Destroyers

[MF_Halsey]

It is in concern for overall improvement of the game.  The ability of Destroyers to remain concealed even when within range of 8k is untenable.  It is obvious that the designers of this game have not spent any time at sea on naval vessels.  Unless the conditions are fog enshrouded or obscured (smoke screen or an island), most ships have a line of sight capability of at least 10k from a standard bridge. Large ships of the line have a LOS of significantly farther due to the height of the spotters stations in the mast heads.  This is especially true of WW1 and WW2 ships.  These ships relied on LOS as it was before the advent of ship mounted Radar fire control systems (post 1943).  The advantage the destroyer has, as a result of this, shown a distinct lack of historical background knowledge.  Most destroyers worked in flotillas and made mass attacks on the main line of battle.  This resulted in heavy losses in the destroyer fleets with little return on damage to Capital ships.  It would not hurt the game in the least to extend the LOS identification to 8 to 10k.  This would force the Destroyers to become more adept Captains in the attack. 

 

[StuntMan0369]

Oh boy, another thread about DD spotting ranges. Look, it's a game, not a 100% realistic simulator. Wargaming makes arcade games based off history, but they have to make compromises for the sake of game balance. I've played both sides, and it's very well balanced in the mid tiers. Smart captains can dodge a DD's attacks easily, and a good DD can wreak havoc on an enemy. You mostly play DD's (and below average stat-wise), and yet you want to make it harder on yourself? 

 

It'll be fun to see how this one pans out. 

[RamirezKurita]

I'd rather if they just buffed the hydroacoustic search to actually be useful rather than it currently being useless in comparison to AA defensive fire (even though carriers are a rare sight these days!).

[IamTroublemaker]

Thats why this game isnt a simulation but an arcade.

 

If you are experienced enough then you know where destroyers might pop up and chose your route carefully and dont separste fron your teammates, that is how you neuralize a destroyer.

[Spellfire40]

Actually they did but its a arcade game and DDs need to be able to deal with BBs and CAs one at one too. In real live DDs were never 1 one 1 agist CAs or BBs. Funny when people allways go for the "realism" card when something dont go their way while totaly ignoring that repairing a BB takes a Drydock and 6 month plus of time.

in 2 words:

ITS ARCADE !!

[MF_Halsey]

I am not against The DD, I play it as much as I do my Cruisers and BB's.  I am not upset when I get surprised by the good DD trap.  In fact when I am using my BB I stay clear of the narrow channels that give a good DD captain the distinct advantage.  I have watched the inexperienced DD Captain go down rapidly when he did not. What I am saying on this post is that in the open water setting this advantage is a severe drawback to good game play and detracts from the over all game.

 

[Spellfire40]

I am not against The DD, I play it as much as I do my Cruisers and BB's.  I am not upset when I get surprised by the good DD trap.  In fact when I am using my BB I stay clear of the narrow channels that give a good DD captain the distinct advantage.  I have watched the inexperienced DD Captain go down rapidly when he did not. What I am saying on this post is that in the open water setting this advantage is a severe drawback to good game play and detracts from the over all game.

 

 

What your saying is that ships with higher masts should domiate upen waters when open water gives said ships allready the advantage of not being restricted in Movement. DDs are balaced by their detection range. an spoted dd under 10km from another ship is very soon a dead dd. Or do you want all DDs like the RU ones at higher level? Taking 22 203 mm HE shells and sinking cruisers in a strait fight?

[MF_Halsey]

Spellfire, that is what I am saying.  The farther a ship can see gives it the advantage in a firefight.  BB's guns cannot traverse as fast as the DD's nor do they have the Rapid fire guns.  The DD's will need to utilize speed and manuever to a greater extent.  It would also require players to understand how to operate in a fleet rather than Rambo tactics.   I know I am not the best player as I have just begun playing the game.  I use Co-Op mode to learn the basics of the ship class then move to the random to improve those skills in each class.  I do believe it is just a game (Arcade style at that) and I will improve in my skills as my game time progresses and I learn how to utilize the advantages and disadvantages.  The spotting of destroyers at greater ranges (Open Water Settings) I feel would be an improvement not a limiting factor.

[Zathras_Grimm]

Spellfire, that is what I am saying.  The farther a ship can see gives it the advantage in a firefight.  BB's guns cannot traverse as fast as the DD's nor do they have the Rapid fire guns.  The DD's will need to utilize speed and manuever to a greater extent.  It would also require players to understand how to operate in a fleet rather than Rambo tactics.   I know I am not the best player as I have just begun playing the game.  I use Co-Op mode to learn the basics of the ship class then move to the random to improve those skills in each class.  I do believe it is just a game (Arcade style at that) and I will improve in my skills as my game time progresses and I learn how to utilize the advantages and disadvantages.  The spotting of destroyers at greater ranges (Open Water Settings) I feel would be an improvement not a limiting factor.

 

The only problem is if you are stating DDs should be seen farther out then how will it ever get close enough to launch torps? As soon as a group of ships see a DD on course for their position they will open up on it. With low armour it's goodbye DD! Your example seems to indicate that it's a lone BB with slow guns and reloading, where's all the other ships?

Many already have an idea of how to operate a fleet:  DDs and aircraft spotting (then acquiring targets of opportunity), CAs supporting DDs and BBs, BBs firing at who they want. It just doesn't always happen but that's war. 

[lordofhavoc]

Mimimi, Mimimi, mimi all the way......

 

[3mg4]

It do not need to be overly realistic, but somethings is wrong with those little bastards, they appear 4 k in front of you right from nothing you shoot one salve on them they disappear and appear on a complete different spot again (they move fast;-) 

this is not so funny!

 

i know there are several topics about this matter, if my laptop would be strong enough I would record a video of one of my games, but I think everybody above tier 5 knows this issue. 

 

 

[Zathras_Grimm]

It do not need to be overly realistic, but somethings is wrong with those little bastards, they appear 4 k in front of you right from nothing you shoot one salve on them they disappear and appear on a complete different spot again (they move fast;-) 

this is not so funny!

 

i know there are several topics about this matter, if my laptop would be strong enough I would record a video of one of my games, but I think everybody above tier 5 knows this issue. 

 

 

 

What DD has a 4k detection range above tier 5? Also if we don't have to be realistic can we super buff the DDs so that BBs cant one shot kill us; as that is not so funny either?

 

The game has more than one ship in it, start working as a team and DDs won't pop up '4km' away. 

 

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

Anybody wants to have his revenge on those nasty little  buggers (= DDs)?

 

Buy a Warspite.

Give the captain the skillset for enhance secondry gun range. Use flags and available upgrades to enhance secondry range. Then see the little buggers pop up when the come at about 8 klicks to you and dare to get visible...

[MF_Halsey]

Again, Destroyers are not undetectable until they get to within 4k.  This gives them a unjust advantage to the game.  As for the immature beta tester that screams mimimimi, he obviously hasn't a clue on logical discourse so can be discounted as the rider of the little bus.  If you cannot see this you're part of the problem.

 

[AgarwaenME]

Sure, increase spotting distance to "realistic" levels.

 

And then give DDs actually historical torpedo ranges and torpedo detection difficulties.

 

One might ask why you didn't mention that lack of realism of course. One might ask if you possibly cherry picked one specific case of lack of "realism". One could even say you're just using the realism card to cover yet another "omg nerf what sinks me" whine. You wouldn't be doing just that would you?

[LetsRockAndRoll]

Again, Destroyers are not undetectable until they get to within 4k.  This gives them a unjust advantage to the game.  As for the immature beta tester that screams mimimimi, he obviously hasn't a clue on logical discourse so can be discounted as the rider of the little bus.  If you cannot see this you're part of the problem.

 

 

Sorry, but there isn't a single DD in this game with a 4km detection range. Even with cammo + concealment module +  concealment expert skill.

 

[MF_Halsey]

@ Zathras Grimm, I am pretty well versed in reality of battle at sea having served on large Warships of the dimensions I am speaking about.  Destroyers Captains in this game and, for the most part, players have no earthly idea of how to function as a team.  They all move independently and hope the group they are with has some clue as to how to cover each other.  I will qualify this by saying that I have rarely seen more than one or two players from the same Division in one battle on either side of the teams formed.  When the game forms battles where whole divisions of players form the teams the discussion of true fleet tactics is a moot point.

[MF_Halsey]

LetsRock and Roll the last battle I was in a DD did not show in my view until it was 3.6k from me then disappeared just as fast.  Explain that away.  Open water no islands.

 

[MF_Halsey]

At Argawaen, yes allow for realistic torpedo ranges 3k is suicide for a torpedo run, Russian DD's are a prime example.  For those upper level Destroyers whose artillery power approaches that of Cruisers that is an extra bonus.  Again it enhances the game. True realism is unattainable in an Arcade set up, but detection ranges around 6k would be more realistic in the game environment presented.

 

[LetsRockAndRoll]

LetsRock and Roll the last battle I was in a DD did not show in my view until it was 3.6k from me then disappeared just as fast.  Explain that away.  Open water no islands.

 

 

Well, my statement can't be disputed as it is a fact. So I would guess your enemy DD popped in and out of a smoke screen. Other explanations could be packet loss, lag, a slow machine etc.

 

 

[MF_Halsey]

LetsRock and Roll, yes lag could be an explanation but no smoke.  I agree with the smoke screen attack, that is a valid screening use the DD has.  I am not trying to down play the destroyer just bring it out of a super-ship status that is seems to have due to its undetecability.

[LetsRockAndRoll]

LetsRock and Roll, yes lag could be an explanation but no smoke.  I agree with the smoke screen attack, that is a valid screening use the DD has.  I am not trying to down play the destroyer just bring it out of a super-ship status that is seems to have due to its undetecability.

 

DD's are far from 'super ships' and I play them a lot. The most powerful DD's at the moment going by stats are the Kiev & Udaloi and they don't use torps as a primary weapon. The DD's that rely on stealth and torps can have good games but CV's and spotter planes are always there to spoil the fun. Don't forget, once a torpedo is spotted, it stays spotted. So that drop is useless and the DD will now have to wait quite a while before it can try again, plus everyone knows a DD is in the area.

There's also the fact that DD's have lower average damage stats than most other classes, which again makes them far from 'super ship' status.

 

 

[Mayv]

The lowest you can get your detection range on a DD is 4.7km which is on the Tachibana at tier 2. Spotting a DD at 3.6km with no islands nearby is probably due to smoke especially since smoke isnt clearly shown when aiming down the sights.

[Zathras_Grimm]

@ Zathras Grimm, I am pretty well versed in reality of battle at sea having served on large Warships of the dimensions I am speaking about.  Destroyers Captains in this game and, for the most part, players have no earthly idea of how to function as a team.  They all move independently and hope the group they are with has some clue as to how to cover each other.  I will qualify this by saying that I have rarely seen more than one or two players from the same Division in one battle on either side of the teams formed.  When the game forms battles where whole divisions of players form the teams the discussion of true fleet tactics is a moot point.

 

What sea battles did you serve in, tried to find the country you come from. Falklands in 80's? What position and rank were you or ships did you serve in (genuine interest!)?

 

I'd also be interested in what way the destroyers did not do as they were told, as I am begining to feel you got caught with your shorts down and are trying to blame other players(?) On one side your saying DDs do not know what they are doing, yet you curse them for managing to come up to your front door and take a dump on your lawn (sounds like pretty effective play by a DD); which is it?

Unfortunately as I have already stated players do not always work as a team we all have to deal with it. I always have to measure how far I scout forward as part of playing as a team and where my support is. Others team members may not support me (they could be in the middle of their own fight), but if an enemy wishes to follow me back to my line then you soon find your team will take notice and fire at them.

 

Teamplay goes both ways, for instance I am responsible for my torpedoes, if they should hit a friendly that is my fault. Many times I have had to see possible kills fade away because smaller CAs have closed in for the kill between me and the target.

Having served on Warships you should know to check your immediate and outer perimeter (surroundings), know your role, where you are and the support you have (and can give others!) and remember that in a game where you can kill or be killed at some point your likely to get killed! 

[T0byJug]

At Argawaen, yes allow for realistic torpedo ranges 3k is suicide for a torpedo run, Russian DD's are a prime example.  For those upper level Destroyers whose artillery power approaches that of Cruisers that is an extra bonus.  Again it enhances the game. True realism is unattainable in an Arcade set up, but detection ranges around 6k would be more realistic in the game environment presented.

 

ALL DD above tier 4 have over 6km detection range. Lowest detection on a DD is the Tachibana at tier 2 (5.4km)

 

Camo can reduce this by 3 or 5% (cant remeber which) even 5% is 250M so detection even at tier 2 is over 5km

 

There is a commander skill that can decrease detection range more but as its a tier 5 skill so you need about 300,000 + XP on  the commander to get it I would be surprised if you have met one on a DD lower that tier 5 or 6 unless maybe a prem DD

 

 

 

Please remeber this is a game and as such they try to make all ships viable against each other. Real world navy has no bearing here and unless your about 80 or 90 years. experience in naval combat in the age of over the horizon Missile combat has little bearing in Gun action.

 

IF WG made the game more realistic like you claim. DD's would have almost no role in the game.