Let's talk French battleships a bit...

[_DeathWing_]

Tier IX with 15 inch guns lol

[Affeks]

5 hours ago, _DeathWing_ said:

Tier IX with 15 inch guns lol

Important to note that they are good 15" guns... and 12 of them too in a good layout. Looking forward to it.

[piritskenyer]

10 hours ago, _DeathWing_ said:

Tier IX with 15 inch guns lol

 

380mm/45 guns*

 

Guns that had the best penetration of any gun in that calibre class, better than the Italian 381mm/50 and German 380mm/52.

 

Can't overmatch stuff? Who cares, 12 guns. 

 

(sidenote: you should pull yourself out of your "but Flamu said" bubble, it's annoying) 

[Affeks]

2 hours ago, piritskenyer said:

 

380 mm / 45 guns*

 

Guns that had the best penetratiin of any gun in that calibre class, better than the Italian 381mm/50 and german 380mm/45.

 

Cant overmatch stuff? Who cares, 12 guns. 

 

(sidenote: you should pull yourself out of your "but Flamu said" bubble, it's annoying) 

Wait is pen really better than the italian? We know the dispersion is better, but I always though they were slightly worse off in pen..

[piritskenyer]

1 hour ago, Affeks said:

Wait is pen really better than the italian? We know the dispersion is better, but I always though they were slightly worse off in pen..

 

Historically, yes no. It turns out I was wrong, checking the data, the Italian is better at range. In game, I don't know for sure but so far WG has been kind of consistent with real life when it comes to penetration values (or rather their comparative relation).

Checking the tables I have also discovered something rather odd. I was Schroedinger's dataman: I was right AND wrong. The French made shells have better initial pen than the Italian, while the US shells hold pen better. Weird. The dropoff point in pen for the French against the Italians is at 6kyd, where the pen starts to favour the Italians.

 

Effective pen in "/mm against British cemented armour (UK weapon with Supercharges for comparison's sake, FR is the french-made shell, US is the US-made shell)

Range	FR 380/45 FR	FR 380/45 US	IT 381/50	DE 380/52	UK 15"/42 SC
0	32,9" / 835,7mm	30,8" / 792,3mm	31,9"/ 810,3mm	31,1" / 789,9mm	30,5" / 774,7mm
6kyd (5.5km)	26,9" / 683,3mm	26,7" / 678,2mm	27,2" / 690,9mm	25,8" / 655,3mm	25,2" / 640,1mm
12kyd (11km)	21,7" / 551,2mm	22,7" / 576,6mm	22,9" / 581,7mm	21,2" / 538,5mm	20,5" / 520,7mm
20kyd (18.2km)	16,3" / 414mm	17,5" / 444,5mm	18,2" / 462,3mm	16,3" / 414mm	15,9" / 403,9mm

 

Source

 

One (two) other thing(s) to note:

1. The German gun easily underperforms both the French and Italian ones so if someone tells you that they had the best guns, check the relevant box on your sheet of Wehrabingo and flatly tell them to F off.
2. The 15"/42 holds up remarkably well despite its age, even if it admitedly has to make use of supercharges to "keep up". <off> I think Vaguard would be pretty okay using the guns with SC to stay competitive at T8 </off>

 

 

 

[Affeks]

2 hours ago, piritskenyer said:

Checking the tables I have also discovered something rather odd. I was Schroedinger's dataman: I was right AND wrong. The French made shells have better initial pen than the Italian, while the US shells hold pen better. Weird. The dropoff point in pen for the French against the Italians is at 6kyd, where the pen starts to favour the Italians.

Dude I'm looking at ingame stats and 380mm/45 on navweaps, from what I can see it looks like WG is using the muzzle velocity of the original shell (830m/s) while the shell weight is 885 kg which is the weight of the US shell. We know from the footnote that the french shell was either 884 or 890 kg.

 

So I have no idea what the ingame pen curve WG is using. If I had to take a guess itd be the US one because Ive seen a lot of long range citadels on BBs done by CCs... and Im talking citadels that Bismarcks can only dream of.

2 hours ago, piritskenyer said:

1. The German gun easily underperforms both the French and Italian ones so if someone tells you that they had the best guns, check the relevant box on your sheet of Wehrabingo and flatly tell them to F off.

You better delete the post before they catch on mate

 

2 hours ago, piritskenyer said:

1. The 15"/42 holds up remarkably well despite its age, even if it admitedly has to make use of supercharges to "keep up". <off> I think Vaguard would be pretty okay using the guns with SC to stay competitive at T8 </off>

Ive been waiting for that ship for too long. 72k HP on tier 8? yes please!

 

Using SC on Vanguard means a increase in Alpha from 11400 to around 11700 depending on how WG rounds the numbers.

 

On the other hand though I just looked at ingame stats for Monarch, Hood and Warspite, and it seems Monarch is using Hood shells with  104m/s higher velocity... From what I can find on the wows wiki both use mk13a while Warspite ofc uses the much better mk22b that has afaik about 0.02 better drag and x better krupp value. The only difference between Hood and Monarch is that Monarch has a tiiny bit better krupp... Even Navweaps assumes that the 15"mk 2 would have used mk22 AP shells... not the mk 13... It seems to me like it would have been obvious to equip Monarch with mk22 shells and give it some more reliable AP rather than have a weird 25 sec reload...

 

Anyways getting carried away here. Though Vanguard with SC still has lower muzzle velocity than Monarch (804 m/s vs 836m/s), Vanguard will probably have better pen considering it (hopefully) will use the mk22 shells.

 

WG finds weird way to throw curve balls at people like me. One post and 2 weird inconsistencies are relevant..

 

Source: 

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_15-45_mk2.php

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_15-42_mk1.php

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/59528-armor-penetration-curves/

http://wiki.wargaming.net/ru/Ship:Monarch (russian cause english said it used 356mm shells with 381mm gun... Wiki team are doing their job)

 

[piritskenyer]

9 hours ago, Affeks said:

Dude I'm looking at ingame stats and 380mm/45 on navweaps, from what I can see it looks like WG is using the muzzle velocity of the original shell (830m/s) while the shell weight is 885 kg which is the weight of the US shell. We know from the footnote that the french shell was either 884 or 890 kg.

 

So I have no idea what the ingame pen curve WG is using. If I had to take a guess itd be the US one because Ive seen a lot of long range citadels on BBs done by CCs... and Im talking citadels that Bismarcks can only dream of.[...]

 

Weird indeed. I never took the time to check those stats.

 

What I can tell you however is that Frech ships seem to have a very high pen ingame. I'm talking about citadeling a NewMex with Dunkek at 17km range high pen. I cannot tell you about my own personal experience on the other ships unfortunately, as ST NDA is in effect, but yeah, those CC long range citadels man.

 

9 hours ago, Affeks said:

[...]

You better delete the post before they catch on mate

[...]

 

The data is on my side, and facts are stubborn things, so I don't care about wehraboos! What are they gonna do with me anyway? Try to bore me to sleep with their wehraboo BS?

 

9 hours ago, Affeks said:

[...]

Ive been waiting for that ship for too long. 72k HP on tier 8? yes please!

 

Using SC on Vanguard means a increase in Alpha from 11400 to around 11700 depending on how WG rounds the numbers.

 

On the other hand though I just looked at ingame stats for Monarch, Hood and Warspite, and it seems Monarch is using Hood shells with  104m/s higher velocity... From what I can find on the wows wiki both use mk13a while Warspite ofc uses the much better mk22b that has afaik about 0.02 better drag and x better krupp value. The only difference between Hood and Monarch is that Monarch has a tiiny bit better krupp... Even Navweaps assumes that the 15"mk 2 would have used mk22 AP shells... not the mk 13... It seems to me like it would have been obvious to equip Monarch with mk22 shells and give it some more reliable AP rather than have a weird 25 sec reload...

 

Anyways getting carried away here. Though Vanguard with SC still has lower muzzle velocity than Monarch (804 m/s vs 836m/s), Vanguard will probably have better pen considering it (hopefully) will use the mk22 shells.

[...]

 

 

Vanguard F yeah! I was thinking of an alpha in the region of 11.8k, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if it remained at 11.4k. Afterall, based on pen alone, the French 330mm/50 should be punching at around 10-10.5k, but there we are with 9.8k.

 

Odd thing about Monarch indeed. Not really sensible either, as Hood only retained the Mk XIIIa because of the handling equipment not being able to handle the longer 6 crh shells. One might think that if a new weapon was designed then the handling equipment that goes with it would be designed around the new, bigger shell (also with room for even longer shells, you know, just in case).

 

Vanguard would sure as hell use the Mk XXIIb, as that's the only AP shell she ever carried. Putting the supercharges on her would be a bit of a liberty taken, because despite having been made able to use them (and at any elevation, as opposed to earlier mountings), she was never issued them. Also, I was wondering wether the muzzle velocity would be 785 or 804, but that question was quickly answered in the footnotes where it clearly states that while the mountings might have been from older BC's, the guns themselves were issued from the reserve of spares and thus would be new (with the new gun velocity of 804).

 

Anyway, we should open a new thread for this, as this is a clear sidetrack.

[_DeathWing_]

17 hours ago, piritskenyer said:

380mm/45 guns*

 

Guns that had the best penetration of any gun in that calibre class, better than the Italian 381mm/50 and German 380mm/52.

 

Can't overmatch stuff? Who cares, 12 guns. 

 

Oh! Didn't know that. Thx for the info it should be interesting then.