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Battleship vs Battleship HE spam?

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So here I was having to fight a retreating battle vs an enemy Kongo while being in a Kongo myself. He shoots HE I shoot AP, at first I thought I have it in the bag but soon to my horror even though his hit rate is far worse than mine the damage he causes is far superior. I am on fire , fire out, on fire again while I score minimum damage hits....my HP go down his...miniscule by the 1000hp hits.  

Is this the current meta, spam HE all the way?  I hit him 40% more often and I loose, hard he has 25% HP left.

 

So AP sucks unless you citadel, vs a moving enemy at long range...HE the ammo of choice or do I miss something? Since it seems I either hit for crapHP or a truckload but nothing in between while HE causes fire so more average damage?   

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Beta Tester
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Its the ricochet mechanics in play that they twiked in 0.5.1. Basically your AP is useless on close to max distances or an angling target, sometimes the RNGesus goes crazy and you actualy do decent dmg, or not. The HE always does something, from disabling modules to actual dmg plus fire. So if you see a retreating target the one like you mentioned, and you cant pen him swich to HE.

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I dont get it - why it is bad? Actually the game now has a solid use for both types of shells, and you consider it bad? I personally like it that i have to actually adjust my shell use to the situation, instead of just always using AP. The same holds true in rankeds for me. Ever since i got to rank 3 and trying to get to rank 1(not much success so far), the opponents generally got competent enough that citadels became really rare. And since they seem to angle well , HE becomes more and more the weapon of choice. 

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Sad but true - HE is the first choice - and that kills the gameplay totally - to play CV is useless at the moment - to play a BB is useless(?) exept u spam with HE shells - so the only playable way are DD and CR and spam torpedos trough the whole map.

 

 

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Always shoot HE at angled targets unless you are in a Yamato :trollface:

 

My experience in US BBs with AP is this:

>15 kms: sometimes plunging fire on an unsuspecting target can give good hits. Angled targets take equal dmg from AP and HE, but HE has a chance to set on fire. A retreating and heavily angled BB is next to impossible to damage with AP so i shoot HE.

 

10-15 km: Plunging fire is not possible. AP will work if the opponent is not heavily angled and retreating. If he is -> I may shoot HE for the fire chance. Seems to be a toss up, as it depends on what he chooses to do. At this range you dont have to sacrifice goats to RNGesus for a 4k AP hit if he happens to turn just a little too much.

 

<10 km: always firing AP

 

Edited by GulvkluderGuld

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I agree, AP / HE needs a rebalance. 

Rebalance does not mean nerfing/buffing any ship or ship class, because all ships have both AP and HE. It just means having a better  gameplay.

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the HE/ AP mechanics are a little bit skewed atm in favor of HE, ironically cruiser AP seems to be more reliable at damaging ships with decent damage( talking 5k + salvos with the 200mm guns and even the 155mm guns) than the 356mm guns of the BS shooting other battle ships, yes cruiser AP has a lower chance of causing a citadel penetration against a BS( almost zero chance) but shooting the super structure with AP works great, BS AP on the other hands seems to be rather hit and miss since the last few patches where they apparently "fixed" the penetration mechanics where hitting a full broad side into the perfect angle of an enemy BS does over pen damage( talking 1k for 5 hits - basically one penetration) ok on the odd occasion where you do manage to penetrate and not hit the citadel you will do a hell of a lot of damage but its heavily RNG based, even firing against cruisers, worse case of this was in the Arkansas or the New York cant remember which, fired a full broad side into a Kuma got 7 hits and only did 2k damage, all the while he fires a HE salvo at me and does 4k damage + sets me on fire.

 

In short, in the current meta of the game HE for consistant damage + fire change, or AP if the RNjesus is looking down on you.

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Yes. as the BigDov wrote. But honestly, i quite like what i see regarding the HE/AP ballance, were it not for the RNG. when you hit nice broadside with ap, already rearming for HE for the next shot where there will be no broadside shown, but the RNG screws you and the perfect hit does nothing, thats bad. I like idea that angeled and armored ships would not mostly by penned, and that HE will cause more stable dmg with fire whatever the angle. But i think that overpen is bull-****, the shell entering and leaving the ship anywhere would stress the hull immensly, and also a chance of not hitting anything important or at least damaging is next to null. 

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I think the biggest problem is that they have modeled the ships in such a way that the game assumes every section which is not a citadel is hollow.  Pen/over-pen is decided on what decks and bulkheads are hit as the shell travels through the ship, with no thought to what might be in between.  

 

For example, a galley might be relatively unimportant from a tactical viewpoint, and certainly not as relevant as an engine room but it will contain heavy metal fittings which would certainly slow a shell enough to allow an internal detonation.  I believe a simple fix (which does not require complex per-section modeling) would be to add an average friction amount, based on the distance traveled through a ship, in addition to the existing calculation for armour and internal penetrations.

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Im sorry, but do the AP shells acctually explode? i always thougth that they would work like tank AP shells. no chemical charge inside, just the pennig mass of the shot doing the damage. 

 

Again i am no naval expert

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Im sorry, but do the AP shells acctually explode? i always thougth that they would work like tank AP shells. no chemical charge inside, just the pennig mass of the shot doing the damage. 

 

Again i am no naval expert

 

Yes, AP naval shells do have an explosive charge in them.

This is the British 381mm shell

 

BL15inchAPMkXXIIBNTShell1943Diagram.jpg

 

Anti tank AP shells are different, some of them had no explosive charge, others did have a small one, but not as much as naval shells. Probably there are WoT players here... the premium AP ammo of SU-100Y is a naval shell (it has more damage than normal AP but less penetration).

 

Edited by M4R4Z
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Im sorry, but do the AP shells acctually explode? i always thougth that they would work like tank AP shells. no chemical charge inside, just the pennig mass of the shot doing the damage. 

 

Again i am no naval expert

 

Both AP and HE shells explode.

The main difference, basically, is that an AP shell is designed to explode after having perforated an armored layer (either the belt or the deck); an HE shell instead is designed to explode whenever it meets an obstacle. The former therefore has a much strengthened case and has a smaller bursting charge, while the latter is not as though but has a bigger bursting charge (for the example above, WWII British 15-inch shells had a bursting charge of 22 kg of Shellite for the AP and of 59 kg TNT for the HE).

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Tho, fuze has to penetrate certain thickness of armor to be activated. Every match You can see some BB trying to shoot DDs with AP, which over-penetrate and so dealing just 0.1 of shells max damage.

 

Angled BB vs Angled BB is bit funny situation. We had training with clan BBs vs BBs, all was angling armor and until low range we did not much damage to each other.  Angled Battleships is a killer, and it should be - all of them are so heavy just because they are best armored moving things in the world. At this kinda situation HE and medium range seems best tactic. 

But that HE is better than AP, oh common, just yesterday sunk Full HP Cleveland with 1 salvo, and Omaha cruisers is like christmas present - its just funny as hell. AP is must for BB, tho targeting angled BB should be a last option (I usually just angle my armor towards that BB and look for other targets, while friendly cruisers spam HE at her) and use BBs guns potential on open broadside ships and cruisers.

 

Cruisers AP at BBs? lol, have great time listening sounds of bouncing cruisers shell from my angled armor - especially Atlanta's and Clevelands, its just too funny. They might have "more reliable AP damage", but just because of them high DPM/fire rate. As soon as You angle armor, You start hearing music for BB captain ears - bounces.

 

Well, I would like to see nerfing HE and onboard fires, since its biggest pain for BB captain, at least for BBs, but this might make impossible fights between angled BBs - You might repair faster than You get damage. Imagine 2 Battleships holding medium range between each other, angling armor and shoot only AP - probably 20min would be not enough for this kind of fight.

But what I would like to see tho, flooding in over penetration situations! Hit, You make 0.1 damage, is it bad aim? Is it over-penetration? Is it partial -penetration? And flooding would make sense, High caliber guns VS light armored target just 1k damage? lol

 

So far I like current situation AP or HE, and You need to know distance, angle, target to use full ammo potential, and I like to see diversity of tactics.

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I think the biggest problem is that they have modeled the ships in such a way that the game assumes every section which is not a citadel is hollow.  Pen/over-pen is decided on what decks and bulkheads are hit as the shell travels through the ship, with no thought to what might be in between.  

 

For example, a galley might be relatively unimportant from a tactical viewpoint, and certainly not as relevant as an engine room but it will contain heavy metal fittings which would certainly slow a shell enough to allow an internal detonation.  I believe a simple fix (which does not require complex per-section modeling) would be to add an average friction amount, based on the distance traveled through a ship, in addition to the existing calculation for armour and internal penetrations.

 

I thik the above would be the best compromise, I can see the point of the bow and stern ends of the ship in an all or nothing armor scheme like what was favored by the RN and USN where parts of the ship of least strategic importance were lightly armored and in so would have thin armor and in game the over pen of x0.10 of the shall damage would make sense, but shells hitting the more central area of the ship near the citadel, conning tower, engine/ boiler rooms, fire controls systems ect ect may not fully penetrate into the depths required to do a full citadel penetration but they would still penetrate enough to damage some vital structural components and what not so a x0.25 - x0.75 damage modifier could work here depending on how vital the 2nd compartments were?

 

Im sorry, but do the AP shells acctually explode? i always thougth that they would work like tank AP shells. no chemical charge inside, just the pennig mass of the shot doing the damage. 

 

Again i am no naval expert

 

yeah they had a ballistic cap to penetrate the deck/ hull Armour along with a contract times fuse which would detonate shortly after penetrating the armor the HE charge of the shell hopefully deep within the confines of the ship, when you think about it just firing what we would define as AP from tanks they would be heavily reliant on spalling damage and no doubt their may be navel shells which were just solid steel projectiles, but when you consider the size of a ship even a small escort cruiser spalling damage won;t casue much damage so they then fire AP shells with a small HE charge to explode after penetrating the armor to maximize the damage effect, the bigger the shells the larger the HE filler that can be installed also the better penetration characteristics of the shell in question.
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upvotes for all of you for this very thorough explanation :) by the way, to be honest, i do fire APs at DDs sometimes. due to their smaller HP pool it hurts them. 2 salvos of AP do more in every way than one salvo of HE (at least it seems like it). 

 

EDIT: and by the way, for the shell caused flooding you would need different mgnitudes of breaches. and thats "too complex", so i wouldnt count on it. 

Edited by T0rad
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upvotes for all of you for this very thorough explanation :) by the way, to be honest, i do fire APs at DDs sometimes. due to their smaller HP pool it hurts them. 2 salvos of AP do more in every way than one salvo of HE (at least it seems like it). 

 

I do the exact same, sometimes its just as effective firing a close range volley of BB calibre shells than double tapping "1" to load HE wasting 30 seconds all the while he's peppering you with small calibre HE and potentially lining up for a close range torpedo run, getting at least 4-6 good solid AP hits is still at least 5-6k damage with the overpen mechanic which is sometimes enough to get them to think twice as they will be in secondary gun range by then which is a gamble as they fire like storm troopers but they do sometimes hit something.

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HE is superior to AP.

 

It does reliable consistent damage and sets a fire every time, mostly 2 at a time.

Going to take a long break, Nagato grind for nothing.

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HE is superior to AP.

 

It does reliable consistent damage and sets a fire every time, mostly 2 at a time.

Going to take a long break, Nagato grind for nothing.

 

no its not and stop crying. Just yesterday i beat Nagato... he fired HE, i fired AP.... surprise surprise 33k one salvo, 20k next. sure, he hurt me, but i was a tier higher ship still. in that very same battle i onesalvoed with AP one pensa, who dodged torps and broadsided to me, and another nagato, that used AP bud positioned himself poorly. I didnt kill that last nagato, as my HP ran out, but i left him with 8k. So AP is good if you know when to use it. I also dont think that if i fired everything i did with HE i would have had similar results. 

 

Edit: i drove Fuso.

Edited by T0rad

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It's amazing though if u start firing HE at other BBs they tend to show you more of their broadside. Thats when you switch to AP and punish them for it. ;-)

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Supertester, Players, Sailing Hamster
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I just got beaten in a one-on-one fight in my Myogi  by a HE spamming Wyoming. I hit that f***ing bastard 12 times and I left him on less than 10k HP, while he hit me 6 times and set 5 fires in total. The first 2 of which I put out, and then he set me a triple fire.

 

In short: he burned me down while I couldn'T sink him. I'm really [edited]tired of noobs getting away with noobness while I putr in hours upon hours to learn how and where to shoot and I'm rewarded with a big fat [edited]you.

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I do the exact same, sometimes its just as effective firing a close range volley of BB calibre shells than double tapping "1" to load HE wasting 30 seconds all the while he's peppering you with small calibre HE and potentially lining up for a close range torpedo run, getting at least 4-6 good solid AP hits is still at least 5-6k damage with the overpen mechanic which is sometimes enough to get them to think twice as they will be in secondary gun range by then which is a gamble as they fire like storm troopers but they do sometimes hit something.

 

Pretty much the only way I switch shell types is by clearing the barrels out the business end. :red_button: The ammo switch skill is frankly kinda useless.

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So far I like current situation AP or HE, and You need to know distance, angle, target to use full ammo potential, and I like to see diversity of tactics.

 

yes. every gun has different shell arc, every ship has imunity zone to certain guns,....

 

I just got beaten in a one-on-one fight in my Myogi  by a HE spamming Wyoming. I hit that f***ing bastard 12 times and I left him on less than 10k HP, while he hit me 6 times and set 5 fires in total. The first 2 of which I put out, and then he set me a triple fire.

 

In short: he burned me down while I couldn'T sink him. I'm really [edited]tired of noobs getting away with noobness while I putr in hours upon hours to learn how and where to shoot and I'm rewarded with a big fat [edited]you.

 

got some of your own medicine lol

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Supertester, Players, Sailing Hamster
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yes. every gun has different shell arc, every ship has imunity zone to certain guns,....

 

 

got some of your own medicine lol

 

Yes, thank you, that is very constructive. 

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