atago/Tirpitz with a T3 budy) different ships should be punished and based on the highest tier, because knowing that mm works on a +-2 tier difference is something that can be looked into when start playing the game and planning to play in a division. I could have added more PS but i think you get the idea:

 

[basharran]

The MM fails to calculate the tiers of the division, the core problem lies in it and adjustments should be made. If you take lets say a T6-T8 division, it takes top and low scale of the MM and cant be considered a troll division, but what does the MM do? It takes the top tier and throws it in T9-T10, instead of a window gap of T6-T8. Same goes when you make a 1 tier difference like T7-T8 and it still kicks you to a T10, i think its pretty stupid and must be changed to look up for the teams of division based tiers that are in a the MM gap that fits them.

Yes, those who take a 3+ tier (like i bet we all seen an Atago/Tirpitz with a T3 budy) different ships should be punished and based on the highest tier, because knowing that mm works on a +-2 tier difference is something that can be looked into when start playing the game and planning to play in a division. I could have added more PS but i think you get the idea:

 

 

I don't fully agree with you, when your suggestion is implemented you could use this to always be "top tier" with at least 1 ship in your division. This is also not how it should work, also as long as WG don't limit tier spread in divisions (should be max 1 imho) there is no such thing as "troll divisions" (although you can question the common sense of the people making +3 tier difference divisions).

[Babykim]

 

I was not talking about troll and fair divisions, and I don't want to make point on skill-based MM. Maybe it accounts for the server win-rates of different ships, as opposed to player win-rates. But this is a side-remark; please do not pick on it.

 

What I want to say is that by taking a full three ship division of the same tier you put yourself at a significant potential disadvantage from the match-making. Often you can compensate by team play, especially on low tiers and with skillful mates. But the MM penalty is quite significant. Again, it is apparent only on average. Perhaps it works via the current win-rate. And please we almost certainly know that a win-streak biases the MM against the lucker. This was semi-confirmed in an interview with a WoT game designer and the above-mentioned patent citations.

 

This is my strong conjecture, obviously no proof forthcoming.

 

[basharran]

I was not talking about troll and fair divisions, and I don't want to make point on skill-based MM. Maybe it accounts for the server win-rates of different ships, as opposed to player win-rates. But this is a side-remark; please do not pick on it.

 

What I want to say is that by taking a full three ship division of the same tier you put yourself at a significant potential disadvantage from the match-making. Often you can compensate by team play, especially on low tiers and with skillful mates. But the MM penalty is quite significant. Again, it is apparent only on average. Perhaps it works via the current win-rate. And please we almost certainly know that a win-streak biases the MM against the lucker. This was semi-confirmed in an interview with a WoT game designer and the above-mentioned patent citations.

 

This is my strong conjecture, obviously no proof forthcoming.

 

Fair enough, the feeling that something is amiss can also without proof destroy a game. Since I think this game is on the verge of collapsing / making it I would like WG to take steps and keep us informed as how things work, what they are planning to do with it and if something is just currently broken.

[RamirezKurita]

 

I don't fully agree with you, when your suggestion is implemented you could use this to always be "top tier" with at least 1 ship in your division. This is also not how it should work, also as long as WG don't limit tier spread in divisions (should be max 1 imho) there is no such thing as "troll divisions" (although you can question the common sense of the people making +3 tier difference divisions).

 

However, the price you would pay for guaranteeing having a ship in your division at top tier would be to have a ship in your division at the bottom possible tier, so it pretty much balances out. If you play with your T8 ship with your T6 partner, yes you will always do well because you will never face T9/10 in your T8, but your partner will need all the help he can get because he is guaranteed to be facing off against T8s in his T6 every single game.

 

If WG simply limited divisions to only include ships that can normally be in the same games together (normally within 2 tiers of each other, but I know it changes for some premiums and in the early tiers), then only put divisions in to games where all the division members could normally enter, then it would fix the problems related to having below minimum tier ships ruining games. Sure, you can guarantee that you have a pair of top tier ships in a game, but considering how the MM tries to balance out the tiers somewhat between teams, it is likely that your division would account for most of the top tier ships in your game, you wouldn't be able to force more high tier ships into the game than the matchmaking would normally allow.

[mtm78]

The MM fails to calculate the tiers of the division, the core problem lies in it and adjustments should be made. If you take lets say a T6-T8 division, it takes top and low scale of the MM and cant be considered a troll division, but what does the MM do? It takes the top tier and throws it in T9-T10, instead of a window gap of T6-T8. Same goes when you make a 1 tier difference like T7-T8 and it still kicks you to a T10, i think its pretty stupid and must be changed to look up for the teams of division based tiers that are in a the MM gap that fits them.

Yes, those who take a 3+ tier (like i bet we all seen an Atago/Tirpitz with a T3 budy) different ships should be punished and based on the highest tier, because knowing that mm works on a +-2 tier difference is something that can be looked into when start playing the game and planning to play in a division. I could have added more PS but i think you get the idea:

 

 

And that is how it should be or you would abuse the heck out of it making sure you're always top tier when paired with a lower tiered ship in your division....... 

[Xevious_Red]

There are plenty of pairings that would easily be abusable: 

 

Fuso and isokaze for example - getting the best BB for its tier to always be top tier, while paired with a destroyer that can more than hold its own against tier 6 BB.

 

Same with whatever your favourite tier 7 is + minekaze.

[Shadeshots]

I notice significantly worse MM when in division. Yes, at low tiers you can still sort the noobs (say in a tier 4 battleship) just because they cannot shoot. But higher tiers this becomes no fun. These is very small benefit of TS cooperation, which cannot be realized if the rest of you team is filled with hopeless noobs. You just cannot be everywhere at once to prevent them from dying.

 

And 1600 games ago that you claim to have played you was also a noob.

[Babykim]

 

And 1600 games ago that you claim to have played you was also a noob.

 

I agree with that. But what is your point?

[Shadeshots]

 

I agree with that. But what is your point?

 

Ive not seen divisions be penalized at all whether they are noob or not, but maybe thats because i dont take much notice since i play on my own.

[red_eye1980]

 

However, the price you would pay for guaranteeing having a ship in your division at top tier would be to have a ship in your division at the bottom possible tier, so it pretty much balances out. If you play with your T8 ship with your T6 partner, yes you will always do well because you will never face T9/10 in your T8, but your partner will need all the help he can get because he is guaranteed to be facing off against T8s in his T6 every single game.

 

If WG simply limited divisions to only include ships that can normally be in the same games together (normally within 2 tiers of each other, but I know it changes for some premiums and in the early tiers), then only put divisions in to games where all the division members could normally enter, then it would fix the problems related to having below minimum tier ships ruining games. Sure, you can guarantee that you have a pair of top tier ships in a game, but considering how the MM tries to balance out the tiers somewhat between teams, it is likely that your division would account for most of the top tier ships in your game, you wouldn't be able to force more high tier ships into the game than the matchmaking would normally allow.

 

Yeah totally agree with you. That's how it should be. Plus the term OP is relative to who and what you re up against. For example I dont feel Im that OP in my minekaze when facing a karlsruhe who knows exactly where I am and I have spent my smokes already, while ive just missed my salvo. 

 

However,with the current (flawed) division model. Does it benefit at all if say all 3 players of a division are same tier? Or are you automatically the bottom tier of the game? Or is it random?

[Xevious_Red]

It's random. Had 3 man divisions that are all the same tier be top, middle and bottom, exactly the same as solo.

[Babykim]

 

However,with the current (flawed) division model. Does it benefit at all if say all 3 players of a division are same tier? Or are you automatically the bottom tier of the game? Or is it random?

 

It is random, but the MM does account for divisions in addition to the actual ships comprising them. Say, 3 NewYork BBs in a division are weighted more for purpose of MM than 3 New York BBs individually. I am saying that this additional weight is too much, meaning that you be lower tier more often in a division than in a single ship playing alone. This kills the fun of playing with friends. My friends now prefer playing alone rather than together with me, especially not in a full division. And each one of us has a win-rate in the 55-60 percent range.

[red_eye1980]

It's random. Had 3 man divisions that are all the same tier be top, middle and bottom, exactly the same as solo.

 

Which is fair really. Maybe that is what WG trying to achieve? Have all ships in a division be same tier? Without actually forcing it?

[Babykim]

It's random. Had 3 man divisions that are all the same tier be top, middle and bottom, exactly the same as solo.

 

I strongly doubt this!

[Babykim]

 

Which is fair really. Maybe that is what WG trying to achieve? Have all ships in a division be same tier? Without actually forcing it?

 

You misunderstand his point. He is saying that a full division of same-tier ships is a likely to be top tier of the game as any one of those ships when played solo. This I doubt. This has nothing to do with the fact that all divisions must be of the same tier anyway. It is one of the biggest failures of WG games that multi-tier divisions or platoons are even allowed to enter a game. But this is a point unrelated to my point.

[Xevious_Red]

Well considering on the first page there's the now locked topic "matchmaking" by Thesmell where he complains about the enemy team having a 3 man division of tier 8, while his team only has 1 tier 8 and everyone else is 6/7

[Babykim]

Well considering on the first page there's the now locked topic "matchmaking" by Thesmell where he complains about the enemy team having a 3 man division of tier 8, while his team only has 1 tier 8 and everyone else is 6/7

 

I hate fail divisions myself but there is nothing we can do about this idiotic feature of the game, and its not the only such feature.