German Battleships?

[Getzamatic]

Well, I'm betting that's tier 3 and 4 wrapped up...  ;-)

 

I still think the Kaisers are a bit good for tier 4.  They were as fast and as well armoured as Warspite...

[1MajorKoenig]

Agree, and excellent choices:-)

 

Now I am of course curious how WG decides to fill T5 and 6! Personally I would LOVE to See The iron dog on T5 - but I sense that a lot of people won't agree due to making a step backwards in armor and number of guns compared to Kaiser. More speed though:-)

[Getzamatic]

I want to see the Konigs at tier 5, because they are my personal favourite HSF battleships and I'm hoping they'll save the Derflingers for a separate Battlecruiser line.

 

My fear is that the Konigs are too similar to the Kaisers.  They have the same speed, same armour and same secondaries.  They effectively have the same armament too and the only real difference is the improved layout...

[1MajorKoenig]

I also like the König. But Derfflinger would bring a totally different experience to the table. She could be moved to the BC line once it get omplemented but I fear that would not be anytime soon.

[Getzamatic]

I still think we might get Mackensen at tier five - assuming the people who datamined the stats for her guns are right...

[Comrad_StaIin]

I guess the Bayerns are Tier 6

[Getzamatic]

I guess the Bayerns are Tier 6

 

That would make sense.

 

I will be very interested to see what happens with the respective speeds for the German battleships.

 

There are currently a lot of ships - mostly Destroyers and in particular Russian Destroyers - in the game that are way faster than they were in reality.  This is because some of the offending ships were built in Italy and Italian shipyards were in the habit of running trials without the armament or even the armour installed in order to obtain artificially high speeds.  They did this because their contracts usually rewarded them financially for every knot over the sepcified speed they achieved.  WG has taken their trial speeds as gospel, but you can bet your behind that none of those ships could actually exceed 40 knots at service loading, much less in any kind of sea state.

 

By contrast, the Germans specified a contract speed (usually 21 knots for battleships) at a given power rating.  They also insisted the ships should be able to significantly overload their power plants on demand.  So long as the ships could make the design speed at the appropriate power rating then the ship would be accepted, however on trails they also established whether they could deliver the required overload power, which is why German ships routinely smashed their design speeds on trials.  The Kaisers were specified as 21 knot battleships, but all exceeded 23 knots on trials.  The German battlecruisers were all specifed as 26 knot ships and most achieved 28+ knots on trials.  Will WG give these ships their design speeds or their trial speeds?

 

Further, the ships of the Konig, Defflinger and Bayern classes did not run trials under the same conditions as their predecessors because the war made the usual waters unsafe.  This meant the ships delivered lower trials speeds, yet in service they prooved to be faster than their predecessors.  The Koings outran the Kaisers when chasing the 5th BS at Jutland, and closed the distance to a squadron of ships all acknowledged to be capable of 23.5 knots.  The Derfflingers were faster in service than Seydlitz, which did 28.5 knots on trials and Bayern was considered fast enough to operate alongside the Battlecruisers of 1st AG whilst Seydlitz and Derfflinger were undergoing repairs after Jutland.

 

Then there's the complicating factor of coal.  During the war, the Germans did not have access to high quality coal, which cost all their ships a knot or two in speed.

 

So how fast are the German battleships going to be?  To give you an idea of the discrepancy;

 

Nassau: Design speed - 19 knots, Trial speed - 20 knots, Best Service Speed - approx 20 knots (Jutland)

Helogland: Design speed - 20 knots, Trial speed - 21 knots, Best Service Speed - approx 20 knots (Jutland)

Kaiser: Design speed - 21 knots, Trial speed - 23.5 knots, Best Service Speed - approx 23 knots (Jutland)

Konig: Design speed - 21 knots, Trial speed - 21 knots, Best Service Speed - approx 23 knots (Jutland)

Bayern: Design speed - 21 knots, Trial speed - 21.5 knots, Best Service Speed - approx 23 knots (Baltic operations)

 

Von der Tann:  Design speed - 25 knots, Trial speed - 28 knots, Best Service Speed - approx 28 knots (pre war)

Molkte: Design speed - 26 knots, Trial speed - 28 knots, Best Service Speed - approx 27 knots (Dogger Bank)

Seydlitz: Design speed - 26 knots, Trial speed - 28.5 knots, Best Service Speed - approx 27 knots (Dogger Bank) 

Derfllinger: Design speed - 26 knots, Trial speed - 26.5 knots, Best Service Speed - approx 27 knots (Dogger Bank)

[byronicasian]

 

That would make sense.

 

I will be very interested to see what happens with the respective speeds for the German battleships.

 

There are currently a lot of ships - in particular Russian Destroyers - in the game that are way faster than they were in reality.  This is because many of the offending ships were built in Italy and Italian shipyards were in the habit of running trials without the armament or even the armour installed in order to obtain artificially high speeds.  They did this because their contracts usually rewarded them financially for every knot over the sepcified speed they achieved.  WG has taken their trial speeds as gospel, but you can bet your behind that none of those ships could actually exceed 40 knots at service loading, much less in any kind of sea state.

 

By contrast, the Germans specified a contract speed (usually 21 knots for battleships) at a given power rating.  They also insisted the ships should be able to significantly overload their power plants on demand.  So long as the ships could make the design speed at the appropriate power rating then the ship would be accepted, however on trails they also established whether they could deliver the required overload power, which is why German ships reoutinely smashed thier design speeds on trials.  The Kaisers were specified as 21 knot battleships, but all exceeded 23 knots on trials.  The German battlecruisers were all specifed as 26 knot ships and all achieved 28+ knots on trials.  Will WG give these ships their specifed speeds or their trial speeds?

 

 

 

I think we can infer from what will happen by precedent albeit WG/Lesta has been rather inconsistent. 

 

In game we have two examples of ships not being given any sort of margin for "safe overload".

 

That is the Iowa class (seen in the debate here), given its "operating speeds" of 30.7 kts (at wartime load) despite having, a trial speed of 31.9 (at trial displacement of 56,000 tons), and a safe overload margin of 20% to potentially give a 32-33 kt speed at full displacement. 

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/30515-iowas-in-game-speed-is-unfortunately-historical/

 

 

The same principle has been applied to the Shimakaze in game. Where she is given 39.4 knots (speed at 2/3rds load, at full 75000 shp) vs her speed on some of her trials (where she was only at 1/2 load, and overloaded her plants to 79000 shp). Tashkent making 43.5 knots on trial (a small nitpick, the VMF actually compensated for the lack of armament with additional stores since they also didn't want the overpay the OTO), limited to 42 or 42.5 in game as that was what she supposedly achieved on her fast runs in and out of Sevastopol (which I guess sounds plausible, as she was operating on the Black Sea, so no rough sea states, and she was only about 700 tons heavier from her trials coupled with a massive 130,000 shp power-plant). I would presume the Italians DDs would also be especially fast as they were probably not designed with range, endurance, and rough sea states in mind also.

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/31187-kantai-collection-discussion-thread-kai/page__st__10200__pid__1274525#entry1274525

 

Another thing we can probably expect is post-refit speeds since WG doesn't change speed w. the hull. You can see this with the Fubuki class (where she was given 35kts right off the bat despite making 38kts prior to ballast and refits being added after the 4th-Fleet incident). 

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/57697-fubuki-is-slower-than-usual/page__pid__1410249#entry1410249

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/57697-fubuki-is-slower-than-usual/page__st__20__pid__1412110#entry1412110

 

Same with Nagato (her propulsion upgrade brings her to post-refit max speed of 25 kts despite prior to the refit she can making 26ish). The North Carolina is an odd one, since she is given her most optimistic speeds despite having later hulls slowing her down IRL.

 

This will probably be even more of an issue when you add the French and Italian DDs. They ran their trials very light, as common practice in the interwar years.

 

The Fantastiques were some 600 tons lighter than wartime displacement (slower if you count the refits some of them had in America)

 

 

Sources can be found in the respective forum posts linked but for convience sake I'll list it below.

 

The helpful chart above is sourced from French Destroyers: Torpilleurs d'Escadre & Contre-Torpilleurs 1922-1956 by John Jordan & Jean Moulin.

Info on the Taskhent sourced from Leader Tashkent by N.N. Afonin 

Iowa speeds from Norman Friedman's US Battleships:

Fubuki speeds from "Kaigun"  and "Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy"

 

As seen with all paper ships in game so far, they are all given "design" speed. There was also a case where the Izyaslav class DD where it was initially given its operating speed in Baltic Sea states (30.5 knots) but buffed to original trial speeds of 33 or so IIRC. 

 

tl;dr - Best guess is we're not gonna see safe overload (i.e. speeds attained from max powerplant SHP + x % is out as seen with Shimakaze and Iowa) on the German BBs (so the faster trial speeds are out), but the best service speeds are a possibility (North Carolina). 

 

tl;dr 2 -  WG is hella inconsistent. Made even worse by the many different ways each country ran their trials at different displacements and SHP. And then made even worse, as they also use speed to buff underperformers like the Izyaslav.

 

 

[Getzamatic]

I am hoping (although not expecting) that we'll get their design speed as standard and then something resembling their service speeds as an upgrade.

[byronicasian]

I am hoping (although not expecting) that we'll get their design speed as standard and then something resembling their service speeds as an upgrade.

 

Yea, I wouldn't expect that either. Most of the "stock speeds" are made up. 

 

Kongo stock makes 25kts (despite in WW1 config capable of 27.5).

 

Nagato and Fuso stock is like 21/22 knots despite never having those max speeds IRL. 

 

All of the USN Standard BB have 18kt stock speeds when they all made 21kts off the slips. ( so based off of that, you'd probably have a fictional stock speed also). 

[1MajorKoenig]

 

Yea, I wouldn't expect that either. Most of the "stock speeds" are made up. 

 

Kongo stock makes 25kts (despite in WW1 config capable of 27.5).

 

Nagato and Fuso stock is like 21/22 knots despite never having those max speeds IRL. 

 

All of the USN Standard BB have 18kt stock speeds when they all made 21kts off the slips. ( so based off of that, you'd probably have a fictional stock speed also). 

 

You are making a point here. I took my old Kawachi out yesterday and the speed difference of only 2 or 3 knots make a huge difference to eg. Fuso's. 

 

Hope that Kaiser and König will be more on the 23 knot side which works for a BB. Nassau will be probably not much more dynamic than Kawachi though...

[Historynerd]

I would presume the Italians DDs would also be especially fast as they were probably not designed with range, endurance, and rough sea states in mind also.

 

As far as range and endurance, it's true that for Italian DDs were not built especially for those (and then, why should they?); the rough seas, well, it depends (besides, it's not like it matters in the game, as doesn't matter the maximum range). Several of the early destroyers (such as the Folgore and Dardo-classes) were smallish and therefore turned out to be quite unstable; the subsequent classes (basically incrementally improvements of the formula inaugurated with the Maestrale-class) performed better in this respect. True, they were built for the Mediterranean, and in the Atlantic they wouldn't have been at ease, but we shouldn't exaggerate that: the sinking of two destroyers in a storm after the Second Battle of the Sirte was more because of their worn out state than their abilities.

The large destroyers of the Navigatori-class (which sit somewhat outside of this trend, and might show up in a separate "large DD" line) were built to be very fast, but turned out to be rather poor seaboats; most were then modified with wider hulls and a higher bow, which worked, but as a result their top speed decreased to 28 knots.

 

Tl;dr the Italian destroyers from Tier 5-6 will all be going at more or less 38 knots tops. However, given the fact that they're basically gradual improvements of a same design, they might turn out to be unpalatable, since only the last two Tiers would give some radically different designs.

[506_Mephisto]

Kaiser sounds indeed interesting, because of her rather unique echolon layout. In gameplay as a Tier 4, having 6 guns able to fire forward gives her a clear advantage about the Wyoming's 4 or the Myogi's 2 guns. In addition you still got 5 turrets for a broadside, and four backwards.  Sounds like she is quit capable of dishing out a lot of damage, despite having a turret less than Wyoming. In addition she is ridiculously well armored compared to the Wyoming and especially the Myogi. Regardless of the topspeed being 21 knots or 23,5 knots, the Kaiser, sounds like a very dangerous, nasty ship.

 

The Tier 10 is called Großdeutschland? I hope they will change that. Considering the renaming of Deutschland to Lützow and the suggestion, tu use names, not being connected to the Third Reich, making that name one of the least probable choices for the H-classes.

[Comrad_StaIin]

nothing to see here

[1MajorKoenig]

Kaiser sounds indeed interesting, because of her rather unique echolon layout. In gameplay as a Tier 4, having 6 guns able to fire forward gives her a clear advantage about the Wyoming's 4 or the Myogi's 2 guns. In addition you still got 5 turrets for a broadside, and four backwards.  Sounds like she is quit capable of dishing out a lot of damage, despite having a turret less than Wyoming. In addition she is ridiculously well armored compared to the Wyoming and especially the Myogi. Regardless of the topspeed being 21 knots or 23,5 knots, the Kaiser, sounds like a very dangerous, nasty ship.

 

The Tier 10 is called Großdeutschland? I hope they will change that. Considering the renaming of Deutschland to Lützow and the suggestion, tu use names, not being connected to the Third Reich, making that name one of the least probably choices for the H-classes.

 

 

Don't mind The Name, remember it is only a Game. But you are right a pretty unlikely name choice.

 

However, I would pick "Götz von Berlichingen" for H39.

 

But I am more into the dreadnought era anyway. Hope for a specia for the 100 year Jutland anniversary!

[Getzamatic]

Likew

 

But I am more into the dreadnought era anyway. Hope for a specia for the 100 year Jutland anniversary!

 

Likewise, I can see myself eagerly grinding my way up to tier 6 and then losing interest once the ships of the KM enter the tree...

[Foxhound128]

Unlikely, that Kaiser will have the option of a 5-turret broadside.

[Comrad_StaIin]

Unlikely, that Kaiser will have the option of a 5-turret broadside.

 

why do you think it wont be possible ?

 

Picture added

[carvillan]

 

 

Don't mind The Name, remember it is only a Game. But you are right a pretty unlikely name choice.

 

However, I would pick "Götz von Berlichingen" for H39.

 

But I am more into the dreadnought era anyway. Hope for a specia for the 100 year Jutland anniversary!

 

They won't call it that due the name's association to the 17th SS Panzer Grenadier Division.

[Foxhound128]

 

why do you think it wont be possible ?

 

Picture added

 

It is possible, as pictured above, but:

-The turret needs to make a nearly 270 degree turn, which, knowing turret rotation speeds on BB's will take very long to do so

-Even if you succeed in turning the turret around, you have a very narrow field of fire for it

-Combine it with the fact, that the narrow firing arc forces you to expose a flat broadside to the enemy, 350mm belt or not, it's still dangerous

It can be implemented, but it would be very frustrating to use.

 

They won't call it that due the name's association to the 17th SS Panzer Grenadier Division.

 

They had no problems with naming the Tier 10 "Großdeutschland" - same name as one of the SS Panzerdivisions. Großdeutschland is a stupid name for another reason - Hitler would never allow such ship to carry this name, he feared the bad Karma resulting froom losing ships with such name (see why Deutschland pocket BB was re-named into "Lutzow"

 

Secondly, there are plenty of other options, they could name it after one of Germany's provinces, or after famous figures in German history, like ships of the Imperial Navy

[1MajorKoenig]

 

They won't call it that due the name's association to the 17th SS Panzer Grenadier Division.

 

Sorry but that is Nonsenses.

 

GvB is a great piece of Literature and the Knight is a symbol for freedom and against Oppression.

 

If any random WSS formation used the name it does not mean it is known for that fact.

 

Either way - I very much look forward to The HSF! The KM stuff doesn't bother me too much

[1MajorKoenig]

 

They won't call it that due the name's association to the 17th SS Panzer Grenadier Division.

 

Sorry but that is Nonsenses.

 

GvB is a great piece of Literature and the Knight is a symbol for freedom and against Oppression.

 

If any random WSS formation used the name it does not mean it is known for that fact.

 

Either way - I very much look forward to The HSF! The KM stuff doesn't bother me too much

[1MajorKoenig]

 

They won't call it that due the name's association to the 17th SS Panzer Grenadier Division.

 

Sorry but that is Nonsenses.

 

GvB is a great piece of Literature and the Knight is a symbol for freedom and against Oppression.

 

If any random WSS formation used the name it does not mean it is known for that fact.

 

Either way - I very much look forward to The HSF! The KM stuff doesn't bother me too much

[Deamon93]

Well the name doesn't make much sense due to the fact Hitler renamed Deutschland to the less problematic Lutzow(after the original was given to the Soviets). It would have made more sense naming her after important figures from the past, a la Bismarck and Tirpitz.

[506_Mephisto]

Yeah, the Nazis copied basically the imperial name system for armored/ battlecruisers for their larger warships, naming them after famous generals  or admirals, with Bismarck being the exception, since he wasn't really a general. But the imperial fleet had still named two ships after him: The first german armored cruiser Fürst Bismarck, and later a Mackensen class battlecruiser having the same name.