Is visibility model breaking the game?

[mark1e]

I played a few rounds and again I'm exiting the client with Alt + F4 in anger. What's annoying me way more than a game should is the broken visibility model in this game. It's digital in a way, either you see a ship or you don't. So you spot a DD at 3km and in a moment it disappears, then it's visible again, invisible again and so it blinks in and out of existence with a half second frequency.

Why is this stupid? Because a 100m long ship, once spotted would not turn invisible and this mechanic is contrary to the way eyesight works: we tend to spot moving objects and once they're spotted our eyes will track them with ease unless they hide behind an obstacle or move much further away.

 

I'd love to have all the ships visible all the time, but no red markers. Give your own team members blue markers, but enemies don't get a marker: it would be much more fun to focus on the screen to spot the target than to lazily play - abuse the rules on who gets spotted and who doesn't.

 

What do you think?

[EsaTuunanen]

Would you like it more if smoke wasn't layed with intervals but continuously with you not even having chances for those short glimpses when DD moves at over 1/4 speed?

[bloomoon11]

The spotting system is a but cheesy but it is way better than any alternatives I can think of.

 

Just having all ships visible by line of sight would completely wreck the gameplay as the spotting system does at least add some some simple tactical play. 

 

The other alternative that has crossed my mind is to have an exaggerated earth curvature and balance visibility by the height of masts.  But then in order to make aiming possible you'd have to show the outline of the spotted ship (as most of it would be below the horizon) and that to me is far worse than the current on/off system, so I guess that's why it is the way it is.

[Niibler]

I like the current visibility model and personally think it is one of the good things the game has.

The only downside I see in the model is that some people just don't understand it and complain about it without doing a small effort to understand it first.

[KaraMon]

Show me where that big bad DD touched your small fragile battleship 

 

[ironhammer500]

What i do not like is someone can fire and spot me inside smoke, but i can not see a ship firing or spot them....if you fire in smoke it should make you visible.

[IamTroublemaker]

I see what you mean. It can be annoying when a DD pops up, you turn guns towards him, he disappears, then you turn them away, he appears, you turn back to him, he disappears again and so on...

 

[bushwacker001]

What i do not like is someone can fire and spot me inside smoke, but i can not see a ship firing or spot them....if you fire in smoke it should make you visible.

 

Because, for the 1000th time......you are being spotted by another ship NOT in the smoke. 

 

You are/were a beta tester???  gulp

[Sub_Eleven]

What i do not like is someone can fire and spot me inside smoke, but i can not see a ship firing or spot them....if you fire in smoke it should make you visible.

 

They can't spot you when they are inside smoke, they rely on their team to do that for em.

 

Educate yourself before spouting nonsense.

[Niibler]

ironhammer500, on 01 January 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

What i do not like is someone can fire and spot me inside smoke, but i can not see a ship firing or spot them....if you fire in smoke it should make you visible.

 

Maybe someone can go ELI5 mode on this for the 10000th time.

 

Edit:

Disregard, already happened.

[Capra76]

What i do not like is someone can fire and spot me inside smoke, but i can not see a ship firing or spot them....if you fire in smoke it should make you visible.

 

 

It's the same mechanic that allows you to shoot the enemy DD from 3x his detection distance, I'll gladly swap the visibility from smoke for invisibility at range.

[ghostbuster_]

I played a few rounds and again I'm exiting the client with Alt + F4 in anger. What's annoying me way more than a game should is the broken visibility model in this game. It's digital in a way, either you see a ship or you don't. So you spot a DD at 3km and in a moment it disappears, then it's visible again, invisible again and so it blinks in and out of existence with a half second frequency.

Why is this stupid? Because a 100m long ship, once spotted would not turn invisible and this mechanic is contrary to the way eyesight works: we tend to spot moving objects and once they're spotted our eyes will track them with ease unless they hide behind an obstacle or move much further away.

 

I'd love to have all the ships visible all the time, but no red markers. Give your own team members blue markers, but enemies don't get a marker: it would be much more fun to focus on the screen to spot the target than to lazily play - abuse the rules on who gets spotted and who doesn't.

 

What do you think?

well it is really anoying that DDs blink. once you spot a any ship it shouldnt be able to get invisible again in 0.5 sec unless there is a smokescreen. But i cant really agree with you about all ships visible all time. Because it is the only advantage DDs have. And you can not expect to see a shimikaze from the distance that you can barely see a yamato.

[ironhammer500]

So explain why im all alone and i can spot people in my smoke, no one is in spotting range of the guy im seeing but i can still spot him...smoke is buggy as hell people can auto spot you from 3km out...no matter how much ur in smoke or if u fire...

 

Also why do IJN DDs seem to take ages to be spotted? i noticed in my US DD im instantly spotted by an IJN DD but he only pops up at like 4-5km for me....when his range is 6km+

[ghostbuster_]

So explain why im all alone and i can spot people in my smoke, no one is in spotting range of the guy im seeing but i can still spot him...smoke is buggy as hell people can auto spot you from 3km out...no matter how much ur in smoke or if u fire...

 

Also why do IJN DDs seem to take ages to be spotted? i noticed in my US DD im instantly spotted by an IJN DD but he only pops up at like 4-5km for me....when his range is 6km+

 

I play also DDs sometimes but i never had a smoke problem before. They can spot you from 3 km while you are stting in smoke if he used the CA skill (i cant really remember the name).

[TheJezna]

Ranges, all ranges in the game are compressed. Real naval battles occurred at much greater distances than in WoWs where optical spotting was an actual issue. It was also a much more drawn out affair, not very good for an action arcade game. The closest analogue I can think of is this. I used to work in the armed forces as an armor officer. We used a simulation software for training that is also available for individuals to purchase, it's called Steel Beasts. This "game" simulates armored combat at realistic engagement ranges with realistic ordnance and armor capabilities. The graphics might not look very fancy, however what it manages to do is to accurately simulate spotting and firing at units as small as infantrymen at ranges of up to around 10 km, something no AAA game I've seen manages. This simulation, unlike games like WoT, AW etc doesn't rely on artificial spotting mechanics, if you see something you do. Due to how terrain is actually modeled tree by tree out to maximum viewing distances and the vast amount of space you have to watch it's still immensely more difficult to spot units than in those mentioned games. Simulation rounds also tend to last very much longer, where most of the time is spent waiting, scouting and maneuvering, just like in real combat; once action is joined it is generally a pretty swift affair. In real combat, pitched battles between equal adversaries are extremely uncommon, all that maneuvering and scouting is done to enforce a situation where you have local superiority and can take out the enemy with minimal friendly casualties sustained while preventing the enemy of achieving the same.

 

Now, in naval combat there is no terrain, making spotting easier. At the same time, engagement ranges are not 3-10 km, it's rather 30-100, and you have to maintain vigilance over the entire area around your units out to the horizon to detect enemy ships. In modern times it's even worse since modern naval weapons have beyond the horizon capabilities and air is dominant, but in the period of WoWs you generally would "only" have to worry about ships inside  the horizon, except carriers of course who would stay out of visible range of any artillery capable enemy. Now, in WoWs, looking through the binoculars is not really like what's looking through a binoculars at see really looks. In reality, you can't just look in one direction and see everything between yourself and the horizon in that sector, you have to actively move your vision in the depth dimension as well. This meant that even with dozens of people actively on spotting duty in a warship they couldn't watch the entire viewable area at once. Add to this weather making spotting more difficult, the occasional island or land feature, artificial smoke (which is way more massive than in game) and I assure you a realistic scale and spotting model would mean it would be much more difficult to spot ships, not easier. The scale would, just like in the tank example, also mean engagements would last hours and days, not 20 minutes.

 

Then we have the "gaming" factor: With four classes in the game, all four needs to be playable and enjoyable, and fairly balanced. I can't really think of another mechanic that would work both to make the game enjoyable and fast paced enough and make each class playable, but maybe I'm overlooking something?

[Semillon]

TheJezna,

 

Well explained (however, the kiddies in here will see the amount of text and skip it).

 

Sem ;-)

[Captain_Edwards]

Then we have the "gaming" factor: With four classes in the game, all four needs to be playable and enjoyable, and fairly balanced. I can't really think of another mechanic that would work both to make the game enjoyable and fast paced enough and make each class playable, but maybe I'm overlooking something?

 

Personally I think a fade in and out would be better rather than the abrupt vanishing act ships pull. Plus the vision system needs more work imo. I find it rather ridiculous with things like carriers having half its hull hidden behind an island makes the whole ship vanish. Simply due to the way the spotting system works.

[ironhammer500]

 

Personally I think a fade in and out would be better rather than the abrupt vanishing act ships pull. Plus the vision system needs more work imo. I find it rather ridiculous with things like carriers having half its hull hidden behind an island makes the whole ship vanish. Simply due to the way the spotting system works.

 

Same rubbish as in WoT, a Is-7 could hide behind a house with its gun poking out because the other points for detection where hidden...

[EsaTuunanen]

...Add to this weather making spotting more difficult, the occasional island or land feature, artificial smoke (which is way more massive than in game) and I assure you a realistic scale and spotting model would mean it would be much more difficult to spot ships, not easier.

And the spotting would be the easy part compared to actually figuring out where to aim for hitting the enemy.

[BabyAdmiral]

I appreciate the arcadeness WoWs offer, and the spotting system is one of its upsides. I've never been a fan of simulators - I'm a gamer at heart. I like it when gameplay is "black and white", where everything have clearly defined limitations and possibilities.

[anonym_hqO9wrVAEQYQ]

I don't have an issue with the visability model due to it being a game. But I have an issue with things like. If a ship is on fire then how can it go invisable. If you are on fire then the visabilty should increase for all ships. Also why can a carrier remain invisable while loading and unlaoding planes. They should be spotted for miles due to planes landing and taking off. Fix these issues and I can live with the rest. But yes a fade  out would be nice. or if you are looking directly at a ship the it should remian visable for longer due to you being aware of it.

[EsaTuunanen]

But I have an issue with things like. If a ship is on fire then how can it go invisable. If you are on fire then the visabilty should increase for all ships

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/14258-basics-spotting-mechanics/

 

And if cruiser to BB length ship with huge structure high above water line is so stealthty as they're in game planes landing&taking off would be buzzing of fly compared to that.

[Unintentional_submarine]

And the spotting would be the easy part compared to actually figuring out where to aim for hitting the enemy.

 

Mirage effects, haze, false bow wakes... 50 second long travel time for shells. Yes, I think people would quite seriously rip their hair out if these things ever made an entry.

[Altharius]

 

Mirage effects, haze, false bow wakes... 50 second long travel time for shells. Yes, I think people would quite seriously rip their hair out if these things ever made an entry.

 

Amen to that! 

[Zathras_Grimm]

What i do not like is someone can fire and spot me inside smoke, but i can not see a ship firing or spot them....if you fire in smoke it should make you visible.

 

Actually you can't always see out of smoke either.