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German Battlecruiser design (1928) - The next Pocket Battleship

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Alpha Tester
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German Battlecruiser design (1928) - The next Pocket Battleship

 

 

I want to share some infos about a very unknown german battlecruiser design from 1928 as part of Admiral Zenker's fleet building program

this german BC design would have been the "successor" of the famous "Deutschland-class", also known as "Pocket Battleships"

these ships were originally planed as the ultimative raiders of their time, exceeting the Deutschlands by far

with a top-speed of 34 knts, an armament of 8x12" and 9x5.9", these ships would have been larger, faster and better armed than the Deutschland, while the armor would be very similar.

 

 

 

2zxnnzn.jpg

 

 

Dimensions

 

Length (water line)

206.0 meters

Beam

 25.0 meters

Designed Draught

  7.8 meters

Moulded Depth

 13.3 meters

Machinery

Four turbines driving four shafts

Power

160,000 SHP

Speed

34 knots

Bunkerage (Oil)

3200 metric tonnes

Armour

 

Main Belt

100 mm

Bow Belt

 80 mm

Stern Belt

 80 mm

Main Deck

 25 mm

Armoured Deck (inner)

 30 mm

Armoured Deck (outer)

 20 mm

Barbettes

250 mm

Main Turrets

250 mm

Conning Tower   

250 mm

Torpedo Bulkhead

 20 mm

Armament

 

Main Guns

8 x 305 mm (55 calibre) in four twin turrets

Secondary guns

9 x 150 mm (55 calibre) in three triple turrets

Main AA Guns

4 x  88 mm AA guns

Weight distribution

 

Hull

 5,492 tons (28.6%)

Armour

 4,626 tons (24.1%)

Engines

 3,937 tons (20.5%)

Auxiliary Machinery

    492 tons (2.6%)

Armament

 2,362 tons (12.3%)

Equipment

    590 tons (3.1%)

Total

17,499 tons (91.2%)

44% fuel

  1,378 tons (7.2%)

Boiler feed water     

     315 tons (1.6%)

Design Displacement

19,192 tons (100%)

source: http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/21297/Admiral-Zenkers-warship-designs?page=1#.UtsIT7QweM8

 

 

 

 

Admiral Zenker's fleet building program

quoted from "The Weimar Republic’s Fleet, 2013" by Mike Bennighof, Ph.D.

source: http://www.avalanchepress.com/WeimarFleet.php?mode=print

 

"Vice-Admiral Hans Zenker, the Reichsmarine’s commander from 1924 to 1928, prepared the navy’s building program around this assumption. Germany would have to interrupt maritime contact between France and Poland, prevent French landings on the German coast, and conduct long-range commerce warfare against French interests. The fleet the Nazis would eventually inherit was built to Zenker’s specifications. When the Reichstag believed Zenker had pressed too hard for new ships, he gave way to Erich Raeder, who took a much slower approach and would lead the navy into the Second World War.

 

The Reichsmarine’s first ships were a passel of leftover veterans of the pre-dreadnought era: eight battleships and eight light cruisers, plus 12 destroyers and 12 torpedo boats. The navy was limited to 15,000 men, so even this small fleet could not all be operational and two of the battleships were disarmed and used as tenders while two others remained in reserve.

The navy was allowed to replace its cruisers when they became 20 years old, and this exception applied to all of them by 1922. The Reichsmarine laid down the light cruiser Emden in late 1921 to a design very similar to the High Seas Fleet’s final class of cruisers. Only six of the allowed eight cruisers could be in service at any one time, so during the rest of the 1920s the navy laid down four more modern light cruisers as well. Runaway inflation and economic collapse delayed these for a couple of years. A final cruiser to make the full six, which became Nürnberg, was in turn delayed by the outbreak of the Great Depression and not laid down until 1934. Though this came after the republic’s fall, she was part of the Reichsmarine program rather than the Nazi one that followed.

Germany was not a party to the Washington Naval Limitations Treaty of 1922; she had her own limitations imposed by the Treaty of Versailles. Warships could not exceed 10,000 tons and could not be armed with guns larger than 11-inch (280mm). This would, it was apparently supposed, yield only coast-defense ships similar to those operated by the Swedish navy.

 

Zenker famously manipulated these limits to produce the armored cruiser Deutschland. She had thin protection but very long range, as befitted her role as a commerce raider. German propaganda claimed she could outrun what she could not outfight, and outfight what she could not outrun. Though not exactly true, it made a good tag line.

During the 1920s, many navies looked at building what the naval journals of the time called a “Washington Treaty Cruiser Killer.” This was a ship of high speed and light armor, designed to destroy the “treaty cruisers” of the time. The Washington treaties limited heavy cruisers to 10,000 tons and an armament of 8-inch guns, but put no limit on their length. Thus most navies built very long ships of relatively high speed and thin armor.

Battleships, meanwhile, were limited to 35,000 tons and 16-inch guns. Plus each signatory had an overall tonnage limit. Some thinkers pointed out that two 17,500-ton ships with large-caliber guns could be built on the allotted tonnage for one battleship. The Washington Naval Treaty set 17,500 tons as the minimum displacement for a ship carrying guns larger than 8 inches, acknowledging this possibility. Italy actually authorized a pair of such ships in 1928, but the Great Depression scuttled them.

Zenker wanted a pair of them for the Germany navy as well. Germany had re-entered world diplomacy in 1925 with the Locarno Pact, and appeared well on her way to re-joining the family of nations. He seems to have thought an increase in the Versailles tonnage limit could be negotiated, as well as an increase in main gun caliber from 11 inches to the 12-inch size then being advocated by the British for all nations.

 

Accordingly, he ordered a design prepared along those lines. His cruiser killer would have good range and a thin skin, and carry eight 12-inch guns in four double turrets. Secondary guns would be nine 5.9-inch guns in the same turrets then in production for K-type cruisers, and she’d have a bank of three torpedo tubes on either side. Her armor would be the same as Deutschland, then also in the design stage, but she would have considerably greater speed (34 knots against 28). Her range would be less than Deutschland, as she carried turbines like the last Imperial battlecruiser designs rather than diesels like Deutschland.

 

This ship would have little chance in battle against a true battleship; her cruiser-scale armor would not stand up to heavy guns. But with a speed of 34 knots, hopefully she wouldn’t have to, and could run down and destroy enemy cruisers from well outside their gunnery range.

International diplomacy did not in fact yield the agreements for which Zenker hoped; German diplomats don’t appear to have even asked for them."

 

 

 

German design plans: 1923 – 1928

 

Design

 

 

Date

Plant

SHP

Shaft

 

 

Kts

Belt

 

(mm)

C/T

 

(mm)

Turret

 

(mm)

Guns

 

(mm)

Turret type +

 

Distribution

Guns

 

(mm)

Mount

 

type

AA

II/10

1923

Turbine coal/oil

25,000

2

22

200

200

 

380

1x2 fore

 

1x2 aft

150

2x2

2x88

 

2x50

I/10

 

 

1923

Turbine

 

oil

80,000

2

32

80

100

 

210

2x2 fore

 

2x2 aft

 

 

4x88

 

8x50

II/30

 

 

1925

diesel

24,000

3

21

200

200

 

305

1x2 fore

 

2x2 aft

 

 

3x105

IV/30

 

 

1925

diesel

24,000

3

21

180

200

 

305

3x2 fore

150

2x2

3x105

V/30

 

 

1925

diesel

24,000

3

21

180

200

 

305

1x3 fore

 

1x3 aft

150

6x1

3x88

I/28

 

 

1925

diesel

24,000

3

21

240

250

250

280

1x3 fore

 

1x3 aft

150

2x2

6x88

II/28

 

 

1925

diesel

24,000

3

21

230

230

230

280

1x2 fore

 

2x2 offset aft

150

4x1

4x88

VI/30

 

 

1925

diesel

24,000

3

21

250

300

350

305

1x2 fore

 

1x2 aft

150

2x2

6x88

VII/30

 

 

1925

diesel

24,000

3

21

250

300

350

305

2x2 offset fore

150

2x2

4x88

I/35

 

 

1925

diesel

16,000

2

19

300

 

 

350

1x3 fore

150

2x2

4x88

II/35

 

 

1925

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VIII/30

 

 

1925

diesel

36,000

3

24

180

200

200

305

1x2 fore

 

1x2 aft

 

 

6x88

I M 26

 

 

1926

diesel

54,000

2

28

100

100

100

280

1x3 fore

 

1x3 aft

120

 4x2 DP

 

II M 26

 

 

1926

diesel

54,000

2

28

100

100

100

280

1x3 fore

 

1x3 aft

120 

 4x2 DP

6x37

Type A

 

 

1927

diesel

 

 

18

250

 

 

380

1x2 fore

 

1x2 aft

 

 

 

Type B1

 

 

1927

diesel

 

 

18

250

 

 

305

1x3 fore

 

1X3 aft

 

 

 

Type B2

 

 

1927

diesel

 

 

21

200

 

 

305

1x3 fore

 

1x3 aft

 

 

 

Type C

 

 

1927

diesel

 

 

26

100

 

 

280

1x3 fore

 

1x3 aft

 

 

 

BC

1928

Turbine

 

Fuel oil

160,000

4

34

100

250

250

305

2x2 fore

 

2x2 aft

150

3x3

4x88

source: http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/21297/Admiral-Zenkers-warship-designs?page=1#.UtsIT7QweM8

 

 

Admiral Zenker (1870-1932), leader of the German Imperial Navy 1924-1928

 

220px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-13764%2C_Han

 

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Alpha Tester
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+1 from me. Looks a bit like Kongo class. Anyway, would be a good material for tier IV battlecruiser.

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Sailing Hamster
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A nice battlecruiser indeed. I didn't know this design so thank you for sharing!

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Alpha Tester
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+1

Nice post, pre-war ships are often forgotten about, don't believe I've seen this one before

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Players
211 posts

 

 

Great article and thanks for the chart on Zenkers fleet. I had lost that and was searching the net for it. I guess AGS was a cross between ``Type C`` & ``II M26``  Any one know what ``DP`` guns they are refereeing to for the secondaries at this time (late 1920¨.....


 


 

The surface raider that Grand Admiral Raeder was looking for had to operate in the southern hemisphere ,oceans away to force the British to deploy their BC and heavy CA away from the home fleet. That way the faster German battle fleet could bait and attack Home fleet and use their superior speed to make to break off when they wanted. Trouble is the Germans  didn't`t really have a `battle fleet` until about 1941, so building a Battle cruiser in the late 1920s made little sense. What they needed was exactly want Raeder's 1928-32 naval plan called for ...6 more improved PBS better able to defeat all British Cruisers.


 

The diesel Pocket Battleships were the only way to go in the late 1920s to mid 1930s. The fact that these PBS could not out run heavy British cruisers was a result of timing as these designs were not known to the Germans in the mid 1920s. The base armor of the PBS was enough to defeat the British 6" shells as was shown at the River Plate battle. Only the 8" guns could penetrate into the vitals.

Edited by psl_58

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unknown.png

Since the original picture isn't available anymore, here's an illustration from the russian "war at sea" magazine

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Beta Tester
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Incredible.

 

For the first time in my life, I can bestow upon a formum dweller the legendary Enchanted Diamond Shovel.

You have earned it.

 

CdIrwercGp_bWR1lSyfFUfvJTGzOTX7SOI3lxFculC2-O5Ir3H6dpXqROwr3gofW6ib2ftc=s85

What ? Did you expect it to be huge ?

The enchanted diamond shovel is invertly proportional to the size of the hole you just dug. Be glad you can still see it at all... This is just its "SEVEN YEARS AGO JESUS CHRIST" form.

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18 hours ago, LastButterfly said:

Incredible.

 

For the first time in my life, I can bestow upon a formum dweller the legendary Enchanted Diamond Shovel.

You have earned it.

 

CdIrwercGp_bWR1lSyfFUfvJTGzOTX7SOI3lxFculC2-O5Ir3H6dpXqROwr3gofW6ib2ftc=s85

What ? Did you expect it to be huge ?

The enchanted diamond shovel is invertly proportional to the size of the hole you just dug. Be glad you can still see it at all... This is just its "SEVEN YEARS AGO JESUS CHRIST" form.

I get frustrated while trying to research history stuff on the forums and images are 404'd, so i figured i'd necro the thread.... it's for a good cause! 

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Beta Tester
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3 hours ago, Kingpin6100 said:

I get frustrated while trying to research history stuff on the forums and images are 404'd, so i figured i'd necro the thread.... it's for a good cause! 

 

Nah, it's a fair reason to necro. But I just couldn't pass on the occasion of a necro from november 2014... This might just be a record on this forum.

Anyway, if you're researching history stuff, and since we're here, friendly reminder to double check historical infos you find on forums (any forum really)~ More than one got tricked by the collection of true and false information they can contain...

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On 5/22/2021 at 12:03 AM, LastButterfly said:

 

Nah, it's a fair reason to necro. But I just couldn't pass on the occasion of a necro from november 2014... This might just be a record on this forum.

Anyway, if you're researching history stuff, and since we're here, friendly reminder to double check historical infos you find on forums (any forum really)~ More than one got tricked by the collection of true and false information they can contain...

Oh, yeah, never use forums if it's at all possible. I use the forums to find sources, it's ok for that for sure

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