Nuernburg is a joke. Heck everything in the German tree suffers. Everything.

[Psusennes]

 ofc those are good tips.

my "complaint" about the ship is more that you have to satisfy all those conditions to do  as well as others do without .

like  for example  2. dont go alone

if your team onmy goes to retarded places what you do fallow and have no impact or die alone trying to make a difference? (ofc its a cruiser and not a bb but still i think you know what i try to point out)

(and dont get me wrong i like the ship  thats why im posting here)

 

Yes, I know what you are trying to tell me. I agree.

 

WoWs should be a teamwork anyway ;-)

 

[Admiral_noodle]

Love Koenigsberg and I can tell I'm going to love Nurnberg. Cleveland on steroids. Fast reloading long range accurate guns you can actually watch travelling zoomed in.

 

2 rear turrets so you can fire running away - which is what I do

 

They are both bad for people who like to get stuck in and brawl. Well I don't like that. I'd much rather fire at someone who isn't firing at me so I follow the lemmings at a distance and whittle down the enemies when they aren't looking at me. You don't usually need teamwork per se - just don't be first and find the aggressive players to follow.

[Gojuadorai]

Love Koenigsberg and I can tell I'm going to love Nurnberg.

 

i thought the same and after a while i was disapointed...

[Trigger_Happy_Dad]

Who said that Nürnberg is a joke ... ?

 

 

You haven't played Aoba / Cleveland, you have no idea....

 

Also, Nürnberg "sits" too high in the water:

 

Nürnberg:

 

4ss in the air like she doesn't care:

 

...

 

 

[Trigger_Happy_Dad]

And weak HE for german ships is utter .......!

 

Russian 130mm and japanese 140mm HE is stronger than german 150mm HE = I have no words for this.

[Rabid_Turnip]

Here's the game I just had on her - she can, on occasion, be awesome:

 

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

Also, Nürnberg "sits" too high in the water:

 

 

Interestingly, my experience in facing the Admiral Hipper after she got lowered to a more proper level, is that she is now rather hard to citadel compared to other cruisers. Not Cleveland hard, but more like St. Louis hard. Nürnberg getting lowered would quite possibly make her a powerhouse.

[Gojuadorai]

 

Interestingly, my experience in facing the Admiral Hipper after she got lowered to a more proper level, is that she is now rather hard to citadel compared to other cruisers. Not Cleveland hard, but more like St. Louis hard. Nürnberg getting lowered would quite possibly make her a powerhouse.

 

 did that last after they fixed the water penetration issue that made it impossible to citadel below water line?

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

 did that last after they fixed the water penetration issue that made it impossible to citadel below water line?

 

Obviously not to the same degree. Before the fix she was, much like most other cruisers, incredibly hard to citadel, arguably equal to Cleveland. Now she is just harder to citadel. She will certainly still lose a fight with a battleship if she can't pull off a massive torpedo strike or get behind some islands. But she is much less likely to be outright deleted by the first salvo. In fact, when I see Hippers in battle, they are more commonly among the last survivors that I find other cruisers to be.

 

So I would say that she remains reasonably tough, but she certainly isn't a slugger. She has come a long way from her fragile position in the past.

[ApesTogetherStronK]

Bear in mind I posted this before any fixes were made to the Nuernburg. It is no longer a joke but a rather reasonable vessel, as long as you don't get citadeled by BB's at least. 

[Rabid_Turnip]

Bear in mind I posted this before any fixes were made to the Nuernburg. It is no longer a joke but a rather reasonable vessel, as long as you don't get citadeled by BB's at least.

 

Yeah; I'd say she's now a reasonable example of the 'glass cannon' design ethos, capable of being frustratingly fragile for her captain but also capable of being seriously damaging to the enemy team if the match you're in allows you to play her to her strengths. The one thing I would say is, get Advanced Firing Training. Really. That extra 3.3 Km main battery range is a huge, huge boost to this ship's playability (likewise the K-berg).

[Gojuadorai]

That extra 3.3 Km main battery range is a huge, huge boost to this ship's playability

 

i have a diffrent opinion on that one.

the gun charchteristics of the small cal guns change hugely at those extreme ranges you have a horrible arc and nearly no penetration left.

i guess you could argue  thats it is personal preference but i would recomend last stand instead. 

it doesnt screw your amazing guns and lets you play her strengths more often

[Nyaine]

You can definitely penetrate at that range if you hit the deck. With that kind of arch it is almost always plunging fire. I'll give you that those shots are way more difficult to hit.

[bug]

its good, just not against same and higher tier bb. had 100 hits on new mexico in ranked, no penetration. It was side and front and angled, close and far. 1/3 of those was he, no fire, no damage that matter.  121 hits on 4 diff boats, no pens. Do not use this in ranked, or if you do, focus on cruisers and destroyers, not battleships.

[mtm78]

 

First of all, there was no damage buff to Des Moines shells, but buff to penetration angles of AP shells.

 

Second of all my Hindenburg was citadeling other cruisers easly, even at longer distances and was doing even 6-12k AP damage per salvo to battleships. So im not sure what "bad damage" are you talking about. Every tier 5-10 german cruiser(beside maybe Yorck) deals very nice AP damage, especially tier 8-10 have amazing guns(accuracy, shell travel time, trajectory) that hit like a truck with AP ammo.

 

Also German cannons werent nerfed, they actually buffed the AP shell damage considerably when the tree was released. Hindenburg AP shell damage from 5000 to 5900 for example.

 

You also speak like there is some massive firepower diference between Des Moine and Hindenburg, lets see.

 

Des Moines has 9 guns with 10rpm, thats 90 shells per minute total.

Hindenburg has 12 guns with 6rpm, thats 72 shells per minute total.

Des Moines has higher HE damage per shell while Hindenburg has higher AP damage.

 

As the diference is definatelly noticable its not that huge as well. Especially if you consider other gun aspects. The diference between accuracy, shell travel time and arc is very big. Those are very important things. Its very easy to avoid/dodge Des Mones shells at longer distances, while its much harder to avoid fast Hindenburg shells.Its hard to use your DPS adventage in Des moines at longer ranges where its much harder to hit reliably. 

So if you were "burn down" by a Des Moines while playing Hindenburg, its a L2P issue, sorry.

 

Some latest stats (WinRate/Avg EXP/Avg DMG):

 

Zao

48.52%

1594

59971

 

Hindenburg

49.80%

1518

57067

 

Des Moines

44.12%

1291

46739

 

Hindenburg is performing marginally worse than Zao, while Des Moines is still the worst performing T10 ship, with one of the lowest win rates in game.

Roon is performing better than Baltimore, similiar to Ibuki.

Hipper is performing similiar to New Orleans, both are outclassed by Mogami.

tier 5-7 Gearma cruiser also perform similiar to US/IJN counterparts., even Yorck with its crappy guns performs similiar to Pensacola.

 

You personally haveing problems with playing german cruisers, doesnt mean they are crap in compare to other nations cruisers.

 

The fact that most higher tier cruisers are generally an underdogs in a battleship heavy meta, is another issue. Well, at least that was the case befoer 5.1 patch.

 

 

 

This deserves a quote, just to rub it in the faces off everyone crying about 'GE UP' and 'WG hates GE, look at tonks!#@#@'. 

 

Stop crying, if you're doing bad in them it's not because of the ships. It's also funny that such a post is ignored, yet if someone posts something negative, there is always someone ready to jump on the bandwagon. 

[Gojuadorai]

 

This deserves a quote, just to rub it in the faces off everyone crying about 'GE UP' and 'WG hates GE, look at tonks!#@#@'. 

 

Stop crying, if you're doing bad in them it's not because of the ships. It's also funny that such a post is ignored, yet if someone posts something negative, there is always someone ready to jump on the bandwagon. 

 

 

this deserves a quote, just to rub it in the face of ignorant people that its bullsh** to reduce a whole line to 1 ship  

there are 3  good ships and moste of those still have issues that ruin your fun quite often.

understand that not all people who critizice the line for its ovious flaws (like the karlsruhe or some overdone weaknesses) are dum /bad players/dont know what they talking about....

[mtm78]

 

 

this deserves a quote, just to rub it in the face of ignorant people that its bullsh** to reduce a whole line to 1 ship  

there are 3  good ships and moste of those still have issues that ruin your fun quite often.

understand that not all people who critizice the line for its ovious flaws (like the karlsruhe or some overdone weaknesses) are dum /bad players/dont know what they talking about....

 

Numbers talk louder then opinions right? My opinion isn't worth more than yours, but the numbers are worth more than both our opinions. Let's see how they keep performing, and take into account how long it took for Furutaka to get a buff even while it was underperforming for quite some time. And it wasn't one ship we're talking about, maybe you didn't read the quote through?

 

There are turds in every line, there is no WG conspiracy against Germany. That's all there is to it

 

edit: forgot the 'no' 

[Gojuadorai]

There are turds in every line, .....

 

and there shouldnt be any in every line!

it is perfectly normal that there a good and not so good ships, as long as they are somewhat fun to play thats perfectly fine.

what is not fine is ships that are so bad  (or  extremely unfun because of other resons) that you just dont want to go on playing them 

as i understand it its some what  of WG's policy to sell doublones but if so thats bad design cause you ultimatly drive  people away from the game instead of attracting them.

as you can see with other free to play game people pay most money for the games they love not because it is unbearable without (LOL, HS, Dota2, CSGO).

 

so maybe you didnt get the point its not only about some winrate but about how enjoyable the ships are.

winrate is just a balance metric and does not relate to fun  ecept in the case of overpowered ships (everbody enjoys overpowered stuff)

 

[mtm78]

And yet, win rate is tangible, you can't measure fun And perhaps you're right, perhaps it's a 'feature' to make you spend some money to skip a turd, or elite it and skip a stock configuration. If that pisses you off, keep playing your other ships until you get enough free xp to do the same ( I mean FREE xp, not the kind you still need to convert ). Yes will take you a long time, but it's possible, without paying money, to skip ships/configurations. If you're not up to that task, and just want to complain there is a turd in a line, be my guest, but know you're one a dozen and you won't be changing anything. 

 

 

[Gojuadorai]

you kinda missed my main point

 

its not only about turd (the bad ships) people are complaining about some gneral matters that ruin fun 

ofc you cant measure fun but is that a reason to ignore it? 

 

i give you an example:

im a dev and i implement a ship which is really OP terms of winrate lets say it has 65% which is huge!

but cause i made it so strong i have given it a weakness which is it detonates A LOT.

people wont like the ship maybe even say its bad because the experiance of detonating like every game is just a frustrating experiance.

are their complaints unjustified?

i think not!

theres more than the winrate balance imho you should balance ships around their feel so they feel fun as much or more as about their winrate.

(a nerf+buff in the described case will lead to more satisfaction even thoug powerlvl is nerfed)

 

 

[mtm78]

I agree fully and I understand, but you're still not offering tangible things to change. I like giving and reading people's opinion, sometimes opinion is also valuable feedback, feedback which can be used to make the game better. 

 

Again, there is no WG conspiracy against GE assets in this game or any of their games. I did even better with my German tanks then the Russian noobwagons, and the numbers show here in WoWs that Germany is certainly not underperforming.

 

So yes, all complains about 'weak' 'up' 'useless' are unjustified. 

 

Now, if you want to talk about fun, you need to get into specifics.

 

And in the end, it will still be balanced on win rate ( and having a 'unique' or 'own' style to bring diversity to the gameplay ). Simply because what you might find fun, I might not. And the other way around. The only way 'not having fun' would ever lead to something, is when you write out exactly why it's not fun with specific examples. Maybe people will look at them and agree, maybe they wouldn't, but then it would at least be a debate about actual content instead of all the complains without foundation. 

[Gojuadorai]

glad were on the same page.

 

Most of the people cant translate their experiance into game mechanics so the general disatification is expressed in the forums but the reason is not.

That doesnt give you the right to say they are just biased and the winrates show they are supposed to enjoy what they complain about.

instead you should look out for the reasons why they say that.

 

i'll give you my view where a lot of complaints originate from. (i dont have the time nor the energy to post a full analysis knowing itwont be read by anyone who has anything to say)

- really weak HE (paired with the need to shoot HE in certain situations)

- weak rudder engine (paired with  bad manuverability)

- extremely weak citadels (paired with  bad manuverability)

 

ofc  ships need draw backs!

the thing about the drawbacks people complain that much about is that the combinations of their drawbacks are often verry frustrating.

 

 

[ReinhardVonUhlig]

Konigsberg gameplay revolves around not being hit  (i assume Nurnberg is the same).....

 

 

 

hit anywhere center mass = engine knocked out - sitting duck

 

Its kinda crazy ...gives me the bad WoT deja vu when it comes to German fantasy tank weakspot,  the notorious transmission fire.

 

Either increase the agility of this ship, or decrease the rate of this engine damage nonsense.  The ship  is a real glass cannon, its AP murders cruisers, and rof + turret rotation speed kills destroyers...but its marginally good in a real fight.....and that comes out in a really ugly way when you have a bad team and end up exposed to enemy fire.

 

There is also the issue of small maps and getting shot right from the spawn start.......

 

 

 

 

[Nefczi]

German line isnt really bad in compare to other lines, despite their obvious flaws, like weak modules or horrible HE. Many of them compensate with excellent wepons with fast shells, low arcs or high RPM, and strong AP, dealing nice damage even to BBs. We can trade lists of good/bad sides of the ships, but stats dont lie.

 

There is excellent Hindenburg, which is performing almost as good as Zao. There is Roon which currently seems to be the best performing tier 9 cruiser. The Hipper is performing well, better than NO, but worse than Mogami. Nurnberg, despite many complains, actually performs on par with Clevelend/Aoba. And there is strong Konigsberg which is doing almost as good as excellent Omaha. There are of course bad apples like Yorck or Karlsruhe, but each line has some crappy ships, either if its intentional or sloppy/slow balancing. 

 

The problem is, that cruisers overally arent in the best place currently in a BB heavy meta. at least if it comes to higher tiers. But thats a diferent matter.

[ReinhardVonUhlig]

German line isnt really bad in compare to other lines, despite their obvious flaws, like weak modules or horrible HE. Many of them compensate with excellent wepons with fast shells, low arcs or high RPM, and strong AP, dealing nice damage even to BBs. We can trade lists of good/bad sides of the ships, but stats dont lie.

 

There is excellent Hindenburg, which is performing almost as good as Zao. There is Roon which currently seems to be the best performing tier 9 cruiser. The Hipper is performing well, better than NO, but worse than Mogami. Nurnberg, despite many complains, actually performs on par with Clevelend/Aoba. And there is strong Konigsberg which is doing almost as good as excellent Omaha. There are of course bad apples like Yorck or Karlsruhe, but each line has some crappy ships, either if its intentional or sloppy/slow balancing. 

 

The problem is, that cruisers overally arent in the best place currently in a BB heavy meta. at least if it comes to higher tiers. But thats a diferent matter.

 

Weak modules is an understatement, but hey, its a pro "hammer and sickle" game, we all know that........ ..its seems the game code dislikes my 54 percent winrate and decided today i will loose, or get blown up by the first hit my Konigsberg gets no matter what ...with full hp.

 

And the teams, oh the horror, such one sided massacres.....