This is what is wrong with the MM

[B4zza]

I don't like to gripe but this was a little silly, 4 x Shimakaze plus 2 other DD and all 3 platoons on the other team. Our team was strong in terms of Battleships but if you can't see it, you can't shoot it.

 

You couldn't keep guns on target as you were trying to find the water around the torps.

 

Surely it can be made to be a little more balanced than this?

 

[Benedictus_de_Suede]

Agree totally...

 

 

I were just in a game like this. We had a lot higher tiers on the BBs but on their side they had:
 

1 Gearing ,1 Shimikaze1 Kagero,1 Farragut

While we had:

1 Udaloi, 1 Benson, Tashkent.

 

Guess who won?

NOW listen pleeeease Wargaming....

1) Torpedo spamming matches, and in generall, like this is NOT fun!

2) Not beeing able to counter a Gering who just sits in a cloud of smoke spams HE on you while u can do crap is no fun either - just frustrating like hell. (He can se you but you can´t see him?? Wtf is the logic in that?????)

3) Unlimited number if torps is so "un-real" you might as well put warpdrives on the destroyers too. Btw where do they store all their 1 billon "big" topedoes?

 

For the record. I can live with the DDs stealthiness even if it too is totally out of proportion. However if they fire their guns they should light up as a christmas tree. Smokescreens was used as a defensive counter measure. Perhpaps you should allow even the bigger ships to deploy it like in real life...

[Kirasa]

3) Unlimited number if torps is so "un-real" you might as well put warpdrives on the destroyers too. Btw where do they store all their 1 billon "big" topedoes?

 

 

You don't want to open this can of worms...

[mrshambler]

Agree totally...

 

 

 

I were just in a game like this. We had a lot higher tiers on the BBs but on their side they had:

 

1 Gearing ,1 Shimikaze1 Kagero,1 Farragut

While we had:

1 Udaloi, 1 Benson, Tashkent.

 

 

Guess who won?

NOW listen pleeeease Wargaming....

1) Torpedo spamming matches, and in generall, like this is NOT fun!

2) Not beeing able to counter a Gering who just sits in a cloud of smoke spams HE on you while u can do crap is no fun either - just frustrating like hell. (He can se you but you can´t see him?? Wtf is the logic in that?????)

3) Unlimited number if torps is so "un-real" you might as well put warpdrives on the destroyers too. Btw where do they store all their 1 billon "big" topedoes?

 

 

For the record. I can live with the DDs stealthiness even if it too is totally out of proportion. However if they fire their guns they should light up as a christmas tree. Smokescreens was used as a defensive counter measure. Perhpaps you should allow even the bigger ships to deploy it like in real life...

 

I understand what you mean but I feel rather when you are the DD sitting in the smoke, shooting at a BB and you get 5 hits yet only deal 300 dmg and brake one of his aa guns. Then the smoke ends and you only have 2 left and everyone starts shooting at you like crazy, you better have stopped shooting 20 sec before it ends or turned direction in the smoke.

[Benedictus_de_Suede]

 

You don't want to open this can of worms...

 

Ohh Yes I do...

 

World of Tanks = Limited number of Shells....

 

CVs in WoWs = Limited nummber of Planes (their primary and ONLY weapon)

Torpedo spams = not fun...

Most games = Limited number of ammo

 

 

Limited amount off Torpedoes and Shells for that matter would improve gamplay in general. Why? because it would be more challenging! You would acutally need to think before you release your weapons.

The DD kills I enjoy, and for that matter respect, the most is the ones where you sneak up pretty close, take a risk and do tons of damage. That requires skill!

 

 

In a game a weak ago I was killed in my Iowa along with another team mate who also was in an Iowa by a single salvo of torps from a Shimakaze.. We where both more or less at full Health..A double strike around 140 000+ dmg. You know what- that´s totally OK!

 It was a really skilled attack where he ambushed us and we didn´t pay enough attention. I can respect that. What I DONT respect is DD kills where you sit 15km away cloaked up and just spams away torps and hope you hit something.  That type of mechanics kills the gameplay for all other ships. In the game yesterday that I was reffering to i did like 18000 dmg (which sucks) with my BB in the whole match. Why? All I could do was zig zagging around continous walls of incomming torps...is that fun????

 

[Kirasa]

 

Ohh Yes I do...

 

World of Tanks = Limited number of Shells....

 

CVs in WoWs = Limited nummber of Planes (their primary and ONLY weapon)

Torpedo spams = not fun...

Most games = Limited number of ammo

 

 

Limited amount off Torpedoes and Shells for that matter would improve gamplay in general. Why? because it would be more challenging! You would acutally need to think before you release your weapons.

The DD kills I enjoy, and for that matter respect, the most is the ones where you sneak up pretty close, take a risk and do tons of damage. That requires skill!

 

 

In a game a weak ago I was killed in my Iowa along with another team mate who also was in an Iowa by a single salvo of torps from a Shimakaze.. We where both more or less at full Health..A double strike around 140 000+ dmg. You know what- that´s totally OK!

 It was a really skilled attack where he ambushed us and we didn´t pay enough attention. I can respect that. What I DONT respect is DD kills where you sit 15km away cloaked up and just spams away torps and hope you hit something.  That type of mechanics kills the gameplay for all other ships. In the game yesterday that I was reffering to i did like 18000 dmg (which sucks) with my BB in the whole match. Why? All I could do was zig zagging around continous walls of incomming torps...is that fun????

 

 

Okay, the short list for you, to see if that's enough to make you stop:

 

 

You want realism for DDs as in limited torpedos? Sure, if we also get 

a) The real hitrate for BBs, which was around 2% 

b) The real Long Lance IJN torps (which were invisible with a range of 40km)

c) Real fighting distances: 200km between the two fleets, CVs are the main weapons, the rest only AA escort

d) Real acceleration of ships. "Yai, my BB is finally at full speed after 20 minutes! ... Wait a sec... "

 

 

The list can go on, but I think that should be a good enough start to show you that your idea is pure and simple BS.

 

 

You don't want skill for DDs, but to be able to sail around even more braindead in your BB.

[cherry2blost]

 

Okay, the short list for you, to see if that's enough to make you stop:

 

 

You want realism for DDs as in limited torpedos? Sure, if we also get 

a) The real hitrate for BBs, which was around 2%  Realistic Secondaries... DD would be dead before his torps were away

b) The real Long Lance IJN torps (which were invisible with a range of 40km) Correct view range where we would see DD smoke stack as soon as it crossed horizon

c) Real fighting distances: 200km between the two fleets, CVs are the main weapons, the rest only AA escort/ Straight and level at low height to run torps 

d) Real acceleration of ships. "Yai, my BB is finally at full speed after 20 minutes! ... Wait a sec... " 20 minutes is a bit of an exaggeration

 

 

The list can go on, but I think that should be a good enough start to show you that your idea is pure and simple BS.

We can go on and on like this... DD Ninja Apologists are off again....

 

 

You don't want skill for DDs, but to be able to sail around even more braindead in your BB.

You don't want skill for DDs, but be able to sail around even more, spamming torps, braindead in your DD

 

Corrected it for you 

 

In all honesty @ OP have you actually played DD's?

 

At max range those long range torps are so spread out, that it is actually quite easy to avoid them, unless you are camped back, sitting still, or just staring down sniper sight..... any half awake BB player can A) Avoid torps, B) kill most DD before they kill you.... bad players always blame game/tools/other players..... good players just deal with the odd issue like that to which you mention....

[anonym_gCiyicUsNYGl]

i don't think ive seen more than 2 battleships for each team in the past few weeks when playing t10 ships

 

theres always a minimum of 5 destroyers in each team, and it's going to be much worse after the patch is released

[cherry2blost]

i don't think ive seen more than 2 battleships for each team in the past few weeks when playing t10 ships

 

theres always a minimum of 5 destroyers in each team, and it's going to be much worse after the patch is released

 

So, really, all that's going to happen; assuming it's as bad as people think.... is that BB's will be given a little hoilday, WG will see in stats that something is broken and next patch they will buff cruisers even more to make up for it... WG + Logic...... = Oxymoron....

[chazwozza]

I smell 5.1 all over again welcome back to world of cruisers 

 

[T0rad]

You know i consider myself a decent BB player (had 68k avarege dmg on NC, not great but not that bad either, now im on Iowa and finding my way around). And actually i mind the gameplay now and its due to DDs. youd have to create something like MMR... 

 

DDs force a passive gameplay style, because when you are in row of your ships you are immune to other harm than from enemy BBs, but when youd like to take inicative, you cannot. The DD spam denies whole zones, you cant ever position yourself, you cant ever push. Because there is a DD you dont even see who has his torps ready for you. Now im rarely sunk by torps, very rarely.  grew cautios, expect it all the time, so i turn, slow down iregularly and it pays of. But i cannot go forward, tank up damage, and people are affraid so they dont go with you. affraid of that deadly torpedo fan. 

 

With MMr you would be in games with "better" players, then if you had skill youd also have good opponents, you could do something organized. DD scouts, close to BBS for support, yet far enough to spot torps and other DDs. But and never having back something like un MMR match. let better players play with better players. reward high rating maybe sligthly by small economy boosts. 

 

Or you could have limited ammo. i think this is not problem for BBs who owuld be unable to shoot all the ammo they had in 20 minute match. For rapid firing cruisers maybe more, but its veeeery unlikely. For DDs? yes... torps and rapid firing shells. you would want to shoot up other DDs dmged targets, you would not want to invis spam everything around. And with that let DDs keep shorter spot torps, long range torps, invis in smoke and everything. 

[Fonfalks]

I don't like to gripe but this was a little silly, 4 x Shimakaze plus 2 other DD and all 3 platoons on the other team. Our team was strong in terms of Battleships but if you can't see it, you can't shoot it.

 

You couldn't keep guns on target as you were trying to find the water around the torps.

 

Surely it can be made to be a little more balanced than this?

 

 

Agree totally...

 

 

 

I were just in a game like this. We had a lot higher tiers on the BBs but on their side they had:

 

1 Gearing ,1 Shimikaze1 Kagero,1 Farragut

While we had:

1 Udaloi, 1 Benson, Tashkent.

 

 

Guess who won?

NOW listen pleeeease Wargaming....

1) Torpedo spamming matches, and in generall, like this is NOT fun!

2) Not beeing able to counter a Gering who just sits in a cloud of smoke spams HE on you while u can do crap is no fun either - just frustrating like hell. (He can se you but you can´t see him?? Wtf is the logic in that?????)

3) Unlimited number if torps is so "un-real" you might as well put warpdrives on the destroyers too. Btw where do they store all their 1 billon "big" topedoes?

 

 

For the record. I can live with the DDs stealthiness even if it too is totally out of proportion. However if they fire their guns they should light up as a christmas tree. Smokescreens was used as a defensive counter measure. Perhpaps you should allow even the bigger ships to deploy it like in real life...

 

This is all wrong. MM has very little to do with what you write. Could MM be more "equal" in your situation? Sure. But in the end its not about MM (unless some completely crazy MM like in T10s can happen 1V3 or something like that) but about players skill, willingness to play as a team and tactical understanding. 

  So reds have huge amount of high tier DDs and you have 3 low tier, but many high tier BBs? This is what should be done and by doing it you will win 100% - your few low rank DDs do not go around randomly spamming torpedoes hoping to kill something, but they ESCORT BBs and by doing that they can 

1)Spot torpedoes thus giving a lot of time to react

2)Spot enemy DDs and then if BBs have any brains they will focus them

3)BBs will kill any cruisers on red team fast. 

= WIN.

Yes i agree it is much to ask from typical team in WOWs for a teamwork and any kind of thinking, HOWEVER i think it is still better to give people a chance rather then to just MM every game basically 1:1...

   I have had a few and i mean very few games where my team had really bad MM, all the platoons on red side, better ships on red side etc, etc, but man HOW FUN WAS IT when we realized that our team had brains and we won. IT WAS HARD BUT MAN IT WAS WORTH 30 STUPID GAMES. 

[Gunship14]

 

 

This is all wrong. MM has very little to do with what you write. Could MM be more "equal" in your situation? Sure. But in the end its not about MM (unless some completely crazy MM like in T10s can happen 1V3 or something like that) but about players skill, willingness to play as a team and tactical understanding. 

  So reds have huge amount of high tier DDs and you have 3 low tier, but many high tier BBs? This is what should be done and by doing it you will win 100% - your few low rank DDs do not go around randomly spamming torpedoes hoping to kill something, but they ESCORT BBs and by doing that they can 

1)Spot torpedoes thus giving a lot of time to react

2)Spot enemy DDs and then if BBs have any brains they will focus them

3)BBs will kill any cruisers on red team fast. 

= WIN.

Yes i agree it is much to ask from typical team in WOWs for a teamwork and any kind of thinking, HOWEVER i think it is still better to give people a chance rather then to just MM every game basically 1:1...

   I have had a few and i mean very few games where my team had really bad MM, all the platoons on red side, better ships on red side etc, etc, but man HOW FUN WAS IT when we realized that our team had brains and we won. IT WAS HARD BUT MAN IT WAS WORTH 30 STUPID GAMES. 

This all seems like excellent advice. Until you realise we aren't playing an RTS game.

[Benedictus_de_Suede]

 

Okay, the short list for you, to see if that's enough to make you stop:

 

 

You want realism for DDs as in limited torpedos? Sure, if we also get

a) The real hitrate for BBs, which was around 2%

b) The real Long Lance IJN torps (which were invisible with a range of 40km)

c) Real fighting distances: 200km between the two fleets, CVs are the main weapons, the rest only AA escort

d) Real acceleration of ships. "Yai, my BB is finally at full speed after 20 minutes! ... Wait a sec... "

 

 

The list can go on, but I think that should be a good enough start to show you that your idea is pure and simple BS.

 

 

You don't want skill for DDs, but to be able to sail around even more braindead in your BB.

 

 

 

 

Noop its not...

Off course you it´s hard to stay 100% true to reality...So what you are impling is that just because the game can´t be 100% true it´s ok to be totally "un-real"  when it comes to torps..Much care is allready taken in to consideration when it´s comes to other aspects of realism for example armor thickness and staying somewhat true to real Life..

You just thave to respect that I Think that unlimited number of ammo is crossing the line and it doesn´t improve gameplay...

 

I don´t buy your argumentation "just because the game can´t be 100% accurate" a) b) c) d) it´s therefore justified to give ships unlimited number of ammo....

Answer this then:

Why should Carriers have limited number of aircrafts?

 

Why do we have limited ammo in games like World of Tanks?

--------------------------------------------

a) Perhaps for a WWI BB (Battle of Jutland?)..Weather conitions? Engagement range?  Well the hit ratio was a lot higher in the 10 min? battle between Bismarck, Hood and Prince of Wales..know wasn´t it? . Perhaps guns should be nerfed to 10% why not...idk. I don´t Think my hit ratio would be +20% if I only sniped at max range...

b) Totally OK with me...Effective firing range 22km Type 93 (Think that this is what matters)..40km is also ok. The chance to hit at that distance is equal of the chance to hit a target a BBs max firing range with guns..very slim ...if the target is not stationary

c) Hmm did u make that up? Carrier vs. carrier engagement perhaps..but what about the engagement in Guadalcanal, The Danmark strait, the hunt for Scharnhorst, The hunt for Graf Spee...I can give you a list off 20 examples or more of battles like this...if you want. Well below ranges of 200km...All those battles where gun battles.

d) Well that wouldn´t be fun I agree..lol;) If you have a link for BB acceleration speed. I would be interested. I would guess pretty slow acc. to begin with and slow acc. at the end as the drag increase...

 

added...

e) real detection range...+100m DDs invisible at 4km lol...btw it´s ok with me

f) real effective range for secondary guns on BBs...5" (12cm) guns would penetrate side armour up 51mm up to 10km...

 

 

[Kirasa]

 

 

 

 

Noop its not...

Off course you it´s hard to stay 100% true to reality...So what you are impling is that just because the game can´t be 100% true it´s ok to be totally "un-real"  when it comes to torps..Much care is allready taken in to consideration when it´s comes to other aspects of realism for example armor thickness and staying somewhat true to real Life..

You just thave to respect that I Think that unlimited number of ammo is crossing the line and it doesn´t improve gameplay...

 

I don´t buy your argumentation "just because the game can´t be 100% accurate" a) b) c) d) it´s therefore justified to give ships unlimited number of ammo....

Answer this then:

Why should Carriers have limited number of aircrafts?

 

Why do we have limited ammo in games like World of Tanks?

--------------------------------------------

a) Perhaps for a WWI BB (Battle of Jutland?)..Weather conitions? Engagement range?  Well the hit ratio was a lot higher in the 10 min? battle between Bismarck, Hood and Prince of Wales..know wasn´t it? . Perhaps guns should be nerfed to 10% why not...idk. I don´t Think my hit ratio would be +20% if I only sniped at max range...

b) Totally OK with me...Effective firing range 22km Type 93 (Think that this is what matters)..40km is also ok. The chance to hit at that distance is equal of the chance to hit a target a BBs max firing range with guns..very slim ...if the target is not stationary

c) Hmm did u make that up? Carrier vs. carrier engagement perhaps..but what about the engagement in Guadalcanal, The Danmark strait, the hunt for Scharnhorst, The hunt for Graf Spee...I can give you a list off 20 examples or more of battles like this...if you want. Well below ranges of 200km...All those battles where gun battles.

d) Well that wouldn´t be fun I agree..lol;) If you have a link for BB acceleration speed. I would be interested. I would guess pretty slow acc. to begin with and slow acc. at the end as the drag increase...

 

added...

e) real detection range...+100m DDs invisible at 4km lol...btw it´s ok with me

f) real effective range for secondary guns on BBs...5" (12cm) guns would penetrate side armour up 51mm up to 10km...

 

 

 

As you said, it's not a simulation.

 

It is an arcade game and in this game the DD are the counter for BB. With a limited number of torps they couldn't do that job at all, because even with the best planing you won't get a higher hitrate with torps than 15%.

 

 

Now tell me how many torp hits that would make if a DD like Fubuki with 3x3 launchers only had one reload? Or even with two reloads? Can the DD sink a BB with that?

 

Since you proclaim nothing else here. More than 8 to 10 reloads aren't even possible for a high Tier DD due to the abysmal reload time at the moment. Unless you want to introduce one-shot torps, obviously.

[T0byJug]

i don't think ive seen more than 2 battleships for each team in the past few weeks when playing t10 ships

 

theres always a minimum of 5 destroyers in each team, and it's going to be much worse after the patch is released

 

Rubbish

 

Source http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20151219/eu_2month/average_ship.html

 for the Week ending 19/12/2015

Tier 10 ships were brought to battle 116964 times

 

BB 40253 or 34.4%

CA 28525 or 24%

CV 8271 or 7%

DD 39915 or 34%

 

34% of 12 is 4

 

If you add tier 9 ships as well DD make up under 33%

If we add tier 8, DD will drop to 22% of ships brought to battle. 

 

Also tier 10 ships make up 7% of all tier 8-10 ships brought to battle

 

 

[Kirasa]

 

Rubbish

 

Source http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20151219/eu_2month/average_ship.html

 for the Week ending 19/12/2015

Tier 10 ships were brought to battle 116964 times

 

BB 40253 or 34.4%

CA 28525 or 24%

CV 8271 or 7%

DD 39915 or 34%

 

34% of 12 is 4

 

If you add tier 9 ships as well DD make up under 33%

If we add tier 8, DD will drop to 22% of ships brought to battle. 

 

Also tier 10 ships make up 7% of all tier 8-10 ships brought to battle

 

 

 

Oi, facts don't have a place in this discussion.

[Gunship14]

 

Rubbish

 

Source http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20151219/eu_2month/average_ship.html

 for the Week ending 19/12/2015

Tier 10 ships were brought to battle 116964 times

 

BB 40253 or 34.4%

CA 28525 or 24%

CV 8271 or 7%

DD 39915 or 34%

 

34% of 12 is 4

 

If you add tier 9 ships as well DD make up under 33%

If we add tier 8, DD will drop to 22% of ships brought to battle. 

 

Also tier 10 ships make up 7% of all tier 8-10 ships brought to battle

 

 

Meaning both BBs and DDs are wayyy too many. Cruisers only make up 24% of top tier population. Outnumbered and outgunned... They should be buffed, while at the same time placing a limit on both BBs and DDs.

[Kirasa]

Meaning both BBs and DDs are wayyy too many. Cruisers only make up 24% of top tier population. Outnumbered and outgunned... They should be buffed, while at the same time placing a limit on both BBs and DDs.

 

CA don't need a Buff.

CV need one.

With more planes in the air you'll see more CA and less DD and BB.

[Gunship14]

 

CA don't need a Buff.

CV need one.

With more planes in the air you'll see more CA and less DD and BB.

Because every CA captain, when he sees more CVs will be like "oh imma get my CA out and go hunt dem planez for the crazy amount of exp and credits they give! not to mention how fun it is!". Yeah...

[T0byJug]

Meaning both BBs and DDs are wayyy too many. Cruisers only make up 24% of top tier population. Outnumbered and outgunned... They should be buffed, while at the same time placing a limit on both BBs and DDs.

 

Ok I Dont have a tier 10 Ship but if tier 10 make up 7% of ships that can see tier 10 games I am pretty sure Tier 10 only douse not happen that often.

 tier 9-10 ships CA make up 23.4% tier 8+ Ca make up 35.6% of ships due to the tier 8 prem Cruisers. This % will only increase with time as there are 2 more tier 8 Prem  CA's incoming

 

You could however be very right something may need to be done with high tier CA's as there douse seem to be a sharp drop of in Cruiser players the higher up the tiers you go. I dont think limiting the amount of BB/DD is the answer though as it would just push fleet make up towards  be same each match

 

 

[Kirasa]

Because every CA captain, when he sees more CVs will be like "oh imma get my CA out and go hunt dem planez for the crazy amount of exp and credits they give! not to mention how fun it is!". Yeah...

 

The number of BB and DD players will drop due to better destructive power of CVs.

What would they play instead? CV? Good joke. 

Not much choice there.

[T0byJug]

 

CA don't need a Buff.

CV need one.

With more planes in the air you'll see more CA and less DD and BB.

 

I dont think High tier CV need a buff! but the game-play of lower tier need something doing to them as People are giving up on Carriers at tiers 6-7 and never getting to those T8 and above ships

 

 

[Kirasa]

 

I dont think High tier CV need a buff! but the game-play of lower tier need something doing to them as People are giving up on Carriers at tiers 6-7 and never getting to those T8 and above ships

 

 

 

The only high Tier CV who can barely(!) do it's job is Midway.

The rest is not even worth playing atm.

[Gunship14]

 

The only high Tier CV who can barely(!) do it's job is Midway.

The rest is not even worth playing atm.

Then the people who play those "other" CVs (you included Essex lol...) are just really bad. I play with a very good CV player and he makes the Taiho perform at the level of a T10 BB.