Nuernburg is a joke. Heck everything in the German tree suffers. Everything.

[mtm78]

I will second Dropsiq's comment about Vigilance being useless. I have it on all of my CA and two days ago I was torpedoed in bloody Pensacola by a Kamikaze. Torpedoes were detected off my starboard bow, incoming at 90°. I immediately turned towards them and even slowed to 3/4 to turn sharper - only to eat both of them. I am not sure if this guy had Torpedo Acceleration on and a high level captain, but there was nothing I could have done. Much like there isn't much you can do when you encounter Shima's torps at a bad angle. GG and off to port.

 

The only situation where I see Vigilance being useful is to buy you the human reaction time after you spot the torpedoes from the direction you were expecting them from. Much like I did in my NO video where I charged head on first Mogami then Atago and successfully evaded all their torpedo salvos.

 

If you wish to use it, I think it is much better off with an acquisition module for a combined bonus of 50% to torpedo spotting range. Something I'd use on a BB for instance.

 

TA on Kamikaze means he can't stealth torp, so I guess he either didn't have it or you deserve to eat those torps if he did as there was a spotted DD a few KM from your ship

[Unintentional_submarine]

Well, I played Yorck before the buffs. And I hated it. Not because it was particularly weak, but because it lost the "german flavour" I get used to on Konigsberg and Nurnberg - AP ammo with great ballistics. So, when I first fired my AP Sputnik on Earth orbit I said "what the..." and sold it after the game. And when I got my Hipper, I was home again. 

But, from what I saw on Crysantos stream, Yorck got some buffs and now performs on par with it counterparts, although still seems to be the weakest of those three (Atlanta obviously doesn't count).

 

Arguably Yorck remains the hardest to play cruiser at the tier (again Atlanta excluded). But hard to play doesn't always mean weak, and Yorck is a great example of this. She is very quirky and you need to learn all the quirks, and until you do she will feel like a struggleboat (even with her buffs). But once the quirks are filed properly, I feel she is is the strongest cruiser of T7 (or maybe I should say she has the highest potential at that point). But she will never become a popular ship exactly because she is so different from the previous ships, and so different even from other heavy cruisers (like Myoko or Pensacola). She is quite unique, and that isn't always a benefit.

It should be noted it took me quite a while to figure her out, but once I did 80-90k battles were more common than 50k for me, which was pretty different from other cruisers (they tend to have a much less of a 'step' in both upgrades but also when you personally figure it out).

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Well, I still think Myoko is the best CA on tier VII hands down. The combination of amazing HE, 10 guns, great speed and dangerous torpedoes, topped with very good shell ballistics - it's a win for me. I played it recently, and elited and finished it very very fast. I think I freexped first hull, so the grind was unusually fast for me. Then I reached Mogami, and all fun was dead for me. 155mm guns were totally not my thing (even before AFT nerf), and 203 mm guns suffered badly from range. Honestly, I feel sorry now for everybody that will have to play Mogami in it's current state. I'm only pissed that ARP Myoko is in this nightmarish pink camo with this kawaii loli captain for basement dwellers voice (sorry sorry, nothing against anime to be honest). Myoko of course had it's issues, but the pros outweighted the cons far far more, then it did in Yorck for me. Although, I admit, I played what, 4 games in Yorck? It just didn't had this "thing" that makes me play even "bad" ship.

[ApesTogetherStronK]

Wow, never expected this thread to get so big, the original point is kind of irrelevant now that we're several patches on from what the Nuernberg was, though it still suffers like all German Cruisers with cits through the bow and stern. 

 

Anywho, good job on keeping things civil. Discuss away boys and girls. 

[T_H_0_R]

 

TA on Kamikaze means he can't stealth torp, so I guess he either didn't have it or you deserve to eat those torps if he did as there was a spotted DD a few KM from your ship

 

I wasn't alone. There was Nurnberg right next to me, with me stupidly assuming he would use his superior Hydro. No, he just rushed in after I got sunk and got himself deleted by a BB.

 

We were pushing on the flank and won the game in the end, so even if he had a 5.4 concealment and 5.6 km torpedoes if launched ahead of my path he could have launched them undetected. And its not that I wasn't maneuvering and changing course often... It was a lucky spread. 4 previous salvos I was sable to dodge easily by randomizing course and speed.

[Crysantos]

Well, I still think Myoko is the best CA on tier VII hands down. The combination of amazing HE, 10 guns, great speed and dangerous torpedoes, topped with very good shell ballistics - it's a win for me. I played it recently, and elited and finished it very very fast. I think I freexped first hull, so the grind was unusually fast for me. Then I reached Mogami, and all fun was dead for me. 155mm guns were totally not my thing (even before AFT nerf), and 203 mm guns suffered badly from range. Honestly, I feel sorry now for everybody that will have to play Mogami in it's current state. I'm only pissed that ARP Myoko is in this nightmarish pink camo with this kawaii loli captain for basement dwellers voice (sorry sorry, nothing against anime to be honest). Myoko of course had it's issues, but the pros outweighted the cons far far more, then it did in Yorck for me. Although, I admit, I played what, 4 games in Yorck? It just didn't had this "thing" that makes me play even "bad" ship.

 

I couldn't agree more, the guns are just so awesome!

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

 I couldn't agree more, the guns are just so awesome! 

And now I don't know if you're talking about Myoko or Yorck guns

 

[Crysantos]

And now I don't know if you're talking about Myoko or Yorck guns

 

 

You should know my love for the ARP Myoko by now

[thedrink]

 

Arguably Yorck remains the hardest to play cruiser at the tier (again Atlanta excluded). But hard to play doesn't always mean weak, and Yorck is a great example of this.  

Totally agree with you. For what I've seen so far (unlocked it 3 days ago)it's a solid, hard as hell to play, ship. 

You can't go aggressive as the myoko, you need to think what you're going to do next and you can't show your broadside to a BB (as ijn cruisers but hey at least they have some steel plates between the citadel and the ocean). It's a good second line ship with nice ap, decent aa and the German anti dd/smoke/torps hydroacoustic like the nurberg.

you can get 6k salvos against broadside BB and 5.5k with a single citadel. 

Hard yes, but not weak

[Micromagos]

Totally agree with you. For what I've seen so far (unlocked it 3 days ago)it's a solid, hard as hell to play, ship. 

You can't go aggressive as the myoko, you need to think what you're going to do next and you can't show your broadside to a BB (as ijn cruisers but hey at least they have some steel plates between the citadel and the ocean). It's a good second line ship with nice ap, decent aa and the German anti dd/smoke/torps hydroacoustic like the nurberg.

you can get 6k salvos against broadside BB and 5.5k with a single citadel. 

Hard yes, but not weak

 

Heh, I remember back when it had the 54 second turret turn time now back then it was outright weak, but yea since the buff to a decent rotation time its not that bad of a ship.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

You should know my love for the ARP Myoko by now  

I saw you playing it few times, true. Unfortunately, I watch your stream without sound as I usually watch them during my break in work, so if you make some comments about her I can't hear it :< But, yeah, Myoko is amazing. I was instantly in love with her, and I will surely buy her back at some time, as I do with my love - hate ship NO (again it's in my port for some reason). Now, no such feeling was ever present in case of Yorck. And Nurnberg, not being particularly good ship, was at least enjoyable, and was fun to play.  

 

[Crysantos]

I saw you playing it few times, true. Unfortunately, I watch your stream without sound as I usually watch them during my break in work, so if you make some comments about her I can't hear it :< But, yeah, Myoko is amazing. I was instantly in love with her, and I will surely buy her back at some time, as I do with my love - hate ship NO (again it's in my port for some reason). Now, no such feeling was ever present in case of Yorck. And Nurnberg, not being particularly good ship, was at least enjoyable, and was fun to play.  

 

 

Well, my main reason to dislike the Yorck is that I can't keep dodging (which you need to do due to the low armor) and shooting, my guns just can't keep up with that. That makes me show more skirt than I want to and I never had the issue with getting absolutely deleted like in the Yorck. I've switched from AP to HE for most of the time unless brawling, had some fun games but in general I dislike it. AP is unreliable on it besides close up fights (where any CA works) - you can't annoy BBs like in other CAs. I was really glad when I got rid of it - the Hipper is such a good ship though, it was worth the grind - because it's everything I want from a KM CA.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Yup. Hipper is golden. It has it's own issues, mainly vs skilled players, but on randoms? Very good and reliable ship. Oh, and I don't know if you have Roon, but it's even better when elited. 

 

ps. I see your Des is rusting in port, that brings much sadness to my life...

[thedrink]

 

Heh, I remember back when it had the 54 second turret turn time now back then it was outright weak, but yea since the buff to a decent rotation time its not that bad of a ship.

54 sec?! My god now I know why everyone used to complain about it ahah 

[Crysantos]

Yup. Hipper is golden. It has it's own issues, mainly vs skilled players, but on randoms? Very good and reliable ship. Oh, and I don't know if you have Roon, but it's even better when elited. 

 

Nah not there yet, but liked the Hipper so much that I considered keeping it. Looking forward to playing the Roon then, I trust your judgement when it comes to CAs

 

ps. I see your Des is rusting in port, that brings much sadness to my life...

 

Pretty annoyed by TX gameplay right now and the Zao just suits my kind of gameplay much better, a bit sad though considering the time spent grinding it... just to leave it rusting for now. Just don't feel like playing it

[VonPletz]

Well, sure, that's a problem when you try to push, But on retreating, which will do 90% of the time in CA it's kinda better. It's like those rear placed turrets on tanks - it got it's advantages and flaws, you need to adjust. 

To tell you the truth I didn't play with AFT on them. BFT and Expert Marksman were a must. Ranga can be useful, but I prefered Demolition Expert on them, as I like swapping HE and AP on GE CA's, so that extra fires were a way to go for me. Now I expect Konigsberg to be less powerfull then it was, but still good. It's main advantages are still there - accuracy, strong AP, hydros and 2 sets of torpedo launchers per side. It's just not as reliable when it fights BB's. BFT, EM and AFT nerf was harsher for Nurnberg, since it meets stronger opponents. I used to fight Myokos and do well in those fights, now I expect it to be kinda butchered by said Myoko. 

I must have missed the part of patch notes saying something about rudder shift changes for Nurnberg? Can you post the exact patch note?

I actually prefer Roon. But, remember that BFT, EM and AFT were also used by other tier IV, V and VI CA's, which were actually hit as hard as ze germans. Murmańsk could actually use AFT with good results, same with Omaha and Marblehead. Kuma and Phoenix also got hitted, not to mention Clevelad (I didn't play it with AFT and not recomended it, but still a lot of peps took it). So, to sum it up. Why the hell did you had to put this GERMAN BIAS nonsense?! What the hell man. There we go, nice and real constructive discussion, objective and balanced, and then you go with this bullshiet german bias comment. For realz. The only russian bias I can currently point out is buff to Kutuzov to compensate for AFT and EM nerf - which, apart from Albany, didn't occur for any other CA.

German CA are as strong as their counterparts, which is not too much, since all CA's are underdogs now. 

 

 

 

You say no bias but the FACTS support my argument.  One only needs to look at the Admiral Hipper.  The Admiral Hipper according to Wargamings own specs from the game puts eight (8) 203mm 20.3 cm SK C/34 on the Admiral Hipper.  Then they only give it a 4.3 fire rate per minute only with Captian upgrades.  That is a LIE....one only need to google the German 20.3cm cannon to find out they are shorting this ship.

 

To quote wikipedia:  The 20.3 cm SK C/34^{[Note 1]} was the main battery gun used on all German World War II heavy cruisers. These built-up guns consisted of a rifled tube encased within an inner and outer jacket with a horizontal sliding breech block. The breech was sealed with an 18 kg (40 lb) brass case containing 30 kg (66 lb) of smokeless powder with a 160 gram (5.6 oz) gunpowder igniter. A cloth bag containing an additional 21 kg (40 lb) of smokeless powder and 380 grams (13 oz) of gunpowder was loaded between the projectile and the brass case. Each gun could fire approximately five rounds per minute. To repeat  FIVE (5) rounds per minute!!!!!!!

 

Admiral Hipper Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20.3_cm_SK_C/34_naval_gun

New Orleans: 8"/55 caliber gun Mark 12 (4 rounds per minute) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8%22/55_caliber_gun

Mogami: 20 cm/50 3rd Year Type (4.5 rounds per minute) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_cm

 

This last patch took down its turret traverse speed (from 2.5 to 3.5), shortened its range (it did have 19.7km), slowed its rudder shift time (from 10.7 (pre patch) to 12)...now so much that it is lowest in its tier of all the other ships not to mention a 740 turn circle versus 660 New Orleans and 720 Mogami.  Physics does not support any of this because the Hipper was the shortest of the ships in length at 203 meter/New Orleans 225 meters/Mogami 220 meters.......(the laws of physics don't support that one bit).......the longer the ship the slow the turn speed and the larger the turn circle...............and you say there is no bias against it.  I call BULLCRAP!

 

Ship Specifications Source:

Admiral Hipper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cruiser_Admiral_Hipper

New Orleans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_New_Orleans_%28LPD-18%29

Mogami: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogami-class_cruiser

 

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Are you aware what "balance" is? And that this is a game right? Not a simulator. Hipper is top tier CA now, only below Atago. Great guns, good RoF, good torpedoes, good armour, great AA. It is balanced with 8 guns, mediocre mobility and camo. No, I don't see any bias here. Right now I have all tier VIII CA's, including Kutuzov and Atago - and Hipper is number 2. So, where's this bias? That it has RoF lowered? And good riddance. It would be so OP, I don't even want to think about it. So, whatever mate. Carry on.

 Nah not there yet, but liked the Hipper so much that I considered keeping it. Looking forward to playing the Roon then, I trust your judgement when it comes to CAs 

Well, with current DD meta, it's that enjoyable, but when you fight CA and BB - it's very effective  

 Pretty annoyed by TX gameplay right now and the Zao just suits my kind of gameplay much better, a bit sad though considering the time spent grinding it... just to leave it rusting for now. Just don't feel like playing it 

I hear you. When I take my Des out and end in a game with 5 DD per side and no CV - I just play very aggressive - either I immediately carry the game, or I die in flames, torpedo strikes, and listening to BB shells all around me  

 

[Crysantos]

Well, with current DD meta, it's that enjoyable, but when you fight CA and BB - it's very effective  

I hear you. When I take my Des out and end in a game with 5 DD per side and no CV - I just play very aggressive - either I immediately carry the game, or I die in flames, torpedo strikes, and listening to BB shells all around me  

 

 

Ah well, sometimes I get great games, sometimes mediocre ones - but it's almost always a good time in that ship and that's what I like. Indeed, TX is kinda crazy right now - gotta pray to RNGesus more often for these BB shells to miss their target

[BabbaBoon]

Nurnberg is easily the best tier 6 cruiser in the game in my humble opinion. The Clevelands shells hang too long in the air to get accurate long shot hits against good captains and the Aobas turrets are so slow that its hard to get shots off at all if you are having to evade enemy shells. I regard myself as a pretty average player but the guns on the Nurnberg are such a joy to use. Also I love the Yorck, I always fancy my chances one on one against any other cruiser in either ship.

[VonPletz]

Are you aware what "balance" is? And that this is a game right? Not a simulator. Hipper is top tier CA now, only below Atago. Great guns, good RoF, good torpedoes, good armour, great AA. It is balanced with 8 guns, mediocre mobility and camo. No, I don't see any bias here. Right now I have all tier VIII CA's, including Kutuzov and Atago - and Hipper is number 2. So, where's this bias? That it has RoF lowered? And good riddance. It would be so OP, I don't even want to think about it. So, whatever mate. Carry on.

Well, with current DD meta, it's that enjoyable, but when you fight CA and BB - it's very effective  

I hear you. When I take my Des out and end in a game with 5 DD per side and no CV - I just play very aggressive - either I immediately carry the game, or I die in flames, torpedo strikes, and listening to BB shells all around me  

 

 

Just as you stated....are you aware that Wargaming claims to be historically accurate with their ships which is totally false.  If you are going to make the claim that make the ships as they should be historically. Until then...you have no argument.   When you look at Wargaming specifications tier for tier they have made none of the German Ships top for its tiers.  So, there is NO WAY any of these ships can even come close to being OP as you claim. 

 

Increasing the Admiral Hipper's ROF to historic specification will only give it a fighting chance because everything ( I MEAN EVERYTHING) about this ship is inferior to the other ships in it same tier.  Armor, Turret Turn rate, Rudder Shift, Turn Circle, ROF, even range of guns don't match their piers.  So, my complaint about bringing the RoF to historic standards will definitely NOT make the Admiral Hipper OP, period!

 

You claim about statistics is also bogus because the number of games played skews the data....If I play 10 game and have 6 wins (60%) IS NOT the same as 1000 games with 450 (45%) wins.  Until there are sufficient numbers of games played please stop falling back on your tired argument of ship win stats because the data is not correlated enough to provide accuracy.

 

P.S.  You own stats says you played German ship 9% of the time....I think that speaks volumes...Don't you?

 

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Just stop. Nothing is inferior. Armour is superb, guns accuracy, dispersion, travel time and range is superb, AA is great, AP damage and penetration is superb, turrets are normal. So just stop it already. The same stuff with numbers you claimed three months ago. Data didn't change, or even better, it changed in GE favour mostly. Roon is superior to every other tier IX CA. And yes, I played only 9% with GE cruisers, which transfers toooooo... more then 220 games. And that's random games. Hipper was also my ship of choice for Team Battles, which adds another 37 games to that number. And well, after 100 games in Hipper - yes, it is extremely good vessel, one that punishes every mistake with german precision "pun intended", a tough one that can take some serious beating, with very good AA, and great sniper capabilities nicely suplemented with close range torpedoes. My winrate in it is 62% with 59k average damage, which is much better then my New Orleans statistics, despite me being "specialised" in US CA. So cut the crap already mate. Start being objective. And yes, WG states that they are "trying" to be as historically accurate as possible, but they also always said, that historical accuracy is a slave to balance. And so, balance it is. If anything, you are a classic wehraboo, and you just refuse to acknowledge it. Also, a classic wehrabooic "german superior steel" imported by UK argument was used by you also - and you dare to call WG biased mate?

 

 

[mtm78]

Just stop. Nothing is inferior. Armour is superb, guns accuracy, dispersion, travel time and range is superb, AA is great, AP damage and penetration is superb, turrets are normal. So just stop it already. The same stuff with numbers you claimed three months ago. Data didn't change, or even better, it changed in GE favour mostly. Roon is superior to every other tier IX CA. And yes, I played only 9% with GE cruisers, which transfers toooooo... more then 220 games. And that's random games. Hipper was also my ship of choice for Team Battles, which adds another 37 games to that number. And well, after 100 games in Hipper - yes, it is extremely good vessel, one that punishes every mistake with german precision "pun intended", a tough one that can take some serious beating, with very good AA, and great sniper capabilities nicely suplemented with close range torpedoes. My winrate in it is 62% with 59k average damage, which is much better then my New Orleans statistics, despite me being "specialised" in US CA. So cut the crap already mate. Start being objective. And yes, WG states that they are "trying" to be as historically accurate as possible, but they also always said, that historical accuracy is a slave to balance. And so, balance it is. If anything, you are a classic wehraboo, and you just refuse to acknowledge it. Also, a classic wehrabooic "german superior steel" imported by UK argument was used by you also - and you dare to call WG biased mate?

 

Well, WG seriously is lacking in something.. they don't give me enough likes!

 

[Gojuadorai]

imho the real intresting thing about german cas will be how they play out in comparison to the russian ships which have:

-similar range

-similar "paperness"

-similar accuracy

but

-a diffrent he to ap profile

 

[VonPletz]

Just stop. Nothing is inferior. Armour is superb, guns accuracy, dispersion, travel time and range is superb, AA is great, AP damage and penetration is superb, turrets are normal. So just stop it already. The same stuff with numbers you claimed three months ago. Data didn't change, or even better, it changed in GE favour mostly. Roon is superior to every other tier IX CA. And yes, I played only 9% with GE cruisers, which transfers toooooo... more then 220 games. And that's random games. Hipper was also my ship of choice for Team Battles, which adds another 37 games to that number. And well, after 100 games in Hipper - yes, it is extremely good vessel, one that punishes every mistake with german precision "pun intended", a tough one that can take some serious beating, with very good AA, and great sniper capabilities nicely suplemented with close range torpedoes. My winrate in it is 62% with 59k average damage, which is much better then my New Orleans statistics, despite me being "specialised" in US CA. So cut the crap already mate. Start being objective. And yes, WG states that they are "trying" to be as historically accurate as possible, but they also always said, that historical accuracy is a slave to balance. And so, balance it is. If anything, you are a classic wehraboo, and you just refuse to acknowledge it. Also, a classic wehrabooic "german superior steel" imported by UK argument was used by you also - and you dare to call WG biased mate?

 

 

 

Since you play German Ships less than 10% of the time.  I think that speaks volumes.  You don't know because you don't play them.  Its that simple. So if anyone should stop its YOU!   The stats you tout about German ships is skewed because you DON'T play them. Therefore, whatever you say about them means little because your own stats prove you prefer playing other nations ships over the them.

 

Really...you said...... "Armour is superb"...... on a German Cruiser....really...?!?!? 

(I laughed when I saw that in your post)

 

SO lets see who would I believe more....someone who touts German ships are great and plays them less than 10% of the time  pushing these sub pars ships knowing it means better XP for them because they play other ships in the game OR someone that plays German ships over 80% of the time and has real knowledge of these ships with legitimate complains about their performance and how each game patch has continually screwed over these ships and made them worse.....hmmmm  I think the answer is pretty obvious.

 

As to your comments about the Roon.....A Baltimore has more powerful guns that will Citadel a Roon from the front....I have never been able to penetrate a Baltimore from the front because its armor is just too thick.  Also, I will agree that the dispersion on the German Cruisers are nice....Tirpitz, on the other hand, is horrid. But it means nothing if all the shells just bounce harmlessly off the armor of the enemy ships and you are forced to use the completely horrid HE shells they give the Germans. (not to mention that the chance of fire from a German HE shells is the WORST on all tiers)

 

They give German Cruisers horrid rudder shift and larger turn circles compared to their tiers when the German Cruisers are shorter....this goes against the laws of physics! 

 

As to your comments about the Admiral Hipper, yes I now prefer it over the Nuernburg (post patch) because it is probably one of the better ships in the entire German line.  Hindenburg is my other choice but the costs of maintenance make it prohibitive to play too much especially, if you get a streak of failed team games. 

 

The most saddening part about the German Cruisers is one's ability to make a difference on an individual level changing the dynamics of a game versus its piers.  One can not simply strike out on their own with German Cruisers (too much) because it is relegated to being more of a support ship versus as brawler. I like to be aggressive and do so often when I have the chance but it is rare in these ships.  German Cruisers (on average) must travel with the group versus striking out its own because it can't dodge shells as good as its piers and the poor armor makes it easy XP for enemy players. So they require meat shield that will be the target of enemy ships versus them. Sure, everyone like that situation regardless of ship but the German Cruisers really require that to be the case because Wargaming has given them such poor armor.

 

As to AA....they are for the most part average with the exception of the Hindenburg....the Hindenburg can be an AA machine if there are a lot of planes. But against a Zao....I prefer the Zao.  Since patch 0.5.0  turned the DesMoines into a mortar ship the Hindenburg is better than DesMoines but don't get too close or a DesMoines can (and will) burn a Hindenburg to the ground quickly.  Yes, the Hindenburg does have the largest number of HP of its piers but it really means little because the POOR ARMOR they give this German HEAVY Cruiser!! You get a citadel hit and all your HP advantage evaporates.  It also still looks like it is floating above the water and when it turns you can see the bottom rudder of the boat.....that's not physically possible in real world either...they need to lower it in the water more which would lower its citadel problem.

 

[mtm78]

Now, where are those down vote options..