Too many Hypotheticals in the German cruiser line

[Getzamatic]

I thought I'd wait until the tech tree actually came out before I made a post about this, but this has been bothering me for a while.  Putting aside whether or not the ships are actually any good, in my opinion there are too many hypothetical designs in the German cruiser line.

 

Or perhaps more precisely, the wrong kind of hypotheticals in the wrong places.

 

Now, I'm not adverse to a paper ship here or there - in fact some of the ships I'm most interested in getting to try out were never completed (the G3 battlecruisers, for example) and I totally understand that they are sometimes necessary to fill a capability gap in a tech tree.  But why does the German cruiser lines have so many paper ships when it doesn't need to?

 

For starters, the Hermelin at Tier 1.  The Hermelin design is obscure - really, really obscure - and there are a whole bunch marginally less obscure real ships that could just as readily fulfill the same role.  The training ship Bremse seems like an obvious fit with the only drawback being that she was argualbly too fast (although that doesn't seem to have held back the Russian tier 1 ship) but you could also look at some of the old German protected cruisers or WWII escort ships if you want something small and slow with a handful of cruiser sized guns.  Alternatively, you could use one of the German auxiliary cruisers like the Kormoran.  Auxiliary cruisers were a major part of Germany's naval stragegy in both world wars and Kormoran is certainly famous enough - besides she would make an interesting sight lumbering around in low tier battles.

 

I'm actually okay with the Yorck design at tier 7 - this is where a paper ship is fine because it effectively bridges the gap between the Nurnberg and Hipper and it is a historical design study - but everything really goes to hell at tier 9 and 10.

 

As far as I can make out - and has already been pointed out elsewhere - the Roon and Hindenberg designs are completely fictitious.  Aside from setting a dangerous precedent (say hello to fleets of imaginary battleships and carriers for certain navies that had no such ships in reality) it's completely unneccessary.  The Deutschland class heavy cruisers were very real ships, and at roughly 12,000 tons displacement they were about the same size as the Baltimore and Ibuki.  Yes, they had 280mm guns, but they only had six, they were pretty slow and their armour was nothing to write home about.  I simply don't understand why these famous and unusual ships have been excluded from the line.  Similarly, although it's another hypothetical, Kreuzer D was at least the real follow on design to the Deutschlands and would have been about the same size as the Des Moines class turned out in reality.  It seems like an obvious fit for tier 10.

 

The only reason I can think of is that WG has decided that no cruiser can have guns bigger than 203mm, irrespective of whether the other elements of a ship's design would provide effective balance - but this is an entirely arbitary limit.  As it is, a class of ships that I don't doubt would have been very interesting to play - and probably a bit underpowered compared to their faster rivals with rapid firing guns - will probably only ever show up as oddly tiered premium battleships - and seriously, where would you put the Deutschlands as battleships?  Tier 4?  Even a Myogi would eat them alive...

[Gojuadorai]

thanks for this good writeup

 

i guess now we know what we can spend money on when they release it as premium ships....

[Crysantos]

I think the reason for the lack of the "Deutschland" etc. is the intention of WG to release a battlecruiser line for the KM. So keep that in mind ;)

[Gojuadorai]

is that just your opinion or are there any facts to support this?

 

[Getzamatic]

I think the reason for the lack of the "Deutschland" etc. is the intention of WG to release a battlecruiser line for the KM. So keep that in mind ;)

 

It would make a terrible battlecruiser too.

 

Even the earliest German battlecruiser, the Vonn der Tann, would be faster with more guns and way, way more armour - as you would expect when comparing a 12,000 ton ship wth a 20,000 ton ship.  Realistically the only advantage the Deutschlands would have would be gun range.

[Vaderan]

Even if there will be a BC line somewhere in the future, the Deutschland class will never be suited for a BC role. Even the worst BCs i can think of, the Invincible class, is a 17000 tons design with 8 30,5cm guns and armor twice as thick as that of the Deutschland class. The german "von der Tann" is a 20000tons ship with even better armor.

 

WG has already proven that they don´t mind to put garbage ships in the german techtree, where valuable replacements would have been available. The Tier 4 Karlshure is a burden to any player, slowest of its kind, less guns, worse torpedos, no AAA, but WG considered it more fitting than the 1925 Emden, which was still a fail design, do to Versaille-restrictions, but a much better design compared to the Karlshure (yes, i know it´s Karsruhe).

Instead of the Yorck at tier 7, the Deutschland would have made up for a great tier 7 cruiser. Completly different to any of the IJN or USN design, but still within the 10000tons range. Less, but more powerfull guns, some secondary guns, some torps, poor AAA, slower and worse armor protection compared to the other tier 7, but still a ship able to provide a unique playstyle.

Having a look what WG did to the german cruiser tree, and refering to my tier 2-5 experience so far, i cannot help but assume that WG just wanted to achieve two things with this german tree: silence the german community with some ships they want, and make them utterly crap so the world can experience once more, how bad german engeneering is and ever has been.

The fictional designs for their top tiers are just the cherry on top.

[Getzamatic]

I actually really enjoyed the Dresden, but as I have said elsewhere, the Kolberg doesn't really need to be in the tree and the Karlsruhe would make an nice tier III cruiser.

 

However, Deutschland is much too powerful for tier 7.

 

If I were creating the tech tree it would look like this;

 

Kormoran

Dresden

Karlsruhe

Emden

Konigsberg

Nurnberg

Entwurf I/10 (aka Yorck - yes, I'd keep it)

Hipper

Deutschland

Kreuzer D

 

We get rid of the redundant Kolberg and move the Karlsruhe into a tier where she's actually competitive.  Emden is fast enough to compete with a Kuma or Phoenix and she has a historical upgrade path that gives her a decent AA fit.  We have an obvious progession in increasing gun power across the tree with only Deutschland being significantly slower than her predecessor.  There are only two hypotheticals and none of the designs are fictitious.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

I actually really enjoyed the Dresden, but as I have said elsewhere, the Kolberg doesn't really need to be in the tree and the Karlsruhe would make an nice tier III cruiser.

 

However, Deutschland is much too powerful for tier 7.

 

If I were creating the tech tree it would look like this;

 

Kormoran

Dresden

Karlsruhe

Emden

Konigsberg

Nurnberg

Entwurf I/10 (aka Yorck - yes, I'd keep it)

Hipper

Deutschland

Kreuzer D

 

We get rid of the redundant Kolberg and move the Karlsruhe into a tier where she's actually competitive.  Emden is fast enough to compete with a Kuma or Phoenix and she has a historical upgrade path that gives her a decent AA fit.  We have an obvious progession in increasing gun power across the tree with only Deutschland being significantly slower than her predecessor.  There are only two hypotheticals and none of the designs are fictitious.

 

Deutschland at 9? Yeah. Outrun and outranged by every Battleship on its tier, that would be fun.

Forget the Deutschlands, shitty designs which are difficult to fit in this game.

Probably Tier 6 Premium sometime in the future.

[Getzamatic]

The Baltimore is also outrun and out ranged by the Iowa - doesn't make it a bad ship.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

The Baltimore is also outrun and out ranged by the Iowa - doesn't make it a bad ship.

 

But not by 6 knots, and it's better armoured than a Deutschland. By the way, ingame the Baltimore is two knots faster than the Iowa.

The Deutschland is never, ever tier 9 material. It had no armour whatsoever, it would probably be penned by Gearings it wouldn't even see.

[RamirezKurita]

I don't think we will ever see the Deutschland-class as battleships, their displacement is simply far too low and their armour too thin to even compete against battleships 10 years older than them. Really, they belong in the mid-upper tiers as cruisers, sacrificing speed for firepower, particularly considering how in terms of age and displacement they belong with the other treaty cruisers at about T7-8. They should have their own panzerschiffe line that branches out from the cruisers at T7-8, with the higher tiers being fleshed out with the paper panzerschiffe designs (I'm currently aware of the so-called "D-class" and "P-class", but there's probably other designs and preliminary studies out there).

[Historynerd]

Kormoran

 

I don't think that the Kormoran would be adequate; it's not even a true warship, but an armed merchantmen. And she is quite big, a bit overpowered for a Tier I (six 152 mm guns) and rather slowish...

[Getzamatic]

 

I don't think that the Kormoran would be adequate; it's not even a true warship, but an armed merchantmen. And she is quite big, a bit overpowered for a Tier I (six 152 mm guns) and rather slowish...

 

True, I just thought it would be a fun idea.

[Gatt]

I thought I'd wait until the tech tree actually came out before I made a post about this, but this has been bothering me for a while.  Putting aside whether or not the ships are actually any good, in my opinion there are too many hypothetical designs in the German cruiser line.

 

Or perhaps more precisely, the wrong kind of hypotheticals in the wrong places.

 

Now, I'm not adverse to a paper ship here or there - in fact some of the ships I'm most interested in getting to try out were never completed (the G3 battlecruisers, for example) and I totally understand that they are sometimes necessary to fill a capability gap in a tech tree.  But why does the German cruiser lines have so many paper ships when it doesn't need to?

 

For starters, the Hermelin at Tier 1.  The Hermelin design is obscure - really, really obscure - and there are a whole bunch marginally less obscure real ships that could just as readily fulfill the same role.  The training ship Bremse seems like an obvious fit with the only drawback being that she was argualbly too fast (although that doesn't seem to have held back the Russian tier 1 ship) but you could also look at some of the old German protected cruisers or WWII escort ships if you want something small and slow with a handful of cruiser sized guns.  Alternatively, you could use one of the German auxiliary cruisers like the Kormoran.  Auxiliary cruisers were a major part of Germany's naval stragegy in both world wars and Kormoran is certainly famous enough - besides she would make an interesting sight lumbering around in low tier battles.

 

I'm actually okay with the Yorck design at tier 7 - this is where a paper ship is fine because it effectively bridges the gap between the Nurnberg and Hipper and it is a historical design study - but everything really goes to hell at tier 9 and 10.

 

As far as I can make out - and has already been pointed out elsewhere - the Roon and Hindenberg designs are completely fictitious.  Aside from setting a dangerous precedent (say hello to fleets of imaginary battleships and carriers for certain navies that had no such ships in reality) it's completely unneccessary.  The Deutschland class heavy cruisers were very real ships, and at roughly 12,000 tons displacement they were about the same size as the Baltimore and Ibuki.  Yes, they had 280mm guns, but they only had six, they were pretty slow and their armour was nothing to write home about.  I simply don't understand why these famous and unusual ships have been excluded from the line.  Similarly, although it's another hypothetical, Kreuzer D was at least the real follow on design to the Deutschlands and would have been about the same size as the Des Moines class turned out in reality.  It seems like an obvious fit for tier 10.

 

The only reason I can think of is that WG has decided that no cruiser can have guns bigger than 203mm, irrespective of whether the other elements of a ship's design would provide effective balance - but this is an entirely arbitary limit.  As it is, a class of ships that I don't doubt would have been very interesting to play - and probably a bit underpowered compared to their faster rivals with rapid firing guns - will probably only ever show up as oddly tiered premium battleships - and seriously, where would you put the Deutschlands as battleships?  Tier 4?  Even a Myogi would eat them alive...

 

Deutschland-class: relatively slow, poor armor, few big guns. I bet she will be a Premium ship.

[JapLance]

I actually really enjoyed the Dresden, but as I have said elsewhere, the Kolberg doesn't really need to be in the tree and the Karlsruhe would make an nice tier III cruiser.

 

I just expressed the same concern in another thread. Only that I didn't enjoy the Dresden at all...

[VonPletz]

The only reason I can think of is that WG has decided that no cruiser can have guns bigger than 203mm, irrespective of whether the other elements of a ship's design would provide effective balance - but this is an entirely arbitary limit.  As it is, a class of ships that I don't doubt would have been very interesting to play - and probably a bit underpowered compared to their faster rivals with rapid firing guns - will probably only ever show up as oddly tiered premium battleships - and seriously, where would you put the Deutschlands as battleships?  Tier 4?  Even a Myogi would eat them alive...

 

Funny you should mention 203mm guns as the 210mm was more common on German Cruisers.

 

[Vaderan]

 

Deutschland at 9? Yeah. Outrun and outranged by every Battleship on its tier, that would be fun.

Forget the Deutschlands, shitty designs which are difficult to fit in this game.

Probably Tier 6 Premium sometime in the future.

 

The Deutschland would be outperformed at tier 9, i guess. However, her 11" guns were only outranged by the Yamato. Deutschland and Scharnhorst class, featuring identical armament, had more range than Bismarck or Iowa etc...

It wouldn´t do any good for the game anyway.

[Historynerd]

 

The Deutschland would be outperformed at tier 9, i guess. However, her 11" guns were only outranged by the Yamato. Deutschland and Scharnhorst class, featuring identical armament, had more range than Bismarck or Iowa etc...

It wouldn´t do any good for the game anyway.

 

I think you're referring to the 28cm SK C/34 which had a very long range (although the earlier C/28 also had a good range); however, if we want to be precise (and it doesn't detract from your point anyway ), they were also outranged by the Italian 381 mm Model 1934 of the Littorio-class.

[Vaderan]

 

I think you're referring to the 28cm SK C/34 which had a very long range (although the earlier C/28 also had a good range); however, if we want to be precise (and it doesn't detract from your point anyway ), they were also outranged by the Italian 381 mm Model 1934 of the Littorio-class.

 

426hm@ 45° for the 11" compared to 428hm @ 35° for the 15" of the Littorio, now we start to celebrate knowledge-prostitution . If the italian BBs will ever be introduced to the game, and if the Deutschland will ever make it, we will see how WG handles this difference... I fear for the worst, however.

Now, seriously and back to topic: WG has ever since proven to be very creative if they want to balance things the one or other way, refering to historical or balancing standards, especially when buffing soviet material or nerfing anything else .

If WG wants to, they will find a way to implement and balance the Deutschland class. The question is: do they want to create a unique cruiser, or just one of the worst BCs/BBs of the game.

Refering to the german low tier cruisers, i´d almost expect to see a ridiculously bad BC/BB...

[Getzamatic]

 

Refering to the german low tier cruisers, i´d almost expect to see a ridiculously bad BC/BB...

 

And that would be a travesty, the WWI German Battlecruisers were genuinely superb ships...

[Historynerd]

 

426hm@ 45° for the 11" compared to 428hm @ 35° for the 15" of the Littorio, now we start to celebrate knowledge-prostitution . If the italian BBs will ever be introduced to the game, and if the Deutschland will ever make it, we will see how WG handles this difference... I fear for the worst, however.

Now, seriously and back to topic: WG has ever since proven to be very creative if they want to balance things the one or other way, refering to historical or balancing standards, especially when buffing soviet material or nerfing anything else .

If WG wants to, they will find a way to implement and balance the Deutschland class. The question is: do they want to create a unique cruiser, or just one of the worst BCs/BBs of the game.

Refering to the german low tier cruisers, i´d almost expect to see a ridiculously bad BC/BB...

 

But weren't the Scharnhorst-class turrets able to elevate only to 40°, which gave them a maximum range of 40'930 m? Again, this doesn't change much, I just gotta be me. 

 

I agree over WG being able to balance a lot of things if they want to, though.

[Getzamatic]

Okay, If the Deutschlands aren't good enough for tier 9 and seeing as there seems to be a concensus that the Hipper doesn't cut the mustard at tier 8, what if the tree looked like this?

 

Tier 1 - Bremse

Tier 2 - Dresden

Tier 3 - Karlsruhe

Tier 4 - Emden

Tier 5 - Konigsberg

Tier 6 - Nurnberg

Tier 7 - Hipper

Tier 8 - Deutschland

Tier 9 - Kreuzer D

Tier 10 - Kreuzer P

 

Still only two hypotheticals, both at the end of the tree and both historical design studies.

 

Keuzer P, incidentally, was a 23,000 ton 33 knot design with extensive armour.  If she won't cut it at tier 10, nothing will...

[Ebusus]

I agree wholy with the spirit of this thread. No need for so many outright inventions when we have potentials here that can even make the game style different and the whole line less sucky.

[Micromagos]

Why all the tier 9 talk of the Deutschland class shes pretty much a older inferior version of the Admiral Hipper class which we have at tier 8. [edit] At best she is a tier 8 possibly even a tier 7 on par with the myoko or pensacola.

[Getzamatic]

The Deutschlands were quite different to the Hippers.  They had six 280mm guns, eight 150mm guns and six 105mm guns.  That's way more firepower than either of the actual tier 9 cruisers - the Deutschlands had a battleship grade secondary battery and at high tiers we can expect it to actually do something too.  There armour was bad compared to a proper battleship, but compared to a cruiser they are well protected.  The Deutschland's armour was thicker than the Hipper's in almost every particular and was comparable to that of the Baltimore class (thicker on the turrets and thinner on the belt, but sloped which partially makes up for it).  The only place she comes up short is speed and AA guns.

 

As for tier 7?  you got to be kidding me.  In reality a Deutschland could kick the shins out of a Pensacola and come back for more.  The Deutschlands were created specifically to be an overwhelming threat to treaty cruisers and one can hardly say they didn't live up to their design brief.  At River Plate Admiral Graf Spee took on three cruisers simultaneously and whilst she didn't exactly come out unscathed, she held off Ajax and Achilles quite effectively and wrecked Exeter pretty badly - and Exeter was way better protected than a Pensacola and about the same as a Myoko.