karsun

0.5.1.0 AP Damage Model Clarification

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Is there any module layout available, Red area might just be waterline belt and maybe citadel actually sits lower?

 8GTLwOz.jpg

 

Citadel is behind the red line in case of the Furutaka. Some ships have it lower, but the Furutaka's citadel is pretty much 1:1 with the belt armor.


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Regarding the HE damage - This is also being investigated.  It's not as widely reported/highlighted by players as the AP shell issue was but rest assured this is also being investigated to see if there is an issue with specific guns.


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That is easy, shell trajectory. For 130mm it is allmost half of its firing range, For Omaha it is 1/3 and for Fuso less than 1/5. So shell hit the citadel at different angles. 130mm at good angle, 6.inch at slightly worse angle. And Fuso shells hit the citadel roof at autobounce angle, or very close to it.

 

Explain this:

 

furulds9z.jpg

 

citadelyobek68.jpg

 

HOW are these shells hitting "the citadel's roof"???

Edited by Trigger_Happy_Dad

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Explain this:

 

 

 

HOW are these shells hitting "the citadel's roof"???

I agree, no explanation here. 

 

I am currently testing it against Nagato. At first glance looks even more durable.


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Hi,

 

From the most tuff ships, bb are now one of the weakest.

 

Tested several ships (North Carolina is my highest ) and update brought mess,  lower dmg, rare citadels distance >13km . 

 

It is some joke?  bb are easy target for cruisers fast shooting dd  , so keep investigation fast about this bug becouse nobody buy new armored toys in shop , for ohters that is so annoying , no wonder bb are camping , close distance fight for example with torp cruiser is suicide.


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What I don't understand is how you get those salvo damages.

 

12852

10506

 

Penetration damage is 3400, overpenetration is 1020. There's no way to get to those odd numbers with that. And the HP of the midsection wasn't depleted yet or the next salvo wouldn't have kept damaging it.

 

To me it looks like the new damage model also caps penetration damage somehow.

Edited by fnord_disc

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What I don't understand is how you get those salvo damages.

 

12852

10506

 

Penetration damage is 3400, overpenetration is 1020. There's no way to get to those odd numbers with that. And the HP of the midsection wasn't depleted yet or the next salvo wouldn't have kept damaging it.

 

It's possible the ship section's health was depleted. When they turn "black" they take reduced damage (bow, stern, superstructure, hull) which would explain it.

 

Edit: Yep you can see the middle section go black after the first salvo in video 2.


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It's possible the ship section's health was depleted. When they turn "black" they take reduced damage (bow, stern, superstructure, hull) which would explain it.

 

Edit: Yep you can see the middle section go black after the first salvo in video 2.

 

Yes, but the next salvo he fired did roughly the same damage. It can't have been depleted yet. Edited by fnord_disc

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This is honestly the best post i´ve seen here yet. Thanks for the explanation and more importantly, the communication!

 


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Well i still think BBs simply overpenetrate cruisers citadels broadside on. I don't really understand why it happens after the armr rework though, since armor should have become stronger. But since the patch side-on hits overpenetrate and as soon as ships start to angle alot of my BB shells bounce, especially for high caliber guns.

 

On the other hand, with Arkansas Beta i still get alot of citadel hits on cruisers, carriers and BB easily.


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The 203 mm guns on CA's are useless too when we shoot Ap ammo.I tested yesterday and today my Atago ,Ibuki and Zao .Atago and Ibuki AP ammo is not working, they ricochet and bounce off all the time even when the enemy CA show her broadside total useless to shoot Ap, aganist BB's the AP do zero damage , lol!!! HE is the only damage source. Zao are interesting too, zero citadel hits but constans dmg with Ap around from 4 too 6 k dmg, when i shoot  HE i make 8-9k dmg, hilarious. When i shoot high tier BB's Yamato ,Montana ,Iowa and Izumo i can damege them with AP around 5-6K, then why cant i citadel some the lighter armored cruisers? This 5.1 patch is total garbage.

I hope some patch will fix this because the constans HE pew pew is boring and miserable.

Edited by Martaloc801124

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There are a few things that seem likely 

 

1. I think that citadel hits are overpenning, which from what I understood prepatch was not possible . If you hit the citadel , it was a citadel. 

 

2. Compounding this the dev's have highlighted that compartments are involved. Maybe after each slab of armor is penetrated , the arm reset of the shell is reset instead of only being set on the 1st armor hit, This would explain why you are getting an operpen on the large caliber's which may have a longer arm time than the small calibers. The arm time is never actually long enough to trigger before the shell has gone completely through the ship as it keeps getting reset.

 

This can explain why the smaller calibers in the same tier have no problems getting citadels while the large calibers just show bounce and overpen. It can also explain while ships are angling they get citadelled, but while broadsided they overpen. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by dlbomber

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With small calibers are some issues too, i played my Murmansk , after 5.1 was not problem to her citadel pen high tier cruisers Pensacola and Myoko. Today i cant citadel one Aoba from 6 km , i shoot my first citadel to her form 3,4 km .The 152 mm CL guns suffer the 5.1 patch too. AP suck very hard now.

Edited by Martaloc801124

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I think I might found the root cause of the problem. At least one of them.

 

The game currently takes under consideration the last armor contact when defining the damage applied. The situaton described on the pic:

 

16a956ea-879a-11e5-9a31-ac162d8bc1e4.jpg

shows a shell for which the last contact was a bounce. Therefore zero damage is applied to such hit. It gets counted as a bounce and not as a normal penetration.

 

This would explain situation where you get 6 hits from BB to CA for only 4k damage. So 4 of your hits were standard overpens through unprotected parts of armor and 2 have been counted as bounces (from internal citadel armor).

 

What does this mean in practise when firing BB to CA? Here's a comparison how such an example salvo (6 hits including 4 standard overpens & 2 internal citadel bounces) would be resolved under:

a) 4.1 = 2 citadels + 4 overpens = 2*10+4*1 = 24k damage. That's the kaboom situation we've been quite used to.

b) 5.1 as intended = 2 normal pens + 4 overpens = 2*3+4*1 = 10k damage. Still a bit too small penalty for a reckless cruiser but giving both sides chances. For CA to withdraw, for BB to be able to kill him. Acceptable I'd say.

c) 5.1 as implemented = 2 bounces + 4 overpens = 2*0+4*1 = 4k damage. In your face!

 

This still doesn't explain why CA's are still able to citadelother CA's. Perhaps as in the comment above:

 

That is easy, shell trajectory. For 130mm it is allmost half of its firing range, For Omaha it is 1/3 and for Fuso less than 1/5. So shell hit the citadel at different angles. 130mm at good angle, 6.inch at slightly worse angle. And Fuso shells hit the citadel roof at autobounce angle, or very close to it.

 

 

 

 


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I also was very surprised when playing the mogami against an angled Izumo I did 5k damage with 9 AP shells, dont know how many hit them but it should have been 0 damage, or maybe a couple of hundred.

How the hell am I bouncing with an Iowa's 406mm shells on the Izumo from the same angle, and dealing decent damage with 155mm shells from a mogami....

 

How much more broken can it be...


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So Nagato vs Furutaka. I do have replays, but no point to upload.I tryed do take as big sample rate than possible, so they are long and boring.

 

Furutaka. Aiming point - waterline, below smokestacks. No angle

 

@4km - average of 5.salvos to kill. No Citadel Penetrations. Average hit rate 4,5 rounds per salvo

@6,9 km average salvos to kill 5.salvos.No Citadel Penetrations. Average hit rate 4. round per salvo.

@8.5 km average salvos to kill 1,5.salvos. Average of 1,5 citadel penetration per salvo.Average hit rate 4 round per salvo.

 

But to make Cruiser players even more happy. This was not only thing I tested.

 

So. Nagato vs Yamato

Yamato, aiming point - waterline, below superfiring turret.No angle

 

@4.km average salvos to kill 3 salvos.Average of 2.citadel penetration per salvo.Average hit rate 5.rounds per salvo.

@6,2km average salvos to kill 3,5 salvos. Average of 2 citadel penetration per salvo.Average hit rate 4,5 round per salvo.

15kiea.jpg

@9.km. average salvos to kill 4.salvos.Average of 1,8.citadel penetration per salvo.Average hit rate 4,5.round per salvo

 

Observation, while I aimed below the turret, I knocked the engine out several times during testing. Nice dispersion.

 

Nagato vs Montana.

 

Montana.Aiming point - waterline, between smokestacks. No angle.

 

@5 KM - average salvos to kill 3.salvos.Average of 3.citadels per salvo.Average hit rate 5.rounds per salvo.

 

17xuzq.jpg

 

@6.km- average salvos to kill 3,5.salvos.Average of 2.citadels per salvo.Average hit rate 5.round per salvo.

@9.km - average salvos to kill 4.salvos.Average of 2.citadels per salvo.Average hit rate 4,8 round per salvo.

Edited by mariouus

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44smok #39 Posted Today, 04:48 PM

Petty Officer

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    07-02-2015

I think I might found the root cause of the problem. At least one of them.

 

The game currently takes under consideration the last armor contact when defining the damage applied. The situaton described on the pic:

 

16a956ea-879a-11e5-9a31-ac162d8bc1e4.jpg

shows a shell for which the last contact was a bounce. Therefore zero damage is applied to such hit. It gets counted as a bounce and not as a normal penetration.

 

This would explain situation where you get 6 hits from BB to CA for only 4k damage. So 4 of your hits were standard overpens through unprotected parts of armor and 2 have been counted as bounces (from internal citadel armor).

 

What does this mean in practise when firing BB to CA? Here's a comparison how such an example salvo (6 hits including 4 standard overpens & 2 internal citadel bounces) would be resolved under:

a) 4.1 = 2 citadels + 4 overpens = 2*10+4*1 = 24k damage. That's the kaboom situation we've been quite used to.

b) 5.1 as intended = 2 normal pens + 4 overpens = 2*3+4*1 = 10k damage. Still a bit too small penalty for a reckless cruiser but giving both sides chances. For CA to withdraw, for BB to be able to kill him. Acceptable I'd say.

c) 5.1 as implemented = 2 bounces + 4 overpens = 2*0+4*1 = 4k damage. In your face!

 

This still doesn't explain why CA's are still able to citadelother CA's. Perhaps as in the comment above:

 

That is easy, shell trajectory. For 130mm it is allmost half of its firing range, For Omaha it is 1/3 and for Fuso less than 1/5. So shell hit the citadel at different angles. 130mm at good angle, 6.inch at slightly worse angle. And Fuso shells hit the citadel roof at autobounce angle, or very close to it.

 

With 203 mm guns on my Zao i cant citadel any cruiser from normal range around 8-15 km. I played another round with Zao and i hit only 1 ,not 2 or 3 or more only one shity citadel to a Mogami from 5.9 km ,yes top CA Zao  can citadel another cruiser !!!!!! Cruisers AP's working , sure, everithing is fine!!!!!! That was sarcasm.  Not whine your BB'S captains were Ca captains have hard time too.

 


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Spent few hours in Training Room, at close range Pensacolas citadel area as well as superstructure was practically immune to Iowas main battery, as well as Zao's, Ibuki's and Baltimore's. The only way I got penetration damage was to shoot them at long ranges, head on or when they were heavily angled. I had an expression that the shells didn't have time to arm and detonate when they overpenned the citadel, so they just harmlessly flew trough the boiler rooms and magazines. Meanwhile Yamato took a whopping 84,000 citadel damage from full salvo to citadel area at close range, while Zao took a mere 8000. Kinda sucks the immersion out of this game...

 

Switched to Kongo, Furutaka's and Königsberg's citadel and pretty much the entire ship was immune broadside fire from 8-9 km. Once again, I managed to get the citadel shooting right from behind and from longer ranges.

 

 


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44smok #39 Posted Today, 04:48 PM

Petty Officer

  • photo-thumb-529245024-5627e58a.jpg?_r=14
  • Players
  • 257message_img.png
  • Member since:
    07-02-2015

I think I might found the root cause of the problem. At least one of them.

 

The game currently takes under consideration the last armor contact when defining the damage applied. The situaton described on the pic:

 

16a956ea-879a-11e5-9a31-ac162d8bc1e4.jpg

shows a shell for which the last contact was a bounce. Therefore zero damage is applied to such hit. It gets counted as a bounce and not as a normal penetration.

 

This would explain situation where you get 6 hits from BB to CA for only 4k damage. So 4 of your hits were standard overpens through unprotected parts of armor and 2 have been counted as bounces (from internal citadel armor).

 

What does this mean in practise when firing BB to CA? Here's a comparison how such an example salvo (6 hits including 4 standard overpens & 2 internal citadel bounces) would be resolved under:

a) 4.1 = 2 citadels + 4 overpens = 2*10+4*1 = 24k damage. That's the kaboom situation we've been quite used to.

b) 5.1 as intended = 2 normal pens + 4 overpens = 2*3+4*1 = 10k damage. Still a bit too small penalty for a reckless cruiser but giving both sides chances. For CA to withdraw, for BB to be able to kill him. Acceptable I'd say.

c) 5.1 as implemented = 2 bounces + 4 overpens = 2*0+4*1 = 4k damage. In your face!

 

This still doesn't explain why CA's are still able to citadelother CA's. Perhaps as in the comment above:

 

 

With 203 mm guns on my Zao i cant citadel any cruiser from normal range around 8-15 km. I played another round with Zao and i hit only 1 ,not 2 or 3 or more only one shity citadel to a Mogami from 5.9 km ,yes top CA Zao  can citadel another cruiser !!!!!! Cruisers AP's working , sure, everithing is fine!!!!!! That was sarcasm.  Not whine your BB'S captains were Ca captains have hard time too.

 

Well I tested New Orleans in coop. Have a look at my video on myntourube channel (signature). For me it's clearly fine (for New Orleans vs. Mogami anyway. 

- thread is now numbers numbers numbers. I shall wait for an official update :)


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Are the massive amounts of overpenetration BBs get against close, broadside cruisers wanted?

 

I think those were already there before the patch, but the occasional citadel masked the issue. I'm definitely not seeing the detonation in the casemate which is sketched above.

 

This may be the origin of this whole mess - even without the false-citadel bug the pre 0.5.1 armor model wasn't working correctly (i.e. too many overpens), but the occasional false citadel masked this lack of damage. Maybe this is why the devs thought it would not have a big influence - because they still counted for the pens to happen, only they didn't and maybe never did.

 

I definitely remember close shots at cruisers pre 0.5.1 with only overpens, but usually the next or the volley after would squeeze a citadel then.

 

Just a theory, what do you guys think...?

Thats exactly what i felt even before the patch. Complements.

Edited by Ebu34

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Admiral-Noodle

Well I tested New Orleans in coop. Have a look at my video on myntourube channel (signature). For me it's clearly fine (for New Orleans vs. Mogami anyway. 

- thread is now numbers numbers numbers. I shall wait for an official update :)

 

I see youre youtube video and you not  convienced me, you shooted the Mogami closer as me . Your first salvo hit from 4 km !!!!!!!! from 8 hit only 1 citadel ?! That is not normal.Pre patch i bloved any cruser up from 10+km with 6 or more citadel hit and you shot from 3 salvo only 3 citadel.From 20+ hit from pointblanc range only 3 citadel comon ,this is nothing and [edited]. Ap not working. When you shoot low tier BB and from 8 hit 1 citadel thats ok , but Mogami?From this distancance all 8 hit must be citadel not only 1. This is nothing.

 

Edited by Martaloc801124

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It's ridicoulus how AP shells work now. After 47 hits with AP shells into cruisers and Amagi I get a total dmg done in a Tirpitz at 17k (I used to have better results prepatch even if I got sunk very early after the battle started). My shells were only scratching the paintjob. At the same time two Pensacolas pumped me with constant rain of HE shells causing masive fires along the whole ship. With those changes you made BBs useless to the team and pretty much unplayable. 

 

 


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Regarding the HE damage - This is also being investigated.  It's not as widely reported/highlighted by players as the AP shell issue was but rest assured this is also being investigated to see if there is an issue with specific guns.

 

There seems to be something very wrong here too.

 

27 hits with HE from Arkansas Beta all over BBs and cruisers, most bounced.

 

 

Edited by mingbat

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