Smaller citadels for high tier cruisers?

[Myrmix]

At the moment, there are about 10-20% cruisers in hightier-matches, due to the fact that battleships just have superior firepower and can easily oneshot them. On the other hand can destroyers still use their stealth-advantage to engage battleships.

Cruisers tend to do damage over time, so it is much more essential for a cruiser to survive longer, to be rewarded xp and credits.

Now I'm asking more experienced players (I only recently played york and nagato):

Would smaller citadels for t8+ cruisers enhance their survivability in high-tier battles?

I think the cruisers would still get large damage due to the weak armor, if hit properly and a skilled BB-player with good aim (and some good rng) could still annihilate cruisers with one salvo,

but in most cases cruisers could survive 1-2 salvos more and get to safety and/or ask for support to continue doing damage.

Of course we would drift off from the historical inner structure of the ships, but if it supports a more healthy gameplay in higher tiers, i think it's worth a try.

[OVanBruce]

The lower point in the cruiser grind is tier VIII, where the difference in firepower and accuracy makes your ship terribly helpless against BBs. Things get much better from tier IX upwards mainly thanks to the buff in range the range imprivement gives and the health potion, which with 4 charges can give you even more than 50% of your health back and recovers 33% of any citadel/heavy damage you receive. Check my Roon stats, I've got 70% survival rate with her which has convinced me that with goodjudgement BBs are something that can be dealt with now.

Granted it will never be as easy as low tiers cruisers but BB-CA relation in high tiers has never been more healthier.

Now the real menace for both BB and CA on high tiers are DDs and torpwalls, even more for cruisers.

 

[Meneleus]

The lower point in the cruiser grind is tier VIII, where the difference in firepower and accuracy makes your ship terribly helpless against BBs.

 

Seems to be the case. I have tried my hands on the New Orleans and it was a real eye-opener to experience the ease with which you are annihillated from any angle. I am a couple of thousand experience points short for the Mogami, I am curious if I can manage to get her to work. I guess it would involve AFT in combination with those 155mm guns and the concealment upgrade.

 

Things get much better from tier IX upwards mainly thanks to the buff in range the range imprivement gives and the health potion, which with 4 charges can give you even more than 50% of your health back and recovers 33% of any citadel/heavy damage you receive.

 

Perhaps a better solution than tinkering with the citadels would be introducing Repair Party to T8 cruisers, heck, perhaps even T7 cruisers as well.

 

Cheers, M

[woppy101]

At the moment, there are about 10-20% cruisers in hightier-matches, due to the fact that battleships just have superior firepower and can easily oneshot them. On the other hand can destroyers still use their stealth-advantage to engage battleships.

Cruisers tend to do damage over time, so it is much more essential for a cruiser to survive longer, to be rewarded xp and credits.

Now I'm asking more experienced players (I only recently played york and nagato):

Would smaller citadels for t8+ cruisers enhance their survivability in high-tier battles?

I think the cruisers would still get large damage due to the weak armor, if hit properly and a skilled BB-player with good aim (and some good rng) could still annihilate cruisers with one salvo,

but in most cases cruisers could survive 1-2 salvos more and get to safety and/or ask for support to continue doing damage.

Of course we would drift off from the historical inner structure of the ships, but if it supports a more healthy gameplay in higher tiers, i think it's worth a try.

 

so what you want is only to be one salvoed by highly skilled BB capts(about 10% of all bb capts) and every other BB capt you can still burn alive without worry, yeah ok! how about we do that in in return we nerf the hell out of HE damage and fire chance to balance it?

[Panocek]

 

so what you want is only to be one salvoed by highly skilled BB capts(about 10% of all bb capts) and every other BB capt you can still burn alive without worry, yeah ok! how about we do that in in return we nerf the hell out of HE damage and fire chance to balance it?

 

HE is already nerfed, doing above 5k dmg requires landing multiple shells on undamaged ship sections, which isn't exactly that easy at times. Fire on properly set up BBs is little issue.

 

Repeated bash on superstructure at best knocks out remaining AA guns or secondaries.

 

And its not like single 203mm HE salvo removes half the battleship hp either...

[vortenus]

Smaller citadels? No. But i was thinking something like this: increase the chance you will be citadeled when showing side. Hell, make that a 100% that you'll get one. If you show side it means you **cked up and you should be punished. But reduce drasticlly citadel chance when you're angled and remove those absurd citadeles in you're backside. I mean c'mon, a shell scratching a paint from your stern for 20k dmg...

[SomeoneYouKnow2]

 

Seems to be the case. I have tried my hands on the New Orleans and it was a real eye-opener to experience the ease with which you are annihillated from any angle. I am a couple of thousand experience points short for the Mogami, I am curious if I can manage to get her to work. I guess it would involve AFT in combination with those 155mm guns and the concealment upgrade.

 

 

Perhaps a better solution than tinkering with the citadels would be introducing Repair Party to T8 cruisers, heck, perhaps even T7 cruisers as well.

 

Cheers, M

 

Give it to all heavy cruisers. This would exclude Cleveland and 155mm Mogamis, perfect since those perform better than their peers already.

[Panocek]

 

Give it to all heavy cruisers. This would exclude Cleveland and 155mm Mogamis, perfect since those perform better than their peers already.

 

Yet Mogami/203 IS a heavy cruiser... Though that can be fixed by tying consumable to certain hull/gun module, just like USN DDs or earlier battleships

[SomeoneYouKnow2]

 

Yet Mogami/203 IS a heavy cruiser... Though that can be fixed by tying consumable to certain hull/gun module, just like USN DDs or earlier battleships

 

Yes that was sort of my point. It would be an incentive to use the 203s on the Mogami instead. Another one would be to increase the range and ROF to at least match that of the Myoko....

[Et_Lanatus_baro]

As far as i'm concerned all cruisers at T8 should get the repair party, This would be the step in the right direction to balance the Cruiser issue at that tier.

[Myrmix]

The lower point in the cruiser grind is tier VIII, where the difference in firepower and accuracy makes your ship terribly helpless against BBs. Things get much better from tier IX upwards mainly thanks to the buff in range the range imprivement gives and the health potion, which with 4 charges can give you even more than 50% of your health back and recovers 33% of any citadel/heavy damage you receive. Check my Roon stats, I've got 70% survival rate with her which has convinced me that with goodjudgement BBs are something that can be dealt with now.

 

Granted it will never be as easy as low tiers cruisers but BB-CA relation in high tiers has never been more healthier.

 

Now the real menace for both BB and CA on high tiers are DDs and torpwalls, even more for cruisers.

 

So you think it is okay the way it is? I read that the t8+ german cruisers are very good, compared to their counterparts, so it might be tree-specific?

Then the reason for few CAs in hightier are torpedoes? Maybe a smaller standard-torpedo-spread could help? or you could give cruisers a class-advantage to spot torpedoes earlier (without sonar, but not quite as powerful)

Smaller citadels? No. But i was thinking something like this: increase the chance you will be citadeled when showing side. Hell, make that a 100% that you'll get one. If you show side it means you **cked up and you should be punished. But reduce drasticlly citadel chance when you're angled and remove those absurd citadeles in you're backside. I mean c'mon, a shell scratching a paint from your stern for 20k dmg...

I always try to avoid to show my side, but some cruisers have to, in order to bring all their guns to use. And then there is the problem that you sometimes have to turn at one point, because your flank is retreating.

I think my personal problem with cruisers is, that i have to rely on the battleships to catch the attention...even on t7 the first reaction of some battleships is turning as far away as their fire range permits.

With less damage taken, some cruisers might be able to get closer to enemy DD's and support their own, enhancing the chance, that battleships try to engage closer to the frontline when they don't have to fear huge torpedowalls.

[Stugga]

 

Give it to all heavy cruisers. This would exclude Cleveland and 155mm Mogamis, perfect since those perform better than their peers already.

 

You forgot that cleveland's shell travel time / trajectory has been nerfed to hell and back and Mogami atm is nerfed cuz the "detection after fire" is tied up to the hull (you must use the gimped A hull) instead of the guns.  Those Mogami's data you maybe see in websites are of all Mogami's battles since OBT, I'd love to see some more recent data.

[Stugga]

Basically I disagree that t8 cruisers should get the repair party because they meet tier 6 cruisers in randoms and that would disturb the balance. However, they should remove it also from the freakin P2W Atago.

 

Because of Atago P2W, I refuse to play any t8 cruiser till they fix it, so basically I abandoned all cruisers progression.

[SomeoneYouKnow2]

 

You forgot that cleveland's shell travel time / trajectory has been nerfed to hell and back and Mogami atm is nerfed cuz the "detection after fire" is tied up to the hull (you must use the gimped A hull) instead of the guns.  Those Mogami's data you maybe see in websites are of all Mogami's battles since OBT, I'd love to see some more recent data.

 

I haven't forgotten anything. Here is recent data:

 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/ShipAvgList/ShipAvgList.html

[Stugga]

 

You forgot that cleveland's shell travel time / trajectory has been nerfed to hell and back and Mogami atm is nerfed cuz the "detection after fire" is tied up to the hull (you must use the gimped A hull) instead of the guns.  Those Mogami's data you maybe see in websites are of all Mogami's battles since OBT, I'd love to see some more recent data.

 

edit: 155mm doesn't do much HE dmg to those high tier BBs it can invis fire anyway and in order for those 203mm to be competitive, their range should be buffed - Mogami now is a shadow of its past self, same as CBT Cleveland. Personally, I stopped at Myoko.

[OVanBruce]

So you think it is okay the way it is? I read that the t8+ german cruisers are very good, compared to their counterparts, so it might be tree-specific?

Then the reason for few CAs in hightier are torpedoes? Maybe a smaller standard-torpedo-spread could help? or you could give cruisers a class-advantage to spot torpedoes earlier (without sonar, but not quite as powerful)

 

I do think it's better than before thanks to the introduction of extra charge for premium consumables and the citadel damage recovery. And it's not about tree specific characteristics because USN and IJN favor long range invisifiring while KM favors resilience thanks to their advanced armor scheme. In Roon I went full RoF build which make me allways visible when I fire and the ship tanks quite well, IJN has this amazing concleament that makes then decide when to shoot more easily and USN has a good combination of the other 2 navies, all of then can ssurvive quite well if you use their strenghts well.

 

My main problem now with cruisers in higher tiers is basically the lack of distinctive playstiles.  In all 3 branches it's allways shoot from >15kms and kite enemy shots, that's it. Compared to DDs or CVs, it's much less varied.Maybe the Light cruiser lines will fill that lack of  different playstiles in the cruiser role.

[Stugga]

 

I haven't forgotten anything. Here is recent data:

 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/ShipAvgList/ShipAvgList.html

 

In half of those recent weeks Mogami is in the middle of the list, albeit always higher from New Orleans, but we all know how WG screwed US cruisers shell travel times (plus no torps that add to average dmg). In the other half of the weeks Mogami is indeed above average. --- However, let me note that it was the favorite cruiser for months, that means that players played it a lot, so they got to know the ship well. -- Useful website nevertheless, I'll keep monitoring it, thx.

[willTell]

There is a problem with certain cruisers that use 200+mm shells. The lack of range compared to battleships on their mm range is a huge problem. I am mainly talking about Pensacola and Mogami 200mm guns. Those ships/configurations are mostly useless on open maps. Pensacola additionally has abysmal camo values which have the same range as its guns. But the death sentence, especially while cruising in the Pensacola, every shot from any angle can citadel you. It doesn't even matter how careful you play, because with the ranges of bb guns, you even get shot from angles you wouldn't expect, from ships that aren't even visible to you.

 

No, this ain't a discussion about buff cruisers in general, but some cruisers on higher tiers are just plainly underpowered and could need a rework.

[Myrmix]

 

My main problem now with cruisers in higher tiers is basically the lack of distinctive playstiles.  In all 3 branches it's allways shoot from >15kms and kite enemy shots, that's it. Compared to DDs or CVs, it's much less varied.Maybe the Light cruiser lines will fill that lack of  different playstiles in the cruiser role.

 

A DD can choose where to drive alone and flank enemies easily, same with planes, that's right.

I think it's more difficult for BB to get opportunities by yourself, because other than cruisers you have to choose far ahead where you are sailing (and also where to turn your guns).

A cruiser can always try and flank a busy enemy in close areas with islands, but a battleship has to hope the enemy itself makes a mistake, or a teammate forces them to show broadside (torps, etc).

Of course i don't have the experience of high-tier-cruisers, but maps like icelands seem to have enough areas where cruisers can find enough cover.

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

Basically I disagree that t8 cruisers should get the repair party because they meet tier 6 cruisers in randoms and that would disturb the balance. However, they should remove it also from the freakin P2W Atago.

 

Because of Atago P2W, I refuse to play any t8 cruiser till they fix it, so basically I abandoned all cruisers progression.

 

 

Yeh, the Atago, a real P2W machine at tier 8. With its massive 3.8 rounds a minute, huge 15.8km range and ginormous 40,100 hitpoints.

God help an Amagi player if he comes up against one with his puny 12400 AP damage, 19.9km range and 66,300 hitpoints.

And as for a Yamato player with 14800 AP damage, 26.6km range and 97,200 hitpoints!! Well, don’t bother turning up because you’re doomed.

You continue to not play cruisers, and I am sure you will hate three shotting a full health cruiser to death with your BB at those higher levels, whether they show you their broadside, front side, or backside.

[XTHD]

At the moment, there are about 25-30% cruisers in hightier-matches, due to the fact that battleships just have superior alpha strike but inferior dps and can in very rare circumstances oneshot them. On the other hand can destroyers still use their stealth-advantage to engage battleships.

Cruisers tend to do damage over time, so it is much more essential for a cruiser to survive longer, to be rewarded xp and credits. Same applies to battleships, because their damage potential is wildly inconsistent.

Now I'm asking more experienced players (I only recently played york and nagato):

Would smaller citadels for t8+ cruisers enhance their survivability in high-tier battles?

I think the cruisers would still get large damage due to the weak armor, if hit properly and a lucky BB-player incredibly good rng could still annihilate cruisers with one salvo once every month or so,

but in most cases cruisers could survive 1-2 salvos more in addition to the 5-6 salvos it usually takes to sink them and get to safety and/or ask for support to continue doing damage.

Of course we would drift off from the historical inner structure of the ships, but if it supports a battleship-free gameplay in higher tiers, i think it's worth a try.

 

Fixed it for you.

[Myrmix]

 

Fixed it for you.

 

Because you are afraid of cruisers in a high-tier battleship? Or just BB-mafia afraid of loosing their monopole?

I myself am a battleship-player rather than cruiser, but I would welcome the fact that 1 BB has trouble with at least 3 or 2 cruisers. Atm it just annihilates 2 cruisers with 4-5 salvos, depending on rng.

On lower tiers the cruiser can actually be a problem for battleships, because they can kite it and do damage due to their precision and the battleship's size. On higher tiers, BBs are very accurate on extreme distance, so the cruisers don't have the advantage of just beeing a small target and the fact that they are not that maneuverable like lower tiers.

[XTHD]

 

 

Yeh, the Atago, a real P2W machine at tier 8. With its massive 3.8 rounds a minute, huge 15.8km range and ginormous 40,100 hitpoints.

God help an Amagi player if he comes up against one with his puny 12400 AP damage, 19.9km range and 66,300 hitpoints.

And as for a Yamato player with 14800 AP damage, 26.6km range and 97,200 hitpoints!! Well, don’t bother turning up because you’re doomed.

You continue to not play cruisers, and I am sure you will hate three shotting a full health cruiser to death with your BB at those higher levels, whether they show you their broadside, front side, or backside.

 

Never mind that the chance the Amagi player actually does 12400 AP damage is about one in a hundred (just check how many citadel hits you get on average compared to shots fired), but lets check anyway what the Atago can do. In a typical situation where the Atago gets "three shot", which takes one minute not counting the initial turret rotation etc, the Atago can do about 50k direct HE damage (assuming 90% accuracy because that's easy to get on a BB from a typical 3-shot range), and have over 80% chance of starting three fires, which would do additional 20k or so damage, if Amagi puts one of them out manually. So without even mentioning torpedoes we just did nearly twice the amount of damage to the battleship than we received. What more do you want?

[vortenus]

 

Fixed it for you.

 

I loled so hard So we had BB's crying about CV then DD's and now we have Ca cry. Sorry kids its the last thing you can whine about. No more excuses for you. 

 

 

Never mind that the chance the Amagi player actually does 12400 AP damage is about one in a hundred (just check how many citadel hits you get on average compared to shots fired), but lets check anyway what the Atago can do. In a typical situation where the Atago gets "three shot", which takes one minute not counting the initial turret rotation etc, the Atago can do about 50k direct HE damage (assuming 90% accuracy because that's easy to get on a BB from a typical 3-shot range), and have over 80% chance of starting three fires, which would do additional 20k or so damage, if Amagi puts one of them out manually. So without even mentioning torpedoes we just did nearly twice the amount of damage to the battleship than we received. What more do you want?

 

Yeap, seen this myself. Poor Amagi captains terrified for their lifes. Running away for the sight of single Atago. Hunted, chased and eventually kiled without mercy. Say"NO" to Amagi mutilation, protect them form those rabid Atagos!!!!!!

[XTHD]

Because you are afraid of cruisers in a high-tier battleship? Or just BB-mafia afraid of losing (learn to spell) their monopole?

I myself am a battleship-player rather than cruiser, but I would welcome the fact that 1 BB has trouble with at least 3 or 2 cruisers. Atm it just annihilates 2 cruisers with 4-5 salvos, depending on rng.

On lower tiers the cruiser can actually be a problem for battleships, because they can kite it and do damage due to their precision and the battleship's size. On higher tiers, BBs are very accurate on extreme distance, so the cruisers don't have the advantage of just beeing a small target and the fact that they are not that maneuverable like lower tiers.

 

Just wait till you play in tiers where not every player is an Omaha driver that downloaded the game three days ago. Also, tiers 6-8 is the peak of BB strength, so you are getting a rather skewed picture. Also you have some factual errors in your post, for example battleships don't get more accurate as tiers increase, in fact the horizontal dispersion model is exactly the same for all battleships from the same nation. How vertical dispersion changes is unknown, but personal experience tell me that the accuracy is slightly worse at tier VIII for IJN than before. Also, the range on IJN BBs actually decreases after Fuso, and doesn't get very high again until Yamato. Cruisers on the other hand, get 16% range module, high caliber guns (good shell speed) and either high fire chance or good armor pen, depending on nation. High tier cruisers are more than capable of fighting battleships.

 

 

I loled so hard So we had BB's crying about CV then DD's and now we have Ca cry. Sorry kids its the last thing you can whine about. No more excuses for you. 

 

Was no crying in there, I just edited his post to make it factually correct. Or are you going to tell me that battleship RNG is a lie?