Secondaries again

[Vanhal]

It's a public test screen, but as nothing was changed in the test in this part of the game, i would put this here as thing TO CHANGE.

Not having it on a main server i thought to try the supposedly most powerful secondary guns in game. What i got is this (without ATF but with secondary module)

Seriously, wtf? Is that has any point?

[Andreevson]

Is that not the historical hit chance?

 

What my opinion is is that secondaries need to have their range greatly expanded, with accuracy being lost at range, yes, but still shooting. BBs will need some reducing in other aspects but the secondaries now are right useless.

 

4km range on most secondaries is silly.

[kfa]

43.000 dmg with secondaries, 26 base defense ribbons.

 

Yamato, all skills, flags and modules for secondaries.

[Zathras_Grimm]

43.000 dmg with secondaries, 26 base defense ribbons.

 

Yamato, all skills, flags and modules for secondaries.

 

Ok, a marked difference from Vanhals stats, but I would assume that the game was probably a very different one too. At 'Tier V' I have found that, as a DD Captain, I do not hold the fear I believe I should when straying close to a BB. Yes, if spotted I would turn away and run, but I do not worry about the damage of secondaries unless close to death and I think a few lucky shots will do critical damage.

If BBs are to be slowed down and rudder affected then I think everyone needs a healthy fear of going toe to toe with one. Andreevson has a good idea in that 0-4km should be a punishing encounter with 60% minimum hits raining down on an enemy; 4-6km should be 30-50% rounds hitting. These guns should still be affected by detection rules, so all DDs have a chance to get into torp range but they will realise it will hurt if they don't take care. I have seen DDs directly challenging BBs, and unless it is truly a 'Hell Mary' scenario, this shouldn't be the case.

 

 

I do think it's a result of the creep of some classes into other classes (DD Gunships into CA zone, BBs speed/manoeuvrability into CA zone; few CAs into BB zone). If the BBs have been nerfed in the speed/manoeuvrability area (which I agree, as it separates the classes more) then a buff in the power of secondaries would be fair.

 

Edit: The figures I have commented on in regards to secondary damage should be inclusive of any secondary Captains bonuses (hence the % ranges).

[Azalgor]

 KFA - excluding fires, 1 hit of your secondaries did around 171 dmg, and hit ratio with all the perks like you sayd is 1/10, all of that in 10km radius. If we take Yamatos 2 155mm turrets, that are Mogamis stock main turrets, firing just 2 turret within 10km most can do around 2-4+k dmg with every salvo using HE (no fires), so how much dmg you could have done, if you hit like that with atleast 1/3 of your fired secondary shells? Secondary arnament at this point does about 1/20 of its ingame caliber counterparts, minus accuracy and range limitation.

-Is that not the historical hit chance?

 Is it? Very good exsample: Watch documentary on Sharnhost and Gneisenau, where they ancountered RN CV and 2 DD escorts, encounter took part on around 10 miles distance, where both Germans shot theyr 100mm secondaries along with main guns and destroyed all 3 ships. Try hitting a DD in game with a BB on a 20 km distance. If their secondary arnament can hit DDs that far away, what supposed to be happening on such close distances like in game 5-10km? So far, nothing worth mentioning. 

 Unless they adjust the dmg and accuracy to an ingame calibers guns, secondaries will be useless. If you think it will make BB OP, well, every ship with them will get a buff be it a CA or CV. But we already know that WG likes to talk about history, but in reality they know nothing about it and kill historical accuracy in favor of balance.

[Vanhal]

43.000 dmg with secondaries, 26 base defense ribbons.

 

Yamato, all skills, flags and modules for secondaries.

 

Still, almost 3/4th of this damage is from fire. You must have been terribly long in the range to do something like this, and even then, it's more like enemies fault for bad fire management.

 

What meant in the first post was not even the accuracy, because 27 hits for 159 shots is actually good for their current state (yeah, that's how the secondaries failed since 0.4.0), but the absolutely pitiful damage and it's meaning for the meta.

That means you can put quite a lot of credits, captain skills and most importantly time, for something that is almost useless. 27 hits during the 18 minutes battle which i constantly pushed since first to the last second, and their combined effect is less than ONE ordinary hit from the main gun. What is the point of having them at all in that case?

[ShockPirat]

I did 40k dmg by secondaries yesterday in one Yamato game.

 

All damage done by secondaries is a BONUS. Nothing more, nothing less. If you're relying on secondaries to kill a DD, you're doing it wrong.

Think. Would it be fair for DDs to not be able to approach BBs at all?

This is not a simulator. "Historical" is not important for the balance. BBs don't have it nearly as hard with DDs as CAs have with BBs ir DDs with CAs.

So blast away that DD with your main guns, and if your secondaries finish him off that's good luck for you.

[Kirasa]

 

Still, almost 3/4th of this damage is from fire. You must have been terribly long in the range to do something like this, and even then, it's more like enemies fault for bad fire management.

 

What meant in the first post was not even the accuracy, because 27 hits for 159 shots is actually good for their current state (yeah, that's how the secondaries failed since 0.4.0), but the absolutely pitiful damage and it's meaning for the meta.

That means you can put quite a lot of credits, captain skills and most importantly time, for something that is almost useless. 27 hits during the 18 minutes battle which i constantly pushed since first to the last second, and their combined effect is less than ONE ordinary hit from the main gun. What is the point of having them at all in that case?

 

Please remember that the same armor rules are valid for secondaries which are valid for your primaries. If your AP secondaries can't pen you won't do damage. If they overpen it's 10%, and 33% for a normal hit. And yes, you want your HE secondaries as firestarters, when you fire AP with your mainguns all the time anyway. It's just a nice bonus.

 

Also 60% hitrate for 4km or below would be way too much. It would make it almost impossible for DDs to do their job:

Sink you.

 

 

 

You can't just sail around happily shooting everything with your BB not carind about DDs because of your secondaries.

 

Still, the following two are normal Nagato matches, even with the "low" secondary damage they're still doing almost more damage than some CL players out there, whose job it is to sink DDs...

 

 

 

 

[Vanhal]

All damage done by secondaries is a BONUS. Nothing more, nothing less. If you're relying on secondaries to kill a DD, you're doing it wrong.

Think. Would it be fair for DDs to not be able to approach BBs at all?

 

Please remember that the same armor rules are valid for secondaries which are valid for your primaries. If your AP secondaries can't pen you won't do damage. If they overpen it's 10%, and 33% for a normal hit. And yes, you want your HE secondaries as firestarters, when you fire AP with your mainguns all the time anyway. It's just a nice bonus.

 

Also 60% hitrate for 4km or below would be way too much. It would make it almost impossible for DDs to do their job:

Sink you.

 

You can't just sail around happily shooting everything with your BB not carind about DDs because of your secondaries.

 

First, i never even mentioned DD here and i agree with you on that, autokill is bad. Still, those damage numbers are very bad, they could at least revert the changes to closed beta. 5% more accuracy would not made THAT big difference, but certain ships could use it very much, like the Nagato and Warspite. Or it could be used to actually empower the brawler BB's to be true brawlers. Another idea would be to rise the accuracy depending on size of target, +5% against DD, +10% against the cruisers, +15% against BB/CV. It would still make their accuracy around 30% max for biggest target. With armor and such, as Kirasa said. High risk, high reward for brawlers.

 

Second, if that is bonus, why there are entire possible builds for that? While main gun builds are not even fractionally comparable. Answer is probably that those were useful prior to 0.4.0. I mean, just look at the ATF - don't you have a slight impression that it was meant more for them and it mandatory use for CL's is kinda collateral? I don't see a single skill for CA, DD, CV or BB that have so much impact for the game as ATF have for CL and some DD.

 

So, now to the question.

Before, the secondaries were important part of BB balance, just read the old threads - Warspite have crappy slow turrets, but great secondaries. Nagato something like that too (until its 410 guns actually stopped to be crap at one point of tweaking). But since the 0.4.0, WG haven't said anything about the secondaries balance at all. So i wonder how it is weighted right now. Will we see some more "brawler" BB that can't brawl much, or it is worth as much at it is actually useful?

If it's the second option, i would not have anything more to add i guess.

[Kirasa]

We all know that AFT needs to be fixed to not include CLs. As it was in the CBT...

 

 

As for the damage in brawls: Sure, the more the better. But even 16k in a brawl is a lot of damage. As I said above, that's more than some CL players with the same amount of guns you have as secondaries do...

[Vanhal]

 As I said above, that's more than some CL players with the same amount of guns you have as secondaries do...

 

Assuredly, with small correction that those are kinda lowish damage for the on the tiers i spoke of (6+).

[Makoniel]

I think the only thing they should do is to make secondaries fire HE no matter what. Their caliber is too low to fire AP but still, any non AA japanese secondary fires AP. (155mm triple gun, and 14cm casemate gun) 

So when they actually hit, it might result in a bounce. And I remind it is like 80% of Nagato's secondary suit. 

(thinking of this, maybe giving her full HE might be a bit OP. But i'd like to test that! )

[OVanBruce]

A DD already has problems trying to not get heavily damaged when closing in a vulnerable battleship with a competent captain.

[Perrinu]

Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew

Oh I hit something?

[Francois424]

The perfect ship to identify/Illustrate the problem with secondaries is the Mikasa (it also illustrate problem with low-tier BB dispersion, but that is not the subject of this thread).

 

This ship's Strength *are* it's secondaries; the main gun is extremely inaccurate and cannot be relied on (but feels good when it connects).

I don't mind their accuracy as much as their range.  Keep current accuracy but give the Mikasa 6km base range with them.  I think it would balance the ship a whole lot more.  Oh it would still be too weak vs Tier 3 but that's okay.

I would test it out, and only adjust their accuracy IF need be.

 

As for other BB, I'd like to see greater range as well, while keeping current accuracy.  Secondaries would act as a good deterrent, without upsetting balance too much.

You can always purchase the module to improve their accuracy if you want.

As of now most ships don't have good enough secondary batteries to even bother improving it (Except WarSpite, Yamato, and about 2 others)...

 

My 2 cents, and my vote to have them improved; if not across the board, then on specific ships that could benefit from it.

[Adwaenyth]

It's a public test screen, but as nothing was changed in the test in this part of the game, i would put this here as thing TO CHANGE.

Not having it on a main server i thought to try the supposedly most powerful secondary guns in game. What i got is this (without ATF but with secondary module)

Seriously, wtf? Is that has any point?

 

You actually got pretty lucky since secondaries have a 10% chance to hit anything at all. You had 17% hits.

[Zathras_Grimm]

10% chance to hit; I didn't think it was that bad! I do think this is an area where BBs should be buffed, after all they are 'Battle'ships; let's give their Captains some encouragement to get stuck in. 

 

[Adwaenyth]

The secondaries had several higher accuracy values in Alpha and Beta tests... believe me that 10% is the only rate that was remotely fair for DDs/CAs. Otherwise BBs would be untouchable by anything else but BBs.

[Kenliero]

What I do not understand, is that why DD players think their optimal range is 2 meters. You are making a mistake, if you go that close to BB and you should get rekt. Secondaries should be very powerful, so that DD's are forced to stay in proper range. Buff DD from their invisrange, if you think they are not powerful enough. It makes zero sense that DD can sail circles around BB. Making secondaries extremely powerful would also encourage BB to close range. Maybe change mechanism so that BB can not even shoot main guns closer than 4km, and is forced to switch to powerful secondaries when dealing from secondary range... and wreck everything that makes a mistake of coming so close. It's just stupid justification that DD has no chance from close range... well... they shouldn't have even tiny chance from 3km... I don't understand why this is even a thing... also Cruisers SHOULD keep their distance. Who on earth thinks that cruiser should work against BB in secondaryrange? Buffing secondaries would push balance and ranges to right direction. Next remove 15-20km torpedos, improve torp reloads, repair CV and we are heading to right direction...

[Zathras_Grimm]

What I do not understand, is that why DD players think their optimal range is 2 meters. You are making a mistake, if you go that close to BB and you should get rekt. Secondaries should be very powerful, so that DD's are forced to stay in proper range. Buff DD from their invisrange, if you think they are not powerful enough. It makes zero sense that DD can sail circles around BB. Making secondaries extremely powerful would also encourage BB to close range. Maybe change mechanism so that BB can not even shoot main guns closer than 4km, and is forced to switch to powerful secondaries when dealing from secondary range... and wreck everything that makes a mistake of coming so close. It's just stupid justification that DD has no chance from close range... well... they shouldn't have even tiny chance from 3km... I don't understand why this is even a thing... also Cruisers SHOULD keep their distance. Who on earth thinks that cruiser should work against BB in secondaryrange? Buffing secondaries would push balance and ranges to right direction. Next remove 15-20km torpedos, improve torp reloads, repair CV and we are heading to right direction...

 

I agree. Having a 7km torp range actually gives me up to a 8.5km range depending on speed and direction of target. That is why I put in the secondary fire ranges I did (to account for non-IJN DDs). Can't believe I'm supporting a buff for those evil BBs 

[Sp4wN_2k7]

Secondaries are supposed to protect BBs from cuddling DDs. It's their only countermeasure to instant death by unavoidable torps. But right now they are more useful against cruisers, since they are bigger targets and don't get overpened all the time like DDs. And by more useful I mean cool looking and not dealing significant damage fast enough to prevent the worst from happening. Some of the BBs need their secondary range adjusted (Amagi) and they need to increase the accuracy.

[bloomoon11]

I don't understand why anybody would want autoaim/autofire weapons to play more of a part in any game - JUST SAY NO!

 

I'm playing mainly BBs at the moment, if a DD manages to get within a few kms of me then either I did badly or he did well, so far the only couple of times this has happened has been when I've been one of the last ships left and been hunted down.

[Sp4wN_2k7]

It's not about autoaim/autofire weapons to play more of a role. If a DD gets that close to you, your team did something wrong. As a BB you can't outrun a DD, so you have to rely on your teammates doing their job. If you can't rely on your team, the only hope you have left is your secondary. And FYI an IJN or US DD on T8 or higher does not need to get into the range of your secondary to kill you. I would love to see WG implementing a mechanic to control the secondary, but I know they won't. So I want at least some reliability in a part that defines my ship class, otherwise they can remove my secondary and in return give me some more armor. I don't want an I-win-. I want a part of my ship class to actually fuction the way it should.

[Kenliero]

Here is my take on the secondary batteries... Some serious brawling and Testing.... and then the final verdict

 

[Sp4wN_2k7]

I don't want to be disrespectful, but judging the worth of secondaries after only 2 matches, in which you chose to shoot at ships on low health that were inside your secondary range is not very smart. You also made the mistake of turning away your ship while most of the secondaries of the Nagato face towards the front of your ship. You should trust your secondaries and shoot at targets that are either the biggest threat, yield the most damage or need to be hit to decap. I have almost as many games in my Amagi as you have in all of your BBs and I can tell you that the secondaries of the Amagi are even more powerful than the Nagato ones. Those secondaries rip through cruisers like it's nothing if they get closer than 4km. If you want to test your secondaries, use the training room to put them to the test.

And on a side note, it's NOT about surviving the game, it's about winning the game. If I can divert most of the enemy fire towards my ship, my team can attack without worry and cap some points or kill some DDs. Worrying about dying in a BB is unnecessary, as long as your team wins the game. You are supposed to tank the damage your team would be unable to withstand, that's why you have the thickest armor and the most hp of all the ship classes.