Fonfalks Players 539 posts 11,322 battles Report post #1 Posted December 24, 2015 Seems like IJN DDs at high end are close to unplayable. Its impossible to have a decent game when you are surrounded by crazy number of gunboats from all possible sides. MM has been nuts we all know that, but when IJN DD has to face pocked cruisers like ALL THE GOD DAMN USA, RUSSIAN AND POLISH DDs it becomes unplayable. Yes i have all the possible stealth skills and upgrades, but its just too unbalanced - if you get detected by ANY of these gunboats you will probably die unless you have help from cruisers (lets be realistic cruisers will not help you 95% of time). How is it balanced when even T7 of any of these DDs=gun boats= small cruisers can just obliterate any IJN DD? And the biggest problem is there are so many of these gunboats these days, every game i get at least 3 sometimes 4 and i have even seen 5. ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAY LIKE THAT. Sorry if this seems like a whine post but i am just outraged now by how games have been lately, i can tell you i have spotted gun boats, done best to avoid being spotted, showed those gunboats to cruisers, asked for help in killing them, asked for help capping base, etc, i have asked kindly, i have asked again and again, i have used focus target, i have asked in small letters, in caps and i have cursed, nothing helps. Cruisers ignore DDs. They just dont care. Cruisers just sail by while i try to fight/run away from well basically anything that is classified as USA, USSR or Polish DDs... Reality of this game is that IJN DDs have to engage vs these gunboats 1:1 VERY OFTEN and its just a lost battle 100% of time. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MayukaProject Players 55 posts 5,528 battles Report post #2 Posted December 24, 2015 I dont know why are you complain about them... their torps are detected more later (takes more time to be detected) than the russian, and american counterpart. and in case you dont know the rudder speed from BB's have been reduzed so its more easy to kill them. Take a look on the patch notes mate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fonfalks Players 539 posts 11,322 battles Report post #3 Posted December 24, 2015 I dont know why are you complain about them... their torps are detected more later (takes more time to be detected) than the russian, and american counterpart. and in case you dont know the rudder speed from BB's have been reduzed so its more easy to kill them. Take a look on the patch notes mate. I think you totally misunderstood what i am writing about. I am writing about balance between INJ DDs(at high tiers especially) VS every other DD that are actually gunboats.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fonfalks Players 539 posts 11,322 battles Report post #4 Posted December 24, 2015 Played few more games as usual killed by gunboats, Kagero feels like T3 vs T7, T8, T9. I cant understand why such obvious and absurd disbalance is allowed in this game. Can you imagine if say Izumo would have NO CHANCE when fighting USA BBs of T7,T8,T9? There would be outrage, it would be not acceptable. But problem is even deeper - IJN DDs have no chance vs USA gunboats AND USSR gunboats AND Polish T7 gunboat. I cant understand how this can be acceptable. Only solution at the moment is to stay way way way back and spam torpedoes and hope you hit something, but if i EVER try to come close so i can actually do something algorithm goes like this 1)Spot gunboat first 2)While you turn you get spotted 3)Gunboat opens fire 4)Smoke and run 5)Back to one but now with no smoke .... 6)Death 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BLOBS] Spellfire40 Beta Tester 5,330 posts 13,776 battles Report post #5 Posted December 25, 2015 Gunboat DDs have larger detection range they only a problem for IJN DDs if an enemy IJN is doing the spoting. Have little Probems up to Fubuki just dont expect to get into a knifefight with an US or RU DD and come out on top without some CA backup. Otherwise just leave the cap (or Flank ect.)if your team dont suport you it shouldnt expect you to hold off an supirior enemy that kills you fast on your own. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fonfalks Players 539 posts 11,322 battles Report post #6 Posted December 25, 2015 Gunboat DDs have larger detection range they only a problem for IJN DDs if an enemy IJN is doing the spoting. Have little Probems up to Fubuki just dont expect to get into a knifefight with an US or RU DD and come out on top without some CA backup. Otherwise just leave the cap (or Flank ect.)if your team dont suport you it shouldnt expect you to hold off an supirior enemy that kills you fast on your own. Problem is if they they (reds gunboats) are everywhere. This happens so often - i encounter 1 gunboat on one flank so i think ok it almost killed me but i had smoke so i survived, ill change flanks, i sail for a long time doing nothing (hi low XP and no money), get to other flank and HELLO there is another gunboat there. Spotting difference is meaningless because you will spot it in 90% of cases when you are headed for each other and you will NEVER manage to turn BEFORE getting spotted. Result is death, low to no XP due to always running and shooting torps from huge distances. Its not playable and say hi to 150 000 repair cost after these nice battles. Cant cap, cant get close to anything, do no damage unless lucky with 20 km torp shot = HELL TO PLAY. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[DAD] Whatever08152 Players 228 posts 7,081 battles Report post #7 Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) Given the amount of games where my personal fun got absolutely ruined by shimakazes while playing Montana the last two days I can only say that my compassion is very limited. Although I understand your frustration when you get the feeling that you just cant perform better regardless what you try to do. So I guess you will have to resort to long range torpedo spamming like I have to resort to long range "sniping" ...no fun for anyone. Edited December 25, 2015 by Whatever08152 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vogel Alpha Tester 2,062 posts 4,171 battles Report post #8 Posted December 25, 2015 The main problem is that high-tier CA's get rekt by BBs, and CVs are mostly dead these days. Hence, you'll get into matches with a crapton of BBs and DDs, which is bad for everyone involved. Gunboat DDs can "only" attack other DDs, whilst BBs will have a hard time spotting for itself. Shimas are a problem in itself, due to the carpet torping. Can't say if they are balanced or not (in any direction) due to this. If CAs got an easier time in high-tier battles in terms of survivability, then the current situation would solve itself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BLOBS] Spellfire40 Beta Tester 5,330 posts 13,776 battles Report post #9 Posted December 25, 2015 Well if they are everywere someone of your team should be near too to suport you otherwise use your supierior camo to get the 1st shoot while turning. Hatsu plus have decent gun they are just slow firing. If you get in the 1st shoot and it get fire from other locations too they have other things to do than hunting you down. And while you are not the best Anti DD ship you can actually Hit capital ships for decent damage something thease Gunboats even with the 9km Torps have troble with Edit: Whatever: there is no Middle ground with IJN DDs if your spoted you go down faster than any other ship. They are redicules fragile. On the other hand if you dont get spoted you can have decent games with good results. But others than with any other class it require you to do anything righ while your enemy must make an error for 20 sek to 2 min. I can understand BB driver that find themself on the receiving end of mutiple Shimas to be frustrated but see the other side : One perfect atacksetup your fighterscout circles over it and 2 min atack resuse wasted. or someone just shoots you for 1000 damage your change cousrse atack wasted . invisible DD in the atackpath you see the Torps early atack wasted. Thats why if a atack actually conects its very devestating at high level. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fonfalks Players 539 posts 11,322 battles Report post #10 Posted December 25, 2015 Well if they are everywere someone of your team should be near too to suport you otherwise use your supierior camo to get the 1st shoot while turning. Hatsu plus have decent gun they are just slow firing. If you get in the 1st shoot and it get fire from other locations too they have other things to do than hunting you down. And while you are not the best Anti DD ship you can actually Hit capital ships for decent damage something thease Gunboats even with the 9km Torps have troble with One of us is drunk or haven't played DDs and i dont drink and have over 100 battles in Kagero Lets look at what you said in details 1)Team does not support, there is no such thing as team in randoms, i have died 95% of times when tried to rely on team 2)If i shoot at gunboat while turning i will become even more visible for a long time - i hope you understand how stealth and detection works if guns used + Kagero guns are joke 3)I am not sure with what and how i can hit capital ships while constantly running for my life ... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BLOBS] Spellfire40 Beta Tester 5,330 posts 13,776 battles Report post #11 Posted December 25, 2015 One of us is drunk or haven't played DDs and i dont drink and have over 100 battles in Kagero Lets look at what you said in details 1)Team does not support, there is no such thing as team in randoms, i have died 95% of times when tried to rely on team 2)If i shoot at gunboat while turning i will become even more visible for a long time - i hope you understand how stealth and detection works if guns used + Kagero guns are joke 3)I am not sure with what and how i can hit capital ships while constantly running for my life ... I played up to Kagero in CBT I played up Fubuki and Maham in the Released game. I also have the Blascawiza and SIms so i see the game from both sides. Well if your team dont suport you dont go solo to one side. Yes shooting keeps your visible longer but if you keep the smomescreen between you and the Gunboat it dont matters you stay invisible. If he shoot back he should be visible too. An visible DD means anybody in decent range will shoot him and a DD under fire from mutiple targets usally do the same thing you did: Pop smoke and open the distance Gunboat or not. And just because someone shoots you dont means you cant shoot 15 or 20 km Torps at Targets. Your atackwindow shoud be pretty good even on the larger maps Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BW-UK] ShockPirat Beta Tester 814 posts 27,543 battles Report post #12 Posted December 25, 2015 IJN DDs have guns too, you know? And they are damn good guns. HE damage per shell tier 7+ - 2100 IJN, 1800 USN, 1700 Blyska, 1600 Russians (ouch...that nerf went too far). IJN guns are limited only by their traverse (can be fixed with the captain skill) and rate of fire (again, basic firing training helps with this). On all other soft and hard stats they are superior to USN guns. Many times I've met an IJN DD, started shooting at him and watched in astonishment as he DIDN'T shoot back and failed to disengage... And many times I've destroyed "superior" gunboats with my IJN DDs. Hatsu and above have very good guns, so don't be afraid to use them when it's safe to do so or you're forced to do it! Yes, a skilled USN/RU/Blyskawica will still be a bit better, but you can disengage with smoke and force him to disengage. Don't sail straight, dodge enemy shells, if you're against USN try to increase the distance and kill him with your superior shell arc (he will have a hard time hitting you at 8+km if you manouver), if you're against RU disengage if you can, if you can't decrease distance and torp him (he can't turn as well as other DDs). And again - dodge the shells! I managed to outshoot an Furutaka with my Minekaze, and an Atlanta with my Hatsuharu. It can be done. Just be aware of enemy's rate of fire and shell arc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zathras_Grimm Players 1,438 posts Report post #13 Posted December 25, 2015 This is a team game and people have to look out for each other to have the best game possible. The fact that they do not, does not mean this isn't a team game. Anyway, the IJN DD line does need a buff to armour and guns although not to bring them level with others. The armour because it is always the lowest nation, possibly to bring level with other nations. The guns because they are always half the strength of anyone else. Maybe to 75% of US guns (if they are already then no change needed). Reasoning is because if you don't get spotted by enemy DDs, then it's spotter planes, fighter planes or CV planes. A bit extra guns means the enemy DD still needs to be wary when attacking; the armour should be enough for you to run to your team for support. And it should only be to RUN AWAY; IJN DDs should not expect to trade punches with any other DDs. If you are out on your own then you have asked for trouble, if you have support then use it to find cover and start your run again. Feel happy that you have the stealth to do it, most other DDs don't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[THESO] Kenjiro_ [THESO] Players 991 posts 12,433 battles Report post #14 Posted December 25, 2015 IJN DDs have guns too, you know? And they are damn good guns. Damn right! I have two sailors throwing rocks to enemy ships on my mutsuki. One at the bow and one at the aft Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LilJumpa Beta Tester 4,603 posts 7,488 battles Report post #15 Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) Damn right! I have two sailors throwing rocks to enemy ships on my mutsuki. One at the bow and one at the aft If you really sacrificed 2 turrets to get more AA, then maybe the captain is the problem, not the guns. Kagero and Fubuki have very good guns and the best thing: They have 2 double turrets at the back and are able to do good damage while "running" from US or RU gunboats if you maneuvered yourself into a situation where you have to use the guns. It's actually all about knowing game mechanics (e.g. increased concealment when firing main guns) and situational awareness. But if you happen to get into a gunfight you are not helpless. Edited December 25, 2015 by LilJumpa Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[THESO] Kenjiro_ [THESO] Players 991 posts 12,433 battles Report post #16 Posted December 25, 2015 If you really sacrificed 2 turrets to get more AA, then maybe the captain is the problem, not the guns. I actually had to sacrifice 2 turrets in order to have 2 turrets that can turn. Otherwise you end up with 4 turrets that cannot follow the target if you maneuver (which you do a lot in an IJN DD) and have painfully slow reload (for a DD) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LilJumpa Beta Tester 4,603 posts 7,488 battles Report post #17 Posted December 25, 2015 I actually had to sacrifice 2 turrets in order to have 2 turrets that can turn. Otherwise you end up with 4 turrets that cannot follow the target if you maneuver (which you do a lot in an IJN DD) and have painfully slow reload (for a DD) Then i guess it depends on the playstyle a lot. I preferred the "burst and run" when i played her, rather than getting into a longer gunfight where the turret traverse mattered Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[THESO] Kenjiro_ [THESO] Players 991 posts 12,433 battles Report post #18 Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) Then i guess it depends on the playstyle a lot. I preferred the "burst and run" when i played her, rather than getting into a longer gunfight where the turret traverse mattered You do not deliberately get in a gunfight with a Mutsuki. You just get caught into one sometimes. In most battles, I dont even fire my guns once. Capping, torping and spotting are all Mutsuki can do. You can only fire your guns to target with less then 1k health or to a BB with all turrets pointing other way and if also there is no one else around to shoot at you Otherwise you're dead meat... Edited December 25, 2015 by Kenjiro_ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mordante Players 77 posts Report post #19 Posted December 25, 2015 Jap ships are in this game for 1 reason. To provide easy XP for the enemy team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[GARTH] CherryWood Beta Tester 137 posts 17,210 battles Report post #20 Posted December 25, 2015 well, those high tier russian speadboats are so hard to hit and because of that takes forever to kill in heavy cruiser + they dont really do that much dmg to armored ships, so its kinda understandable that CA players tend to ignore those if there is any other target in range. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[DAD] Whatever08152 Players 228 posts 7,081 battles Report post #21 Posted December 25, 2015 Jap ships are in this game for 1 reason. To provide easy XP for the enemy team. Shimakaze, Yamato, Zao ...all bad ...yea ...no :p You couldnt be more wrong ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BLOBS] Spellfire40 Beta Tester 5,330 posts 13,776 battles Report post #22 Posted December 25, 2015 You do not deliberately get in a gunfight with a Mutsuki. You just get caught into one sometimes. In most battles, I dont even fire my guns once. Capping, torping and spotting are all Mutsuki can do. You can only fire your guns to target with less then 1k health or to a BB with all turrets pointing other way and if also there is no one else around to shoot at you Otherwise you're dead meat... The only reason you get the 2 guns on Mitsuki is if you want the AA Even with faster turn rate i personaly find that they dont as acurate as the normal guns (might be just because you lob less shells but thats how i remembered it because Mituki and Hasu werent keeper in my habor) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mordante Players 77 posts Report post #23 Posted December 25, 2015 Shimakaze, Yamato, Zao ...all bad ...yea ...no :p You couldnt be more wrong ... Tier 10, LOL most people play between tier 4 and 8. Where are the great ships at that range. Do not say Kongo since normal people do not play battleships. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_FTD_ ∞ Players 908 posts 10,097 battles Report post #24 Posted December 25, 2015 Tier 10, LOL most people play between tier 4 and 8. Where are the great ships at that range. Do not say Kongo since normal people do not play battleships. fuso?! myoko?! amagi?! fubuki?! all top ships at their tier... idk what your problem is... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mordante Players 77 posts Report post #25 Posted December 25, 2015 fuso?! myoko?! amagi?! fubuki?! all top ships at their tier... idk what your problem is... LOL you actually believe what you are saying? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
