High tier IJN destroyer gameplay, pure RNG

[fallenmemories]

I'm quit frustrated with the high tier IJN DDs. Lunching torpedo at a Torget and then praying to God he doesnt turn, or dodge your torpedo salvo because they are slow and can be seen 1.8 km away, and give a reaction time of 12 sec, which is more  or equal to BB rudder shift. It's quit infuriating firing torpedo salvo after torpedo salvo and have them all miss. Or getting 2 torpedo hits every 3 matches. I have greater success suicide torping rather than firing from stealth. Your guns are useless, your Torps are useless, you are useless, what's left for you to do? It's pure luck, absolute RNG, roll a dice every torpedo salvo you launch, if this is high tier IJN destroyer gameplay, then I don't know what to say.

[Gudako]

Mostly true. You have to launch them in smart ways into enemy clusters, around corners or from an angle they are not expecting torpedoes from.

[EsaTuunanen]

Mostly true. You have to launch them in smart ways into enemy clusters, around corners or from an angle they are not expecting torpedoes from.

And instead of putting all launcher salvos into one pile it's better to spread them little trying to anticipate evasion maneuver to get some hits instead of missing all.

[Vanhal]

I'm quit frustrated with the high tier IJN DDs. Lunching torpedo at a Torget and then praying to God he doesnt turn, or dodge your torpedo salvo because they are slow and can be seen 1.8 km away, and give a reaction time of 12 sec, which is more  or equal to BB rudder shift. It's quit infuriating firing torpedo salvo after torpedo salvo and have them all miss. Or getting 2 torpedo hits every 3 matches. I have greater success suicide torping rather than firing from stealth. Your guns are useless, your Torps are useless, you are useless, what's left for you to do? It's pure luck, absolute RNG, roll a dice every torpedo salvo you launch, if this is high tier IJN destroyer gameplay, then I don't know what to say.

 

Regardless if you are right, that's not RNG. No dice are rolled, pure human factor is involved.

[acheronmk2]

lol the whole game is rng.

 

you might as well go play raffle simulator, because the outcomes of each game are the same.

[ScratxNeko]

 

Regardless if you are right, that's not RNG. No dice are rolled, pure human factor is involved.

 

In this context, while it is strictly true it's not RNG, it definitely feels like it. Why?

 

Because it's so random. Sometimes people turn, sometimes they don't, sometimes they dodge the right way, sometimes they'll dodge right into all the torpedos...

 

Seriously, there's far more luck than skill involved. Which is why certain DDs past the Minekaze are utter crap, because with crap reload times and relatively few launchers it's incredibly frustrating to make any sort of launch then see your target not even come anywhere close to them... and you're stuck for a long time reloading.

 

Sigh, the Minekaze's 3x2 scheme is ridiculously superior to 2x3 too, just because you can actually control your spread a lot better. Not just the reload time.

 

There's a reason I didn't buy the Hatsuharu yet, though I've got it unlocked... I feel it's likely to be more of the crapsandwich I already got a mouthful of and I don't really feel it's worth the trouble. Fubuki looks like it might be nice, but... worth dealing with Hatsuharu?.....

[VonVolks]

Your guns aren't useless and the long range torpedo allows you to fire into areas you think ships will go to.

 

As for dodging, yes good ships can dodge. Try and guess how and fire the second Salvo to cover that.

 

However you must accept that torpedoes will miss a lot. More than 5 hit games are pretty rare.... (at high tier)

[Vanhal]

 

Because it's so random. Sometimes people turn, sometimes they don't, sometimes they dodge the right way, sometimes they'll dodge right into all the torpedos...

 

Yes, but it still isn't RNG. The game is not at fault here. And even the luck factor have way less impact than you think.

More importantly, what you would want to do about this?

- If you buff torps RoF it would be the lesser of all evils, but it would be direct huge nerf to BB and lesser to CA, unless the BB (and some of the CA, like Myoko or Yorck) would get their turret traverse buffed, and the WG won't do that becaue they would not try to "balance" some ships with it (which is totally stupid, like the top three dumbest restriction in game, they overdid it every time).

- If you buff the range of the torps... We had it in alpha - like 13 km for tier 5 US DD, and everything above had even more. It resulted in hordes of destroyers flooding the map with torps. Nobody push. Boring as hell campfests. Ships dying at random from the fire and forget salvoes.

- If you buff the torp speed or lessen the detection range of torps or DD's.  Some of this also was in alpha already. Two words - death rays. Often it felt like that. It would require one of the two trades (or both) - massive reduction of damage or implementing of RNG mechanics like dud torps (not unlikely to current gun mechanics). Btw. that's the same reason BB players constantly complain about RNG and WG says it's ok.

 

Personally i would drastically reduce the turret traverse of japanese destroyers. It would not make them OP, but it would give them at least some alternative to torps, and as such lessen the "one trick" syndrome they are suffering right now. but, then again, i would reduce the turret traverse of all ships, because somehow this one thing was totally omitted in overall "speed up" tendence in this game (like 150 kn speed or stupid ship scale or false range).

[LilJumpa]

I'm quit frustrated with the high tier IJN DDs. Lunching torpedo at a Torget and then praying to God he doesnt turn, or dodge your torpedo salvo because they are slow and can be seen 1.8 km away, and give a reaction time of 12 sec, which is more  or equal to BB rudder shift. It's quit infuriating firing torpedo salvo after torpedo salvo and have them all miss. Or getting 2 torpedo hits every 3 matches. I have greater success suicide torping rather than firing from stealth. Your guns are useless, your Torps are useless, you are useless, what's left for you to do? It's pure luck, absolute RNG, roll a dice every torpedo salvo you launch, if this is high tier IJN destroyer gameplay, then I don't know what to say.

 

Since you see Tier 6+7 as "high" Tier I can actually answer, because I have both ships atm.

 

I don't agree with most of your points and I think you just have to get a different mindset. The days of killing a BB with 1 or 2 salvos are over once you enter Tier 6+. If you want that, then stay with the Minekaze or the Isokaze.

 

For me personally, playing both the Mutsuki and the Hatsu are the most challenging games because you have to be aware of the whole game situation at all times and I only play them if I can fully concentrate on the game.

Dealing damage is not the first priority for me but influencing the game. To achieve that I have to find the sweet spot between playing aggressive, be a threat to the enemy at all times and surviving the first 10 mins of a match.

A DD in the late game is very powerfull and dangerous especially if the enemy team has none left.As I said, if you are in it for damage numbers, then you are very team dependant and those DDs are very situational.

 

Important from my point of view to play them successfully in terms of influencing the game:

 

- know the numbers/ spotting mechanics

Both Hatsu and Mutsuki have pretty good concealment ratings which can be dropped to 6.1/6.5 without having a great (15+ skill) captain. You have to know what happens to that concealment when you fire AA or your main guns, when planes are near, when smoke is used by you or the enemy......... and so on

(btw Hatsus guns can actually wreck a DD or a cruiser pretty good and fast)

Just game mechanics.

 

- situational awareness

Look at the team composition at the start of each match and act accordingly. Don't do the same thing every match/map because having a 2 CV game plays totally different to a 0 CV game (for example).

Be aware of the minimap and the flow of the game at all times, don't focus on a single enemy for the whole game, but be a constant threat by constantly changing positions.

Capping! Never underestimate capping!

 

 

Yes, in a DD you can have absolute crap games when chased by a competent CV player or you made wrong predictions and went to the wrong spot at the beginning but the games where you manage to totally annoy the enemy team are so much fun.

 

 

 

 

[mrak1979]

I have same experience. I playing Fubuki right now and score torpedo hit is random mostly. Because good player always counting with torps and chnging direction, poor player have enought time to evade meven bad player arent going always straight line and i cant predict where he will going and when are destroyers around you cant close the distance. Only way is ambush and there are USN destoyers better.

[fallenmemories]

It's hard to score torpedo hits at high tier is because people are consistent evading shots, angling their armor, varying their speed, etc. this makes it both hard and infuriating. All I wish for is some consistency in my games where I don't play one good game for 3 bad games. I think the problem with the tier 6&7 IJN DDs is that they don't have enough torpedoes to stealth torp successfully. I think that wargaming should have foucused on the number of Torps per salvo when designing the IJN DD tree, but they didn't.

[Mayv]

Mutsuki and Hatsuharu are the low points in the IJN DD in my opinion. The 2 triple launchers don't cut it especially when your torpedoes are spotted much further out. 

 

Consistency can be hard to come by though with DDs. My advice would be don't get sunk early game. DDs become more powerful as the game goes on. The Fubuki is a much better ship in my opinion and she has earned a permanent place in my port. If you are close to the Fubuki at least get her before giving up the IJN DD line.

[Admiral_noodle]

The problem is that high tier dds are actually really good for winning the game. Area denial. Disrupting enemy formations etc. They are very powerful.

 

But --> direct XP for doing damage is effectively nerfed. I can see why they aren't attractive to play.

 

In the new game mode with a big cap where you score for having ships in the cap only I can see them being very very good. Ships will have to come to areas in this new mode or lose.

 

I think area denial is such a part of the higher tier games we need more "area capture/defence" modes. Even then dds need to somehow be rewarded. I hope XP is gained for being in these new caps. Trouble is XP for "forcing the enemy to go away" avoiding your torps is really hard.

 

Just my 2p

[Nagine]

I agree on Fubuki - it is indeed the pinnacle of IJN DD line (not the famous Minekaze). Good camo, good guns, good torps and relatively many of them. Those 3 launchers really help to avoid RNG nature of torps. The only disadvantages are the crawling speed (which really shows itself is someone decides to hunt you) and high repair costs.

 

However, I keep defending Mutsuki. It has no guns, but everything else is perfect. So just put AA configuration and you will be able to get really fun games.

[Vanhal]

The problem is that high tier dds are actually really good for winning the game. Area denial. Disrupting enemy formations etc. They are very powerful.

 

But --> direct XP for doing damage is effectively nerfed. I can see why they aren't attractive to play.

 

In the new game mode with a big cap where you score for having ships in the cap only I can see them being very very good. Ships will have to come to areas in this new mode or lose.

 

I think area denial is such a part of the higher tier games we need more "area capture/defence" modes. Even then dds need to somehow be rewarded. I hope XP is gained for being in these new caps. Trouble is XP for "forcing the enemy to go away" avoiding your torps is really hard.

 

Just my 2p

 

You are absolutely right. DD don't need buff (except guns for IJN), they need to be rewarded for other things beside DMG. But that's problem recurring since alpha. Reward-for-damage only is a issue that have been discussed countless times and it would help to resolve some problems without changing much of the game balance, but WG apparently don't want that.

[Mary_Poppins]

The destroyers are correctly labelled, destroyers/cannon fodder, an easy kill if you want it, 

however if you would like to play this category of warship, don't waste your time or effort, the biggest pile of crap in any game I have seen from the VIC20 and Spectron64 to present day. its all about luck, if you live long enough and fire enough torps, you may be lucky enough to hit something other than fresh air and islands but its a best guess strategy nothing more,

the damage module is a joke, take a hit in the bow section and you lose engines, steering and maybe the aft gun, 

be assured WG the only things installed in the bow of a ship are as follows: - Anchor pockets, Chain locker, Emergency harbour set generator, Emergency fire pumps, Survival equipment, Rope locker, Bow thruster compartment, sea water inlets/discharge for the emergency equipment , daily oil fuel tanks, and in some instances concrete, after thirty years building and repairing shipping i may have an idea of what is installed and where,

 

yet another ill thought out game by WG just like WOWP good game in the beginning and then alterations/interference to the so called balance had to be implemented, from then on in a stuffed game

 

what doesn't WG understand? a terd with a ribbon tied around it, is still a terd 

27 days premium left, then its un-install time, the last WG pile of dung I will bother taking the slightest interest in, they have the business sense of a blacksmiths anvil              

 

     

 

[Admiral_noodle]

 

You are absolutely right. DD don't need buff (except guns for IJN), they need to be rewarded for other things beside DMG. But that's problem recurring since alpha. Reward-for-damage only is a issue that have been discussed countless times and it would help to resolve some problems without changing much of the game balance, but WG apparently don't want that.

 

How is more of a relevant question. Even if they wanted it how would it be done?

[urr027]

 

How is more of a relevant question. Even if they wanted it how would it be done?

 

Less rewards for DMG, more rewards for winning? 

[Vanhal]

 

How is more of a relevant question. Even if they wanted it how would it be done?

 

Hmm, lets think.

 

 

Less rewards for DMG, more rewards for winning? 

 

No. The rewards for damage are ok, especially the rewarding for % of damage instead for flat numbers.

About winning... the difference should be less than it is, not more, at least for the upper 1/2 or 1/3 of the losing team. Like, playing good and doing your best but still losing because MM decided to throw some trolldivision or 5 yolo dd's in your team should not be punished. That comes from my conviction that in this game, victory by itself is not worth much, it is the effort of team that brings victory, and this effort needs to be rewarded, not bare fact of win.

What should be rewarded more: capping, defending cap, spotting (depending on spotted class - less for BB's, more for DD's, and for spotting class - nothing for planes, less for DD's, more for BB's and CV's and so on), shooting down planes (again, depending on class, more for CA, plus bonus for shooting planes if there are nearby BB and CV - defending them). Plus surely some other things that didn't came on my mind now.

[shulzidar]

I'm quit frustrated with the high tier IJN DDs.

 

There are 3 design flaws that manifest themselves strongly with this line of DDs (Also my prefered... "Suffering" the Kagero ATM):

 

- Torpedo DPS progression. Look nice on paper... but speding 2 minutes waiting for doing something is what triggered A LOT of changes in BB gameplay back in CBT... Meanwhile IJN DDs are left there doing nothing but maneuvering most of the time, because your Torps can hit up to 20k damage, they have to come with ethernal reload times so DPS is more or less unnaltered.

 

- Air detection. Too many things flying around make your torpedos EASILY detected (In fact at T9+ this is a problem for the main boat itself... As you spend quite some time been trolled by enemy carriers)... The extra torp range IJN "enjoy" only works on paper... In practice only increase friendly fire chances. I would gladly trade those 20k ranges for 10k but faster torps, or even better, smaller spread angles.

 

- BB range progression. BB range progression makes the average engagement distance between "task forces" to increase with Tier... Meanwhile IJN DDs are barely faster than cruisers, which means you have to spend far more time maneuvering to avoid the cruiser lines and reach the BBs on the back.

 

 

In the new game mode with a big cap where you score for having ships in the cap only I can see them being very very good. Ships will have to come to areas in this new mode or lose. 

 

Again... All this looks nice in a DD promo, what will happen in gameplay, as it happens now often with T8+ battles, is that at the very moment enemy perceives a DD is "denying area" 2 squadrons of Torpedo Bombers will come in, launch a crisscross torpedo pattern and sink that DD, specially as IJN DDs lack maneuverability, are harmless to high tier aircrafts and most high Tier CV commanders are perfectly aware of this.

 

"Stealth Capping" at high tiers is the field of the US DDs C Hull variants that can prevent CV trolling, I'm afraid.

[VonVolks]

I agree on Fubuki - it is indeed the pinnacle of IJN DD line (not the famous Minekaze). Good camo, good guns, good torps and relatively many of them. Those 3 launchers really help to avoid RNG nature of torps. The only disadvantages are the crawling speed (which really shows itself is someone decides to hunt you) and high repair costs.

 

However, I keep defending Mutsuki. It has no guns, but everything else is perfect. So just put AA configuration and you will be able to get really fun games.

 

Listen to him about both these things. I totally agree. 

[Mayv]

I found both the Mutsuki and Hatsuharu both lacking in the torpedo department, other than that they are decent ships. Both have good AA, Mutsuki is more stealthy and the Hatsuharu has better guns. But it is easy to see why they are considered bad ships by many players. And in my opinion low points in the IJN line. 

[Bulrim]

I'm only up to the Hatsuhara but what I've found is that the damage I deal has gone done but I've put this down to better average players. I've had to change how I play an IJN destroyer from a lone opportunist style to one more focused on team support keeping ships spotted, denying areas and capping if the opportunity arises. As the match progresses I then start to look for gaps in the enemy lines where I can squeeze through and try to attack from the rear, cap and force the enemy to split their forces or find the carrier. I honestly don't expect to hit with torpedoes until much later in the match when ships have become isolated and you have a realistic chance of getting close enough to score some hits.

 

Maybe I'm doing it all wrong but it's what has worked for me so far.

[MS_Surface]

 

Yes, but it still isn't RNG. The game is not at fault here. And even the luck factor have way less impact than you think.

More importantly, what you would want to do about this?

- If you buff torps RoF it would be the lesser of all evils, but it would be direct huge nerf to BB and lesser to CA, unless the BB (and some of the CA, like Myoko or Yorck) would get their turret traverse buffed, and the WG won't do that becaue they would not try to "balance" some ships with it (which is totally stupid, like the top three dumbest restriction in game, they overdid it every time).

- If you buff the range of the torps... We had it in alpha - like 13 km for tier 5 US DD, and everything above had even more. It resulted in hordes of destroyers flooding the map with torps. Nobody push. Boring as hell campfests. Ships dying at random from the fire and forget salvoes.

- If you buff the torp speed or lessen the detection range of torps or DD's.  Some of this also was in alpha already. Two words - death rays. Often it felt like that. It would require one of the two trades (or both) - massive reduction of damage or implementing of RNG mechanics like dud torps (not unlikely to current gun mechanics). Btw. that's the same reason BB players constantly complain about RNG and WG says it's ok.

 

Personally i would drastically reduce the turret traverse of japanese destroyers. It would not make them OP, but it would give them at least some alternative to torps, and as such lessen the "one trick" syndrome they are suffering right now. but, then again, i would reduce the turret traverse of all ships, because somehow this one thing was totally omitted in overall "speed up" tendence in this game (like 150 kn speed or stupid ship scale or false range).

 

Logically, RNG has nothing to do with DD torps.

Buffing torps by increasing the range is like doing nothing, i could have 50km range torpedos, whats the point? Searching for luck? Even 4km range is good if the DD is decent. I've been doing pretty well so far in Russian DDs (now at Ognevoi) and it's fun to play, even when i don't play very well or loose. USN DDs gonna have a big buff. Great for them. Don't wanna let NA players upset.

Now when i play Fubuki it's like the most boring gameplay i have EVER had in this game (next in list are Tier VI and VII IJN DDs). Torp, torp, stay undetected, maybe one torpedo hit if there's some distracted or noob capt on the other ship. Believe me there isn't one single ship in the game that isn't able to dodge any long range torpedoes, i mean any ship. Then you torp again,don't engage any gunboat as you will loose that battle... detected! gonna run, oops no rudder, no engine, smoke screen, wait he has sonar and there's 2 squadrons on top of me, so smoke is useless... try to shoot at that ship before i sunk, wait, i have no turrets nor torps...sunk. Almost looks that every single shell will mess up something... sunk. Just another boring battle.

Suppression?? Area denial? You kidding? I do that all the time, even automatically by missing torps, but friendly BBs and CAs (that don't give a crap about you) love to shoot at ships that are dodging, it's great because those enemy turrets point in other diections and all isn't it? So everybody wins but me. Area denial, suppression, closing straights or passages, keeping 4, 5 ships at large...it's all just a big joke for DDs. "I'm giving you this roles but you won't be rewarded by anything that you do. IJN DDs can only be rewarded if they are lucky" this is what WG is doing. 

 

One thing i totally disagree. Looks like BB and CA captains are always worried about DD buffs or any kind of buff to any other class, the problem must be that like that they won't have time to finish the whole cigarette. BB is the most easy and relaxed class to play. Increasing RoF in DDs would be a nerf to them?

So what do you think about update 0.5.1?

What about the new Russian DD fleet? Isn't that a nerf for IJN DDs? They have much better guns and certainly won't be getting hit by long range torps.

What about the buff to USN DDs? Isn't that a nerf for IJN DDs?

Even the new cap rewarding system doesn't look good to me. I will wait on this one but rewarding all classes just the same for capping or def. cap is, to say the least, ridiculous.

What i predict is a idiotic cap race where everybody tries to cap and forget about it's duties. I've been capping for a long time without being rewarded. Now I will be able to cap for 15 seconds till BBs and CAs eager for more xp cap as well and start dividing the cap points. If WG doesn't attribute cap reward based on ship roles i will simply give up this game as it will mess up big time the game. As WG is doing it, it looks more like rewarding every ship even more than DDs.

WG just nerfed the entire IJN fleet, one way or another. Atago was buffed in a second because WG needs to keep those players that buy Premium ships really happy.

I'll wait till the update to see what happens but i'm almost selling Fubuki (i already researched the Kagero - wow 2 spreads per year - 20km useless torps... same piece of ship...) forget it. I won't be giving any more money to WG just to reach Tier X.

The only decent High Tier IJN DD is Shimakaze (just the sheer amount of torpedoes will make up for other stuff) but then again, it's more profitable for WG that you pay to skip some tiers. instead of letting you have fun with Tier VI, VII, VIII or IX you see what i mean? WG makes you pay for upgrades in IJN DDs that aren't even upgrades, they are trade offs. You get better AA and a bit more HP but you must loose a gun turret. What the hell upgrade is this?

One more reason for the absolute contempt WG treats IJN DDs must be bacause it looks there's to many IJN DDs so WG must be trying to avoid people getting more of them. WG also looks like wanting IJN DD captains to sell their ships.

 

Update looks great in every aspect but i'm not happy at all as WG has absolutely no respect for those who play with these ships.

 

ps. Good thing the Hermelin is getting buffed so it's as good as the Hashidate. Talk about a game changer, careful not to break the balance of the battle.

 

[Major_Tankosic]

This is a sad example of forum whining.

 

"I want all of my torpedoes to hit! MUAAAHAAHAAA!!"

 

I mean, are you really serious? You really sound like a spoiled brat, honestly.

 

A single Shimakaze torpedo packs almost 24.000 dmg. That is a serious blow to any ship, even Yamato and Montana. The game would be much, much more boring if Shimakaze was guaranteed to hit with torpedo every time. People would just walk away from the game, rightfully so.