Dispersion / Penetration in 0.5.1.

[Valerius]

IF they did change the mechanics behind citadels and I have to stress the IF part... then BBs are better off using HE exclusively now. The only targets you are going to "reliably" get citadels on are other BBs, and with them only being around 1/3rd of the enemy team there really is no point in loading AP at all.

 

BB HE shells do have insane fire chance so it's very possible to get the same ammount of damage as with AP against other BBs unless in a close range brawl.

[Unintentional_submarine]

"Meanwhile, the players that have tended to play it a bit more safe before (doesn't mean they are bad, not at all), haven't really noticed much difference."

 

Spot on. There I was not noticing because while I don't think I'm a bad bb player I'm a naturally conservative defensive player. I don't camp but I am not an aggressive player. First I try *not to lose* then push late on in the game. The very definition of "safe". The games I've been doing well on are those where we've been losing and I've had to focus hard to defend and pull the game round. I've been winning those because the changed suit that (my) play style.

 

I worry this isn't good because it will encourage "over safe" by sniping. And I don't think we want people to be less aggressive than me...

 

it it also makes warspite and Nagato *bad*. (I am already bad in those two). 

 

For or now I'll focus on cruisers and stick to Kongo for my bb fix. . Two Murmansk games today - using a lot of successful AP I might add - two confederates. I'll be giving new Orleans  a spin too. 

 

I might have worded it wrong, but I meant that in general the good BB players also tend to be more aggressive. Not exclusively that of course (not all good are aggressive and not all aggressive are good). And there is naturally a distinction between aggressive and reckless. Aggressive isn't charging in, sometimes it is, but usually not right away. It is more edging towards a position where you are suddenly at a good range. Like coming around an island at short range. That play centered on the capability to knock out a cruiser very quickly to avoid his superior DPM and torpedoes (if he had them).

A good cruiser would naturally not put himself in such a compromising situation in the first place, and so we have a little cat and mouse game going on. I liked that. Not just for the kills, but also the thrills it gives me. The anticipation, the realisation of a plan going right, the realisation that the plan didn't go right and then scrambling to recover quickly (say you run into two cruisers and a destroyer instead of that single cruiser).

 

I dislike the long range volleyball game. It is useful in smaller doses, like when moving into position.

[LetsRockAndRoll]

so has this been fixed? can i continue playing? is the draw simulator (zone) still not reverted?

 

 

 

Why am I not remotely surprised that there has been no comment whatsoever from any WG official?

 

[TheJezna]

Still seems so weird that something like this is happening. As far as I can tell, this was not part of the patch when it was on the test server, I played there a lot and didn't notice and there was no one mentioning anything in the community as far as I know. This means it must have been introduced after test, meaning either they intentionally introduced a quite revolutionaty change without letting the community test it, or even know about it or it happened somehow by mistake, which implies that their process for configuring, building and testing the software must be lacking.

 

Neither of the options paint a pretty picture: If it was unintentional then how can we trust anything they are doing to the game, given that quite game breaking defects can slip through, and equally bad remain unadressed for days and days, not even a word about it. And if it was intentional, well then first of all this is another of those really weird and bad gameplay decisions from the balancing team, a candidate for being one of the worst so far. It's also disheartening that they would change the game so fundamentally without as much as a sentence in the patch notes, let alone discussing it with the community, rigorously testing and tweaking it and explaining what issue they are trying to address and why.

 

So, either we are dealing with gross incompetence or we are dealing with a lack of understanding of their own game combined with a total lack of communication capabilities and outright dishonesty. I quite frankly wouldn't have believed it if I heard of something like this happening without a single attempt to communicate with the players if it was any other game (except WoT of course), but sadly I am not even that surprised.

[Doerte]

Atago is NOT OP

 

Its quite funny to go side on to any battleship and not really care anymore

 

So it is not just me and my peers, that had to laugh really hard, as they annoinced that "Atago NEEDED a buff". Was an awesome multi-role ship before (plagued maybe by many sub-par YOLO-captains) and now has gotten a lot better. And it will still not change, that sunk Atagos provided about 1/3 of "First Blood"-badges. ^^

 

Wallet warriors will wallet...

[GeneralRushHour]

It has to be something that went wrong, i really hope so. 

I preferred my Balti pre-patch even though BBs could one shot you because of your own stupidity.

i felt the AP was frankly perfect pre-patch. The only tweak i would have liked to see was a small bump in HE fire probability, i think that would move cruisers closer to BBs and keep BB players more on their toes.

[Tyrendian89]

remain unadressed for days and days, not even a word about it

 

there's this thing called a weekend you know... not saying that's an excuse for it happening in the first place, but we shouldn't have expected this to be fixed before monday realistically. Which takes us back to the whole "who the hell patches on a Friday" thing...

[t0ffik1]

 

 

You know why it is generally the better players that are complaining? Because they are overall also the players that tend to force the issue and get closer. They try to get into the sweet range, or previous sweet range I would say, where a lot of shells would hit true, RGN or not. It isn't that long range hits can't be managed of course, but at shorter ranges more hits become citadels with good aim, and so the better aiming of the better players become more profound in it's impact... until now. Meanwhile, the players that have tended to play it a bit more safe before (doesn't mean they are bad, not at all), haven't really noticed much difference.

 

 

 

Not rly, most ppl who were able to correctly aim at medium ranges for citadels on BB's were the SUPERIOR ones on LONG range also - and if they say there is off (like me) on every range (specially the ones 12k under) then it is (as movies show).

I have experience with tier 5-8 bb's (well amagi i use barely for coops, but on my other account where i use pure USN ships i have already Iowa unlocked) and for example my avarage acc for nagato is 31% (so that counts all ranges) and i can tell you the dispersion is off on every range (so its not only the acc module not working) but the penetration values also on every range, as pre patch i was able to citadel all tier 5-6-7 ships on long range, pretty decently.

The YT movies also show it.

 

IF they did change the mechanics behind citadels and I have to stress the IF part... then BBs are better off using HE exclusively now. The only targets you are going to "reliably" get citadels on are other BBs, and with them only being around 1/3rd of the enemy team there really is no point in loading AP at all.

BB HE shells do have insane fire chance so it's very possible to get the same ammount of damage as with AP against other BBs unless in a close range brawl.

If you would do the math then a cruiser of tier 7+ has around 100-150% more chances to start a fire in 30s time then a BB. 

So no... HE wont work for BB's also.

[malchai]

I played around a bit and you just cannot hit a cruisers citadel from broad side, dunno if it is an angle problem or if you actually overpenetrate the cit(?!) otherwise everything seems fine. (Setup was Nagato vs tier 6 & 7 cruisers)

[Doerte]

Having read all these posts and taking a break from Warships for 2 days, it looks as if we are all pretty much on the same page about the current state of high-end BB AP dmg, dispersion and normalisation being broken to a state, where it disrupts the rock-paper-scissor mechanic between ship-classes.

 

I think, that is (sadly) a first here on the forums. 

 

Upside is: Enjoy your Cruisers dominating BBs for now. That is... if there are still people playing BBs now.^^

[IceyJones]

btw. just played the hipper

was not able to citadel a PENSACOLA from 8km.....with 4 tries....full broad.....

 

a bad joke

 

hmm...i have a bottle of vodka here...maybe i should drink it completly.....maybe i dont see the game flaws then, as WG did not see them during development

[avenger121]

Did a video with Iowa vs Myokos, at distances ranging from 2 to 11 klicks and angles from 0° to 90°. 

 

Results: At 2-6 klicks, no citadels. Almost no penetrations. Almost only overpens. At 8 klicks, occasional citadels. At 10 klicks citadels with almost every salvo. But, if angled (bow or stern of Myoko points towards you), you can citadel or at least penetrate them for good damage rolls even below 6 klicks.

 

......................

 

Damn it, ninjad. I guess uploading all the screens and replays from 2 hours testing is not necessary anymore.

 

What I´ve been testing:

Amagi --> New Orleans: cit hits impossible below 6km, probability increasing with distance

Amagi --> Ibuki: cit hits impossible below 6km, probability increasing with distance

Amagi --> Zao: cit hits impossible below 6km, probability increasing with distance

Amagi --> Hindenburg: cit hits impossible below 6km, probability increasing with distance

Amagi --> Des Moines: cit hits at every range, probability increasing with distance

 

Choose the Amagi because she uses the same shells, which means the same penetration, as the Nagato and Izumo. In other words the most common BB shell in the higher tiers. Citadel hits at the minimum ranges of 6-7km are extremly rare, however, if your are shooting at a perfecty broadside cruisers at 12m you can count on cit hits with nearly every salvoe. Below those ranges I couldnt land a citadel hit in 2 hours of testing. Although I could cit a Des Moines even at ranges like 2km, it was super rare, but it did happen. Had not enough time to test all T8+ cruiser, so I cant tell if there are more exceptions like the Des Moines.

 

Poor Des Moines, patch was supposed to buff the armor, but as it turns out, it just pulled the red card again.

[Valerius]

 

If you would do the math then a cruiser of tier 7+ has around 100-150% more chances to start a fire in 30s time then a BB. 

So no... HE wont work for BB's also.

 

Where exactly did I mention anything about cruiser HE?

My comparison was exclusively between firing AP and firing HE with BBs. It doesn't matter how large of a chance the cruisers have of starting a fire since the chance of starting a fire with AP rounds from a BB is 0% vs +30% with HE.

Added on top of a higher minimum damage value you get a higher damage output with HE rounds than with AP rounds.... IF again IF citadel mechanics were indeed reworked unbeknownst to us.

 

So my comment still stands that you would be better off firing HE than AP at cruisers.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

I would like to say that this is all fine, but I think they might did some crazy stuff to AP ammo. I would love to be a CAmasterrace for a moment, but I think they'll just release another hotfix in a week or so, and everything will go back to normal - BB [edited] on everything else around them, with occasional CV and invisible DD's launching torps here and there. Oh well, got to stat pad Des Moines while I can.

[avenger121]

........... Oh well, got to stat pad Des Moines while I can.

 

[edited]

[IceyJones]

IF they did change the mechanics behind citadels and I have to stress the IF part... then BBs are better off using HE exclusively now. The only targets you are going to "reliably" get citadels on are other BBs, and with them only being around 1/3rd of the enemy team there really is no point in loading AP at all.

 

BB HE shells do have insane fire chance so it's very possible to get the same ammount of damage as with AP against other BBs unless in a close range brawl.

yeah great.....so BBs do 5-8 k HE damage on cruisers every 30 seconds now.......

whioole a cruiser soes 8-10 k damage every 12 seconds...

 

great play

[Doerte]

 

What I´ve been testing:

Amagi --> New Orleans: cit hits impossible below 6km, probability increasing with distance

Amagi --> Ibuki: cit hits impossible below 6km, probability increasing with distance

Amagi --> Zao: cit hits impossible below 6km, probability increasing with distance

Amagi --> Hindenburg: cit hits impossible below 6km, probability increasing with distance

Amagi --> Des Moines: cit hits at every range, probability increasing with distance

 

Hmmm... that sounds pretty bad. As someone who is familiar with the concept of "zone of immunity", that certainly does not apply, when armor of 120-250mm is hit by 400-460mm caliber shells. This can't possibly, what WG was going for.

So by now, I am pretty sure, this is just a bug. And, I feel relieved to think that way, because this will be fixed in the near future, instead of being a ridiculous balance-adjustment, that is here to stay.

[rutra73]

Or maybe WG is trying to bring high tier game to the same level as let's say tier V when BBs don't have such a punch and when u play Murmansk or Koenigsberg, u don't really fear of V tier BBs while BBs from tier VII are really scary to cruisers. Anyway, WG did something, Colorado is an awefull ship to play after this patch, not only there are no citadels but I can't even hit targets at 8-10 clics away.

[Admiral_noodle]

btw. just played the hipper

was not able to citadel a PENSACOLA from 8km.....with 4 tries....full broad.....

 

a bad joke

 

hmm...i have a bottle of vodka here...maybe i should drink it completly.....maybe i dont see the game flaws then, as WG did not see them during development

 

Now then. In PT I played the Germans a lot and it was citadel city... So I suggest the code on live is not the code in test. 

 

I will keep playing BBs and everything else. Maybe the server restart will do something who knows. 

 

However I might focus on lower tiers 3-7 where this problem isn't nearly so prevalent. Or I might just suck it up and see if I can still get results in all ships and adapt (then re adapt when it changes again, which it will). 

 

And you should fear tier V battleships in Murmansk! 

 

Might do some coop to see if "all he" on BBs results in more damage. I don't think it will because even without citadels I was regularly getting the standard 6-11k per salvo on BBs with tirpitz. 

[Valerius]

Or maybe WG is trying to bring high tier game to the same level as let's say tier V when BBs don't have such a punch and when u play Murmansk or Koenigsberg, u don't really fear of V tier BBs while BBs from tier VII are really scary to cruisers. Anyway, WG did something, Colorado is an awefull ship to play after this patch, not only there are no citadels but I can't even hit targets at 8-10 clics away.

 

Colorado has never been able to hit anything reliably, that wasn't changed in the patch

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

If they did, they went too far. I'm totally about buffing CA, but we have to keep it civil you know. Right now it feels too much of a BB nerf. The steps was made in a right direction, but now they should make a one step back, and we're golden. CA should be scared of BB's, but not the same way as in 5.0.3. 

[mariouus]

 

Where exactly did I mention anything about cruiser HE?

My comparison was exclusively between firing AP and firing HE with BBs. It doesn't matter how large of a chance the cruisers have of starting a fire since the chance of starting a fire with AP rounds from a BB is 0% vs +30% with HE.

Added on top of a higher minimum damage value you get a higher damage output with HE rounds than with AP rounds.... IF again IF citadel mechanics were indeed reworked unbeknownst to us.

 

So my comment still stands that you would be better off firing HE than AP at cruisers.

 

Tryed it, not really helpful, averaged at 1400 per shot in Nagato, 6.fires caused only 2200

[GeneralRushHour]

Ap on cruisers work just fine lol. Baltimore is super strong now. 

 

[Valerius]

The Baltimore is not a BB, it's a cruiser. Hence you won't have the same trouble with overpenning against other cruisers as BBs have...

 

 

Tryed it, not really helpful, averaged at 1400 per shot in Nagato, 6.fires caused only 2200

 

 

Which is still better than what you would have done with AP. AP has lower minimum damage than HE, which means even lower average than the 1400 on top of that you wouldn't have gotten 2200 dmg from fire.

 

As a comparison my Iowa does 1350 for each penetrating shot on a cruiser at present (haven't had a citadel yet) vs 1881 + fire chance with HE. Ofc they fix the first fire which means very little actual fire damage unless I score a second fire in the following volley, but that is still more than I would with AP.

[Admiral_noodle]

The Baltimore is not a BB, it's a cruiser. Hence you won't have the same trouble with overpenning against other cruisers as BBs have...

 

 

Which is still better than what you would have done with AP. AP has lower minimum damage than HE, which means even lower average than the 1400 on top of that you wouldn't have gotten 2200 dmg from fire.

 

As a comparison my Iowa does 1350 for each penetrating shot on a cruiser at present (haven't had a citadel yet) vs 1881 + fire chance with HE. Ofc they fix the first fire which means very little actual fire damage unless I score a second fire in the following volley, but that is still more than I would with AP.

 

Agree on the Baltimore. But if you can get a penetration even if it's not a citadel AP is still better vs. Cruisers. Only when they get close have I found the overpens rampant. With the new changes the optimum method ought to be AP at range but HE dds and cruisers at close range. That or try to slow overpens by firing at the sea... As an aside I've found AP effective against "long ways" dds. Did that always happen?