Undetectable Destroyer Firing Capabilities Excel Table

[xPiiRaTeD]

Updated.

Great thread, i have been using this benefit ever since iChase made his video showing the benefits of stealth firing as a DD.

 

 

I noticed you didn't have the Blyskawica on your list, so as i wanted to test this for myself i made a training-room and tested the Blys's firing detectablity, which was pretty good at stock and very nice with AFT 

 

 

Blyskawica stats:

The Blys is detected at 7,5 km with the premium camo (-3% detection and +50% XP), and it can shoot 12 km at stock and 14,4 km with AFT, and Blys's guns give it away at 11,15 km so you have 0,85 km and 3,25 km with AFT to play with, and Blys's gun arc are pretty good, not like the USN DD's that can't hit anything over 11-12 km because the high gun arc.

 Oh I didn't see this post with the Blskawaica stats. Will update in a moment. Thanks.

[Altharius]

DD get way too overpowered like this... 

 

I'm expecting a rethinking of DD tactics really soon...

[darky_fighter]

 

If i understand this right; every USA destroyer tier for tier outguns an IJN destroyer tier for tier ?

 

I play japanese DDs and shot my gun in the last 10 matches one or two times. Japanese DDs aren't made for gunfights. You have to play them like submarines.

[waxx25]

Nice work. Thank you respect and plus. 

 

Strangely despite their firing ranges Soviet ships seem to be worst stealth gunners except tier 9 and 10. 

 

But I think most interesting tiers are 6 and

why need camo when you go 40kts at 12-14km.....goodluck hitting them at that range.

[Panocek]

why need camo when you go 40kts at 12-14km.....goodluck hitting them at that range.

 

Yet when you start receiving damage, you will lose turrets faster than your hp. Especially as their agility isn't stellar - rudder time is ok, but cruiser-like turn radius doesn't help.

[Kurbain]

 

Yet when you start receiving damage, you will lose turrets faster than your hp. Especially as their agility isn't stellar - rudder time is ok, but cruiser-like turn radius doesn't help.

 

Yeah, the amount of times I have driven against an island in my Russian DDs because I thought "I can make this turn easily, I'm a destroyer!" is way too high.

 

And I haven't even reached the Tashkent yet, which is the DD with the worst rudder shfit time in the game. Looking at those 8,5 secs rudder shift time whenever I check its stats in anticipation makes me question my life choices. 

Or at least my WOWS choices.

[Panocek]

 

Yeah, the amount of times I have driven against an island in my Russian DDs because I thought "I can make this turn easily, I'm a destroyer!" is way too high.

 

And I haven't even reached the Tashkent yet, which is the DD with the worst rudder shfit time in the game. Looking at those 8,5 secs rudder shift time whenever I check its stats in anticipation makes me question my life choices. 

Or at least my WOWS choices.

 

Considering Tier 10 meta now is all about Shimakazes and Yamatos, I don't know where gunboats fits in... And good luck finding Shima properly build for camo - 6km spotting distance with wall of torps, also guns are pretty good in DD dogfights - every salvo knocks gun or two from you

[Kurbain]

 

Considering Tier 10 meta now is all about Shimakazes and Yamatos, I don't know where gunboats fits in... And good luck finding Shima properly build for camo - 6km spotting distance with wall of torps, also guns are pretty good in DD dogfights - every salvo knocks gun or two from you

 

Well, hunt those naughty Shimakazes of course. When me and a friend were driving the Mogami and Des Moines to complete the Myoko mission, most of our kills were Shimakazes. Not because they are out in abundance these days, but because a surprising number of them was stupid enough to let themselves get spotted despite their excellent concealment.

 

Some of them even try to go in for the kill with their guns when you are below 5K health. A 5K health Mogami/Des Moines can still easily kill a DD.

[Panocek]

 

Well, hunt those naughty Shimakazes of course. When me and a friend were driving the Mogami and Des Moines to complete the Myoko mission, most of our kills were Shimakazes. Not because they are out in abundance these days, but because a surprising number of them was stupid enough to let themselves get spotted despite their excellent concealment.

 

Some of them even try to go in for the kill with their guns when you are below 5K health. A 5K health Mogami/Des Moines can still easily kill a DD.

 

But when you're facing 5 of those and even your DDs are running away, you know it won't end well for your Derp Moines... which is too big to evade torps, especially that fast.

[Kurbain]

you know it won't end well for your Derp Moines... which is too big to evade torps, especially that fast.

 

[piritskenyer]

Blyskawica detection range increase upon firing is 3600m.

[Panocek]

 

https://gfycat.com/PoorImpishAmericanriverotter

 

Yay. Now if he would turn away or wouldn't turn into torps/started turning later, he would be confirmed rekt. And you can't just keep sailing towards presumed unspotted DD location, with battleships behind...

[Jay135]

That explains why my Wyoming has been getting so much tin fish spam from invisible sources. I was starting to think it was a glitch. Instead it's derp gameplay. Looks my my BBs are benched till this gets fixed.

[Panocek]

That explains why my Wyoming has been getting so much tin fish spam from invisible sources. I was starting to think it was a glitch. Instead it's derp gameplay. Looks my my BBs are benched till this gets fixed.

 

How one can fix something, that is working as intended?

[xPiiRaTeD]

That explains why my Wyoming has been getting so much tin fish spam from invisible sources. I was starting to think it was a glitch. Instead it's derp gameplay. Looks my my BBs are benched till this gets fixed.

 

Wyomings are easy targets at lower tiers. Slow speed.

[Altharius]

 

How one can fix something, that is working as intended?

It's working a bit too well....

 

I expect vision to be reworked in a patch real soon.

 

Face it, DD are on the rise, WG will never let 1 class dominate the game. Ask CV players what happened to them when they were top dog.

 

[Beardroid91]

Well Flamu just made so videos going over the benefit of using the hydroacoustic on German tier 8+ cruisers, so once people start to fully understand the benefits then DD's are going to be the pray and not the hunters.

 

But if cruiser had more control over their fighter plane then it could be used to spot DD's and kill them faster making their life miserable, and lowering the amount of DD's in the game. 

 

But WG brought this on themselves as they made capping zones give a high XP boost, which it now doesn't do as much, but the damage has been done amd now DD's are every where.

 

[LilJumpa]

It's working a bit too well....

 

I expect vision to be reworked in a patch real soon.

 

Face it, DD are on the rise, WG will never let 1 class dominate the game. Ask CV players what happened to them when they were top dog.

 

 

 

But WG brought this on themselves as they made capping zones give a high XP boost, which it now doesn't do as much, but the damage has been done amd now DD's are every where.

 

 

What are you 2 talking about? 

Probably 75% of all DD players never heard of invisible firing, don't have a 15 skill captain or just don't use it. IJN DDs will most likely go for torpedoupgrades and i have seen many players either not use their guns at all or too excessive.

On top of that: it's more or less theory or usefull for lategames. In the early games there are very few situations where you can actually use this, because every unspotted DD, plane or even IJN Cruiser spots you.

 

The main reason why there are more DDs is the absence of Mid/High Tier CVs. 

[TheJezna]

LilJumpa, on 10 January 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

Thx for the list +1

 

Suggestions:

- maybe add/change a few columns to make it easier to understand the list. The notes you added in your post are essential for understanding some numbers and the stock values are a bit irritating. Examples:

• Column E: Don't use the stock numbers but the ones with the Gun Fire Control System (GFCS). Most people should research that upgrade since it makes sense 99% of the time.
• Column F: Took me a minute to understand that you mean the available module (GFCS). See above.
• Add a few columns with the possible min/max numbers regarding concealment and firing range to better understand the "optimized"
• add air detection ranges if it doesn't bloat the list too much

 

- prem DDs? Blys, Sims, Gremy, Fujin/Kamikaze

 

- Did you consider the captain skill "Basic Fire Training"  for your DPM numbers? If I go for guns on my DDs that skill is essential.

 

 

Last thing that went through my head, which is impossible to add to that list is the logic part about "optimisation". 

RU: Going all guns is a no brainer

US: In higher Tiers you have decision to make since the Torps become a valid option and the bonus you get from captain skills and modules for your guns is relatively small due to the high DPM

IJN: Whoever spends 3 Mio credits on a gun upgrade mod for Kagero or Shima and leaves out the Torpedo modification shouldn't call his DD "optimized" 

 

Theorycrafting, USN/RU derpstroyers can take Main Battery mod 3 (12% faster RoF at cost of 17% turret traverse) and BFT for gun buff, while using Torpedo Armament skill to bump torp reload, as turret traverse should be more than fine anyway. Gearing pew pewing every 2.4s?

 

I prefer both the captain skill and module for torp reload, at least on Fletcher. Even though the guns on it are great, I find that for most of the early and mid game, torpedoes are the more useful weapon, and the guns are plenty fast firing as is: Faster is going into speeds where you don't really make use of it since it's usually a bad idea looking through those sights for to long, I like to zoom out to keep on top of SA between each salvo. And IMO losing train speed is bad, once you get into close range fights those super fast training turrets is a huge advantage, meaning you can manoeuvre in whatever way you like without thinking of where your guns are pointing most of the time.

 

Panocek, on 12 January 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

 

How one can fix something, that is working as intended?

It's working a bit too well....

 

I expect vision to be reworked in a patch real soon.

 

Face it, DD are on the rise, WG will never let 1 class dominate the game. Ask CV players what happened to them when they were top dog.

 

DD's are far from "top dog", and gun based DD's are a very small minority, especially at higher tiers where concealed firing is starting to be a real factor; I'd say I see 10 Kageros for each Fletcher and even fewer Gearings compared to Shimakazes. Besides, it's not like you can constantly stay hidden and do this, even with all the skills and upgrades (well, not AFT since that's useless for a USN DD) there's really just a couple of opportunities a game: Early game you can't since you don't know if there's a DD within 10 km who will spot you, mid game maybe, but still risky. You can only do it safely late in the game when you basically have full awareness of the location of every enemy. That in itself implies it takes a certain amount of player skill as well. And even when it does work out and you can use it you hit for 500-1,000 damage, USN DD's have very low chances of setting fires. Once you do mess up, and someone spots you when attempting this there are incoming shells from every CA on the enemy team starting to drop on you within a couple of seconds and life get's exponentially more difficult for the next 20 seconds until you detection drops again.

 

Yes, DD's are more common now, before 0.5.1 USN DD's was a joke. IJN DD's haven't really been heavily buffed. The single biggest reason for the increase in DD's is the lack of CV's, since the added risk of getting spotted (and often torpedoed) by planes just makes playing DD's to hard for most people.

 

 

As for the rest: The Blyskawica is great for concealed firing as well, and it's shell trajectory actually makes AFT useful for a real buffer range for safe firing. The downside being lower damage than both USN and SN, great chance of fire though; skipping AFT, since you can invisifire without it and going for Demolition Expert to pump that fire chance even further is a real option, pushing the chance of setting a fire with a full salvo over 50%.

 

For the SN boats I don't really think going for stealth is a great idea since it means you need to stay at ranges that are rarely practically possible, even with their excellent shell trajectory. Their base concealment, when not firing is also so big that you commonly get spotted just when moving around. Granted, I'm only at the Kiev for SN boats, so it may be different further up the tiers, but not judging by the numbers. It seems to me much better to just use that speed and get good at dodging and put those captain points into either Last Stand or Demo Expert. Actually, I'd consider skipping a level 5 captain skill with these and get another level 4 and a level 1, maybe combining Demo Expert with AFT would turn out great.

 

Anyways, I'm ranting, thanks for the table, saves me from doing on which I have postponed for to long now

[xPiiRaTeD]

 

I prefer both the captain skill and module for torp reload, at least on Fletcher. Even though the guns on it are great, I find that for most of the early and mid game, torpedoes are the more useful weapon, and the guns are plenty fast firing as is: Faster is going into speeds where you don't really make use of it since it's usually a bad idea looking through those sights for to long, I like to zoom out to keep on top of SA between each salvo. And IMO losing train speed is bad, once you get into close range fights those super fast training turrets is a huge advantage, meaning you can manoeuvre in whatever way you like without thinking of where your guns are pointing most of the time.

 

 

DD's are far from "top dog", and gun based DD's are a very small minority, especially at higher tiers where concealed firing is starting to be a real factor; I'd say I see 10 Kageros for each Fletcher and even fewer Gearings compared to Shimakazes. Besides, it's not like you can constantly stay hidden and do this, even with all the skills and upgrades (well, not AFT since that's useless for a USN DD) there's really just a couple of opportunities a game: Early game you can't since you don't know if there's a DD within 10 km who will spot you, mid game maybe, but still risky. You can only do it safely late in the game when you basically have full awareness of the location of every enemy. That in itself implies it takes a certain amount of player skill as well. And even when it does work out and you can use it you hit for 500-1,000 damage, USN DD's have very low chances of setting fires. Once you do mess up, and someone spots you when attempting this there are incoming shells from every CA on the enemy team starting to drop on you within a couple of seconds and life get's exponentially more difficult for the next 20 seconds until you detection drops again.

 

Yes, DD's are more common now, before 0.5.1 USN DD's was a joke. IJN DD's haven't really been heavily buffed. The single biggest reason for the increase in DD's is the lack of CV's, since the added risk of getting spotted (and often torpedoed) by planes just makes playing DD's to hard for most people.

 

 

As for the rest: The Blyskawica is great for concealed firing as well, and it's shell trajectory actually makes AFT useful for a real buffer range for safe firing. The downside being lower damage than both USN and SN, great chance of fire though; skipping AFT, since you can invisifire without it and going for Demolition Expert to pump that fire chance even further is a real option, pushing the chance of setting a fire with a full salvo over 50%.

 

For the SN boats I don't really think going for stealth is a great idea since it means you need to stay at ranges that are rarely practically possible, even with their excellent shell trajectory. Their base concealment, when not firing is also so big that you commonly get spotted just when moving around. Granted, I'm only at the Kiev for SN boats, so it may be different further up the tiers, but not judging by the numbers. It seems to me much better to just use that speed and get good at dodging and put those captain points into either Last Stand or Demo Expert. Actually, I'd consider skipping a level 5 captain skill with these and get another level 4 and a level 1, maybe combining Demo Expert with AFT would turn out great.

 

Anyways, I'm ranting, thanks for the table, saves me from doing on which I have postponed for to long now

 

Your welcome good sir.

[xPiiRaTeD]

Updated again

 

[RaptorWildfire]

WG created a crap game, [edited]and all with all these invisibilities... I mean they try to keep the real life for most of the ships but give this OP to the DDs... playing in  a BB these days vs 2-4 DDs is an adventure.

[LilJumpa]

What happened to pinning this in the Destroyer Section?

 

Excellent work!

 

Do you mind if I move your thread to the Destroyer game guide section and pin it there?

 

[Lolwut]

Nice work. Thank you respect and plus. 

 

Strangely despite their firing ranges Soviet ships seem to be worst stealth gunners except tier 9 and 10. 

 

But I think most interesting tiers are 6 and 7 

 

Them arcs though!

[MrConway]

What happened to pinning this in the Destroyer Section?

 

 

Nobody replied, but I am moving it now