karsun

0.5.1.0 AP Damage Model Clarification

174 posts in this topic

It should be relatively easy to detect problems

its not a matter of observation  by the player but a matter of protocolling events of projectile motion and performance on the server and creating log reports of

every event (fire shell impact on any surface water, hull armor...) wich is calculated by the server so it should be relatively easy to add some lines of code wich logs the events of a shell live

 

such as

 

Begin event

shell identifier, 

-shell speed

-shell trajectory(vector)

-shell status(projectile whole, decapped, yaw, fuze set...)

-where I am spatial coordinates

-where I am (module...)

-what is hit (water, plate...)

-where I am if I penetrate(module, air, water)

-result of event (pentration ricochet, struck in plate, shatter, topple....)

-shell status after event (ther are dynamic variables such as yaw wich change with increasing distance from the event

-shell speed after event

-shell vector after event)

end event

....

next event

 


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Just engaged Tirpitz in my New Orleans at 14-15km. As soon as he started turnign his guns on me I started meneuvering away from him. He fire and by the time shells reached me I was angled "perfectly" showing only my stern. 25k damage. So everythign is back to "normal" :hiding: 

 

Btw, in other topic, somebody posted a screenshot showing Amagi hitting for 17k damage with one hit. Looks like one shell dealt "double" damage for citadel and normal penetration(33%). So thats another potential bug. 

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/36831-are-you-satisfied-with-0511-patch/page__pid__681291#entry681291

 

 

 


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Btw, in other topic, somebody posted a screenshot showing Amagi hitting for 17k damage with one hit. Looks like one shell dealt "double" damage for citadel and normal penetration(33%). So thats another potential bug.

 

On the German cruisers, the citadel modules have a large overlap with the hull modules, so this may be a common problem for them. This is also true for the Tirpitz (although the overlap is smaller), and probably anything else with the WW1-style armour layout. It's very likely to be a bug, as are the overpen + pen damage results.

 


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Hi all,

 

This was posted on NA forum...

 

"Quick illustration to what happened between 5.0.3 and 5.1.1"
 

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/57854-quick-illustration-to-what-happened-between-503-and-511/

 

 

6dTQQwo.jpg

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

The image lacks the most important change, AP shells that overpenetrate the citadel for 10% damage.

 

It's untrue that most ship have their citadel underwater, especially low tier scout cruisers have huge citadels above the waterline, and I've did extensive testing with both 203mm and 356mm shells vs Kuma and similar ships, and its only possible to citadel them under the waterline. With BBs. CLs and DDs however can citadel them without a problem by shooting under the smokestacks.

 

Kumas citadel for reference: 

 

wtAgOjG.png

 

Edited by AttiliusRex

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yeah i noticed it still on the day with the band aid and posted it already few times - the system is still fucked just 1 part of it was kinda fix'ed where others are compleatly not functional still - thats why this system should never be realesed but put on test server for month or two and the old turned back for the time.

Edited by t0ffik1

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I'm happy for a citadel to be hard to penetrate on all ships and it should only be penetrated at very close range or very lucky shots, but to compensate the base damage of AP shells should be raised to around 5-8000 per shell 

 

I don't think that's right. Cruisers get very lucky citadels. Battleships get them as a matter of course. I play a battleship for those huge citadel hits. I accept that I'm slow, the target of any and all attacks, have huge CD on my abilities, very long reload times and very bad accuracy on my guns, all for that ability to reliably hit citadels with my huge-a$$ guns.

 

Now you want to tell me, that I should not be allowed to hit those citadels? Why would I ever want to play a battleship then? Cruisers are better at AA, have a MUCH easier time of hitting small and maneuverable targets, do more DPM than battleships, may have torpedoes, get places quicker, can be quite tanky if steered well and can detect stealthed targets. They are much better than battleships in all regards, except for raw tankiness and alpha-damage. Turns out cruisers, which are supposed to be the prefered prey for battleships, now do more damage per salvo than said battleships most of the time while firing twice or thrice faster. And you want BBs not to be able to citadel properly?

 

 

Edit: Alright, I gotta say this: Since the bugged citadel on cruisers got fixed, I basically have no reason to play battleships anymore. Cruisers are supposed to be my prey, along with battleships. I'm doing almost no damage to cruisers with AP. Yes, I might get a citadel occasionally, but that's like once every 10 salvos on cruisers, if even that. That's way too much time required. HE will do much more stable damage, but there are no citadel hits with HE and the fire rate on battleship guns is somewhat too slow to make it feel worthwhile.

I really need reduced overpen vs. cruisers, or maybe the 30° auto-bounce needs to be removed. It didn't exist in reality and that may be all the difference between battleships actually being the cruiser killers and cruisers being immune to battleship AP damage.

 

As it stands, cruisers do more damage to battleships, than battleship will do to cruisers. HE somewhat helps with that, but if I wanted HE, i wouldn't play a battleship...

 

Edited by PaterFrog

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Hi all,

 

This was posted on NA forum...

 

"Quick illustration to what happened between 5.0.3 and 5.1.1"
 

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/57854-quick-illustration-to-what-happened-between-503-and-511/

 

 

6dTQQwo.jpg

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

The last picture is weird. As you show 3 incoming shells, which have 4 'hits'; 2x citadel, 1x 33% dmg and 1 overpen.

 

Can you (or someone else) can clear this up? I like to know how to get some citadels again with my BB :) I am currently lost.

I sail a Miyogi and was pretty decent in citadelling, but with the latest patches I got very confused. Does the rule "aim below the smokestacks at the waterline" applicable? And then at what range use AP? <10km use AP and >10km HE?

 


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The last picture is weird. As you show 3 incoming shells, which have 4 'hits'; 2x citadel, 1x 33% dmg and 1 overpen.

 

Can you (or someone else) can clear this up? I like to know how to get some citadels again with my BB :) I am currently lost.

I sail a Miyogi and was pretty decent in citadelling, but with the latest patches I got very confused. Does the rule "aim below the smokestacks at the waterline" applicable? And then at what range use AP? <10km use AP and >10km HE?

 

The round that bounces from the citadel shows two case scenarios. It might bounce and go out the other side of the ship, or it might explode within the casemate (above the citadel) and do normal penetration damage.

 

The rule to aim at the waterline is still applicable, they changed nothing about the models, where exactly you need to aim varies from ship to ship, but yeah, aiming for the center works well enough.

A fact you need to know: Many, if not most ships have their citadel BELOW water. They start at, or very slightly above the waterline and go all the way down, close to the keel. That  means, if you hit with a flat arc, you're not ever getting citadels above the waterline, only below, because all shells that impact at 30° or below get bounced automatically. Another fact: The waterline is not the current level of water, but the dividing edge between red belly and grey/colored side. You need to hit into that belly, basically through water. Against BBs, the best way to get citadels is to either fire plunging shots at extreme ranges, or maneuver in such a way that they turn around you. What that does is that it causes their entire ship to list away sharply, exposing their belly to you. If you place shots into that red area, you'll get many citadel hits per salvo. Basically, in a knife fight against another BB, you want to sail like this: Straight at them, then, between salvos, turn AWAY from them. Not completely, but so far, that it allows you to fire all your guns at him while being angled as much as possible. This will cause you to turn into a wide circle. The enemy BB will be drawn in towards you, into a sharp turn that will cause them to list sharply, exposing their belly to you. You should get several citadels from every single salvo. Here is how to counter this, should it happen to you: Once the enemy turns away from you in an attempt to force you to turn into them, instead also turn away, even if it takes you a while to align your guns again. This mean that both of you are now sailing away from each other while sharply angled. That's basically a sort of reset. Nobody gets the advantage this way.  Save your shots for a moment to see what the enemy does, if they start exposing their belly, show no mercy. You might also be able to take out one of their turrets by firing at them, but don't forget that the front of a turret is usually armored the thickest of the entire ship. You're not likely to lose or destroy a turret head-on. From the side or top, it's much easier, so this is more of a last resort thing, when you expect to die with their next salvo and you shooting at/below their waterline won't kill them.

 

Against cruisers, you might get citadels via plunging fire at your max range, or you'll just overpen for *0.1 damage. You won't get any citadels into their broadside outside of plunging fire, unless you manage to land a hit below water. Best thing to do is to switch to HE, or fire AP when they're angled. When you have AP loaded and you're not 18+ km away, try to fire very slightly below their waterline. If you get lucky, a shell might dive into their citadel. Use the same salvo to switch to HE. Do not engage cruisers at close range, they do more damage to you, than you do to them. Cruisers are the new BBs.

Edited by PaterFrog

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Not correct, as currently from 15k and more my bb shots bounce off from cruiser superstrucktures (from bb's also have huge bounce off ratio what is absurd) - so plunging fire doesnt work vs them, just medium range you can citadel, and by some miracles on close range shells dont do dmg but overpen even 200-250mm armor total and dont activate in between what is ABSURD, as first 100mm armor would already activate it.

To it huge number of cruisers has citadels above waterline who if you hit also do only 0.1 dmg value of a shell - what is even more of a nonsens.

The number of decreasing player number is because you cant dmg dd's properly as they have advtange over you, you cant dmg cruisers proeprly also if they are on high range or on close range = [edited]

BB's cant dmg anything exept other BB's reliably in current situation.

And thats why i see lately on mid tiers even more carriers then players in matches.

 

So meaning a 30mm armor can bounce off a BB shell on plunging fire while it cant bouce off a cruisre shell - as i play mostly bb's and i have way bigger number of BB shells bouncing off from me then cruiser (and this should get FIXED ASAP - as it started with 0.5.1 patch)

 

And they want to start ranked matches... what [edited] 

Edited by t0ffik1

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I don't bounce shells on cruisers, I mostly overpen. Sometimes I get a citadel, but yeah, it's rare. I don't get any citadels between 10 and 15 km, but when I get close enough to aim just below their waterline, then I sometimes (rarely) get a citadel through the water.

 

But yes, I'm still of the opinion that they need to roll back that patch.


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Nah you'll still be able to take away halve the HP of a cruiser with a single salvo. A cruiser needs to shoot a BB for minutes.

 

A cruiser needs to shoot me for maybe 1 minute to kill me. I need to shoot the cruiser 1 minute for 2 to 6k damage. Yeah.

 

And remember, BBs are supposed to be the natural enemies of cruisers. Cruisers can kill DDs in 1 or two salvos. Why can't BBs do that to cruisers?

Edited by PaterFrog

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naa not roll back the patch PaterFrog, i would say balance out the stupid oveprpens - as i can live with little lower chances of citadels (damn i make still at lest 1-2 per match on cruisers alone even on rankeds) but for example shooting nagato shells is a horror (fuso shells overpen/bounce off less as they have higher angle).

 

And no a cruiser doesnt have to shoot for minutes... He just needs to shoot till he gets 1-2 fires and then can run while you burn lose 40-50% hp

Edited by t0ffik1

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Thx for the explanation!

 

But I still don't understand this:

 

 

In each case I fire AP at a still standing Furutaka @ 4km.

 

I always aim at the same area.

 

130mm AP (33.5 kg) - Boom - 13 citadel hits, target destroyed in 22 seconds.

 

152mm AP (47.6 kg) - Boom - 6 citadel hits, target destroyed in 22 seconds.

 

356mm AP (673.5 kg) - ...... - 0 citadel hits,  target destroyed in 61 seconds.

 

Why do 130 / 152mm AP rounds still wreck the Furutakas citadel but 356mm AP does NOT?

 

 

 

Something very strange happened with the Furutaka and AP in 0.5.1. and I don't know if that is sorted. I fired about 80 shots ap shots on a furutaka with a koningsberg in 0.5.1. 30 plus landed in the citadel area, I didn't score ONE citadel and I did not sink her. Then a New Mexico shows me his broadside - I have AP loaded so I fire: 1 Citadel all the rest of the shots penetrated 8.500 damage done against a NEW MEXICO. Meanwhile the Furutaka managed to sail away still floating... Mind blown.

 

On a side note - I find it curious that WG made the training room almost impossible to access, and thus forcing aslan to remove it from his mod pack at a time when we need it more than ever for testing... Do you want our help or not! Looking at the videos posted on page one of this thread it clearly would help with community testing and understanding of the game mechanics.

Edited by KapteinSabeltann

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Your damage model is a joke.  I just hit a St Louis Class Cruiser with 5 HE shell from a Myogi (Battle Cruiser)  where each round delivers around 1200 lbs of HE. that comes up to a total of 6000 lbs of explosives.  Given that the first round struck the Cruiser with around 50% damage already inflicted those 5 round should have at least decommissioned, rendered it dead in the water, it. If it were a level 7 or above Cruiser I could understand not inflicting as much damage.  Your developers have nerfed the damage stats to the point that level 4 cruisers can go toe to to with a battle cruiser or battleship with impunity.  Who gave you the idea that this was the least bit intelligent.  If all you are trying to do is make the DD and Cruiser users happy congratulations you get the moron badge of the year.  No wonder people are leaving this game in droves.  What a pack of idiots you have programming and developing game play.  Battleships were called that because of the damage they do, you have effectively nerfed them into a gradiose version of a paperweight on a shelf because you wish to give light cruisers and DD's happiness.  Give the DD's better torpedos that fire more than 7k but don't downplay the damage done by 300mm and above shells.  No I am not talking absolute realism but if you ever saw the damage a shell of that caliber actually does you would not have nerfed them to the point that it takes 45 of them to sink one light cruiser.  My rant is done if you cannot fix this gross inadequacy in the game then your intelligence is suspect and your developers should be fired.

Edited by MF_Halsey

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Setting fires, and since the damage model causes the AP to over penetrate and do little or no damage what is the point of using AP.  The developers have rendered it impotent against Cruisers.  Through 3 previous battles using AP I hit Cruisers at least 20 times with no significant damage inflicted.  Like I said the damage model has been so screwed up CA/CL's can go toe to toe with BB's and do it without fear of excessive damage.

 

Edited by MF_Halsey

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Nice sighting reticle, that is not the reticle I have. Mine is a straight mil relation line with no offset lines. That doesn't show the problem.  I am getting the hits with AP and HE and the damage is not proportional to the caliber of weapon hitting the target.  Cruiser hits are disproportionate to the caliber of shell being fired.

I don't care if they get 4 hits, 4 hits on a BB/BC with 133 to 155mm shells should not inflict more damage than 4 hits with shells of 300mm+.

 


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Hello, i have a problem with this ARP missions, I have completed one of that which give the ARP Kongo battleship, but i haven't got a place for that, and i didn't became it.


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Hello, i have a problem with this ARP missions, I have completed one of that which give the ARP Kongo battleship, but i haven't got a place for that, and i didn't became it.

 

Dude, totally wrong topic 

click on the blue anchor icon at the top left and change the port to yokusaka.

Edited by Hateshinaku

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Why my PDs can't be united as the 3th currency to by another ships same and different kind?

Why my captains (jap., manga, premium) can't be moved on another ship "no race"?


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Hi all! I think that system of "team killer" it's a really wrong thing!!! I killed for error, of course, as 98% of the times it happens in game, and it is really unfair that thing in case of collision with another ship all damages are owned by team killer!!!! in a game i found a really idiot player! and i'd like to report him, 7nos7 that is his name, who started to push my ship, causing damages till to die! REALLY REALLY UNFAIR!!!! also because many times if you launch torps, many players they doesn't even watch or hear alarms for incoming torps, and so it happens that you kill a mate, anyway that team killer system is really shitting and unfair!!!!!! UNFAIR!!!!!!


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