German Cruiser Feedback

[Psusennes]

The entire line feels rushed to me. None of these ships have been fun to play, they have too many glaring flaws that detract from the experience.

 

I don't agree. The lower tier can be fun if you like to play lower tier. T2 and T3 have a lot of power compared to its peers.

 

T5 is fun too.

T6 and T7 can be skipped

 

Admiral Hipper is great fun.

 

[havaduck]

 

 

1. Turning circle is important. Rudder shift dictates how fast your are getting a divergence from where you were going. Turning circle dictate how fast you get an angle toward a AP salvo coming your way or completely get out of the way. If turning

have some turning circles for entertainment:

T3: 450 - 560

T4: 630 - 640

T5: 600 - 750

T6: 660 - 710

T7: 620 - 780

T8: 660 - 750

T9: 730 - 770

T10: 770 - 840

 

Turning circle is on IJN from T5 onward practically on the niveau of the North Carolina (760 m) on T7! Only T4 are comparable rest is more or less advantageous for the US. The turning circle is the reason a US cruiser might dodge a BB salvoes dispersion in a way a IJN cruiser cant. This is huge since armor which both dont posses is basicly useless and even a stray hit can will citadell you.

 

2. somewhat true, but if anyone the US cruiser are the only ones whose AA actually DOES something. Its a important flavour nonetheless and with the upcoming 3 charges it is a big difference. 2 seems awfully low and wasting 3 pts to get superintendent .... (also the planes in the future ...)

 

3. look what i wrote ... exactly that, but just to play your game: Thats in case of the DP guns the thing thats gets 9x the damage increas against a focused squad, has the longest range AA and the only thing actually capable of panicking planes with the consumable. Truth be told my cruiser secondaries have been worth more than me BB secondaries if you ask me.

 

4. Yes, because its still good, its just not the best so far. If we get more Nations and trees there will be divsification and you wont be getting far judging thing by either being best or not-best in their categories.

 

5. First its Mogami 15 cm also on IJN. Then theres Cleveland and Atlanta on the US side, therefore 6 and 7.

All of which also depends heavily  on their fire chance. And If the fire chance dont matter ... how come german CLs are not great fire starters .. if anything the are fast firing. So actually more than a flavour by how important it is.

Considering a angled approach on a BB and normalized by fire resistance by tier a Omaha is better fire starter than Mogami 15 cm.

 

6. I disagree. USN cruiser are both when I drive and when I shoot them much harder to citadel. Also with USN cruiser it is easier to keep somewhat of an angle and still use your guns, therefore you either have more effective guns on target, or protection or it easier to angle away from a incoming salvo. Also they are on average shorter. Less citadell worthy and overall total length make for more difficult hits.

Definitely flavour.

 

7. Have to ask on data on the guaranteed bounce angles for IJN as I dont know them. For all I know the USN ones are getting buffed.

 

8. see 4.

 

9. So you play all your cruisers without expert marksman then I assume? I can put up with IJN turret speeds, but they are mostly horrible after I sold the "superdestroyers". Mogami with 15 AND the skill has the same traverse as Minekaze without ....

And ofc this can be a massive advantage considering the cruiser gameplay of waving to avoid fire. Keeping your guns on targets allows you make better use of the rudder in a turn. Else its either a even WIDER turning circle or decrease in damage for IJN.

After that manoeuvre getting your guns trained on the other side is wasted time that is pure DPM and nothing more.

But I can rest assured you are a big fan of Yorck and not using expert marksman?

 

10. Not having torpedoes is another defining point of the american cruiser lines, and Atlanta got them too so its T8. The torps on the Omaha are much more useful in anything than long range or area denial than their IJN counterparts. The same goes for the german torp angles. The "superdestroyers" Tenryu and Kuma have their middle mounts, and then I think only Furutaka (but only 1 set which is bad if you want to force hits. Also had bad range in my time, but has been buffed in that regard) and Atago (one set only other doesnt) have good angles, everything else get literally a$$-torpedoes, that scream "citadel me know" and "I am torping you right now".

 

11. I have the steering gear Mod installed in Nagato and still lose my rudder frequently to HE hits, that is how good the IJN modules are. I am at Mogami and so far this is the first ship I did not get last stand for the captain. Like with the higher fire chance on 15 cm (mini demo expert) this is another "free captain skill" (mini last stand in that case or maybe prev. maint.).

Nothing is more annoying than to loose your barely scratched ship because of two taken out modules in a row ...

That said, there is last stand for that, but then the AA screen isnt as big, which is important for the AA-barrage umbrella.

Definitely flavour.

 

 

 

[OOAndreasOO]

My opinion about?

 

OP

too OP

absurdly OP

 

Look this comparison about tier VI ships for example

 

(*) Considering 1st level skill "basic firing training"

 

 

[VonNorwegen]

Never in any other ship can you be so certain, that the incoming salvo is gonna sink you. You see the BB fire at you from about 16-17km away you try to turn away but you know its never gonna happen.

[Gojuadorai]

My opinion about?

 

OP

too OP

absurdly OP

 

Look this comparison about tier VI ships for example

 

(*) Considering 1st level skill "basic firing training"

 

 

 

calssic troll ...

as if you could calc gun dps that way  (you know without penetration data ,fire chance, dispersion etc....)

just for the  information basic firing training wont aply any more from 0.51 on

[Admiral_noodle]

I've had a go in all but Hindenberg now and shockingly I really like them. Even Yorck. With the right captain skills and upgrades the heavy cruisers feel like heavy cruisers and angled they do seem to shrug off shots. Very angled though. Nurnberg is fun too.

 

My only concern is for some reason I can't seem to do citadels against other cruisers. Good damage even against BBs though.

 

Karl is still awful in the 0.5.1 test though

[Harte74]

The higher tiers at the very least need better HE shell stats, it's a major major drawback of the line at the moment.

 

Why even use HE? I really don't get, why so many thinks, that HE spamming is the only way to fight in a CA.

[Harte74]

As others have mentioned, the risk of engine and rudder damage is extreme. Even when I get hit at the front half, my engine and rudder get blown to pieces. That needs to be changed.

[VonNorwegen]

 

Why even use HE? I really don't get, why so many thinks, that HE spamming is the only way to fight in a CA.

 

Why do you think everyone you fight is showing his broadside? Good luck using AP on a North Carolina on the front

[VonPletz]

 

Why do you think everyone you fight is showing his broadside? Good luck using AP on a North Carolina on the front

 

Yeah...I agree...NC from the front...you better be using HE because AP is worthless.  Also, if you are doing a 1 on 1 with a DD...you better be using HE also because your AP is going to pass right through them..  German HE has horrid damage but the key is to take out the modules like his torps and engines  just as he will do to you (especially in a Konigsberg/Nuernberg) 

 

[JG4_sKylon]

 

Why even use HE? I really don't get, why so many thinks, that HE spamming is the only way to fight in a CA.

 

Drive the Yorck and you do know why. It´s not because HE is so powerful.

 

Crap ship.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

1. Turning circle is important. Rudder shift dictates how fast your are getting a divergence from where you were going. Turning circle dictate how fast you get an angle toward a AP salvo coming your way or completely get out of the way

You're wrong. Actually it's totally other way around. Small turning circle gives you advantage when you make a hard turn, 180 degrees possibly. How fast ship will response to your turn command depends on rudder shift time - and you only need small turn when dodging incoming fire. US CA have "advantage" when they try to dodge torpedoes, as that's when you make a hard turn. Or avoiding an island. I would draw it for you, but my drawing skills are even below my english skills. In short, IJN response faster, US CA's will turn tighter after they shift their rudder. There is no advantage here really. It's cosmetic.

 

Somewhat true, but if anyone the US cruiser are the only ones whose AA actually DOES something. Its a important flavour nonetheless and with the upcoming 3 charges it is a big difference. 2 seems awfully low and wasting 3 pts to get superintendent .... (also the planes in the future ...)

And here comes out you don't play on tier IX and X. You don't waste points on superintendent - you need it for HP regeneration. It's vital for CA to have this skill. The fact that in oncoming patch it will be even more significant doesn't change anything. AA dps is still lackluster compared to what BB's bring to table. I don't want my AA to do something, I want my AA to create a no-go zone for enemy planes, right now - it's a meh zone. Recently, before I changed my captain skill, dude flew over my Des Moines with his full armada, one squad at a time, and my superior AA shot down 4 planes, 1 TB, 2 DB and 1 fighter. And we we're even going in the same direction. AA is pointless unless you pop Defensive Fire - which you can do totally the same on IJN or GE CA's. It's not a flavour whatsoever. It might be, if they change it later - which I oppose strongly, as it's a very passive and unrewarding feature.

 Truth be told my cruiser secondaries have been worth more than me BB secondaries if you ask me.

I don't even think I've ever noticed them shooting. And if I did, they do like 500 dmg, compared to 50000 - 80000 I do normally.

 4. Yes, because its still good, its just not the best so far. If we get more Nations and trees there will be divsification and you wont be getting far judging thing by either being best or not-best in their categories.

I think you miss the point of a "flavour". It's something specific, usually an advantage. IJN flavour is high HE damage. GE flavor is high AP damage. US doesn't have any specific or advantageous thing going for them here. Like I said, only "flavour" to the US CA would be higher RoF.

5. First its Mogami 15 cm also on IJN. Then theres Cleveland and Atlanta on the US side, therefore 6 and 7.

All of which also depends heavily  on their fire chance. And If the fire chance dont matter ... how come german CLs are not great fire starters .. if anything the are fast firing. So actually more than a flavour by how important it is.

Considering a angled approach on a BB and normalized by fire resistance by tier a Omaha is better fire starter than Mogami 15 cm.

Furutaka already has 200 mm guns. But it doesn't matter. As long as sumed up fire chance is high enough, you will start first fire with your first salvo. Same with GE CA. Atlanta, with recent nerf to it's HE ammo, is worthless right now. I spam 300 hits on BB's superstructure and do 25k damage plus 8k fire damage.

In short. You will start first fire with ease if you are in US, IJN and GE CA. The lowest chance of doing it has GE CA, but if you score 5 hits, each has a 8% chance to start a fire, then it actually might need second salvo. It's not a flavour. 

 

6. I disagree. USN cruiser are both when I drive and when I shoot them much harder to citadel. Also with USN cruiser it is easier to keep somewhat of an angle and still use your guns, therefore you either have more effective guns on target, or protection or it easier to angle away from a incoming salvo. Also they are on average shorter. Less citadell worthy and overall total length make for more difficult hits.

Definitely flavour.

Well, I have different opinion. The only thing here, that separates US from IJN, is that IJN are longer up to tier VIII. Although, they also have a better silhouette. So again, no real difference here in my opinion (apart from Cleveland). Also, as they are longer, they don't have to angle themselves that much bro. Mathematics. 

 

7. Have to ask on data on the guaranteed bounce angles for IJN as I dont know them. For all I know the USN ones are getting buffed.

And that's actualy a very important change. It might bring some flavour to the US line. Ammo that do less damage then GE ones, but have better penetration angle. But it's still only in patch and test server, will see if it will made to live.

8. see 4.

It's not a flavour.

9. So you play all your cruisers without expert marksman then I assume? I can put up with IJN turret speeds, but they are mostly horrible after I sold the "superdestroyers". Mogami with 15 AND the skill has the same traverse as Minekaze without ....

And ofc this can be a massive advantage considering the cruiser gameplay of waving to avoid fire. Keeping your guns on targets allows you make better use of the rudder in a turn. Else its either a even WIDER turning circle or decrease in damage for IJN.

After that manoeuvre getting your guns trained on the other side is wasted time that is pure DPM and nothing more.

But I can rest assured you are a big fan of Yorck and not using expert marksman?

Actually, yeah, I'm inclined to do so. Currently I have that skill on some captains, not all, but only because tier II perks are more or less worthless. If you play with Situational Awarness you don't need additional alert. And preventing fire is just broken useless perk. And we don't really have planes right? So it leaves only faster turret turning as somewhat usefull. But recently I'm more and more convinced that actually that alerting perk is worth more then Marksman. Turret turning becomes less and less important the higher tier you play. Engagements are happening on longer distances, you usually know where the opponent will appear and plan your moves accordingly. Yorck is garbage, and no one tries to deny it. But calling faster turret turning a flavour? When you do full turn, you usually lock your turrets on the side you plan to shoot at at the beginning of the manouver - at least I do so. So even in Atago I don't noticed any real difference. Definitely not a flavour.

 

Not having torpedoes is another defining point of the american cruiser lines, and Atlanta got them too so its T8. The torps on the Omaha are much more useful in anything than long range or area denial than their IJN counterparts. The same goes for the german torp angles. The "superdestroyers" Tenryu and Kuma have their middle mounts, and then I think only Furutaka (but only 1 set which is bad if you want to force hits. Also had bad range in my time, but has been buffed in that regard) and Atago (one set only other doesnt) have good angles, everything else get literally a$$-torpedoes, that scream "citadel me know" and "I am torping you right now".

Not having torpedoes is not a flavour, it's a flaw. And torps on Omaha being more usefull then Furutaka ones? Lulz. Tenryu and Kuma? Especially Kuma, one of the most OP ships in the whole game? And having in mind cruisers are usually fighting in a retreat - being able to shoot torps backwards is pretty nice. Having torps is a flavour, long range torps is a flavour, not having torps is a flaw. Omaha torps are pretty much an icing on the cake. 5.5 range? You won't torp much with them. Konigsberg at least can launch them forward, which means you can occasionaly banzai some less skilled BB player. 

Well, I don't really feel experienced enough to argue with you. My high tier CA in IJN is Atago, and although I agree that steering and engine are prone to damage, it stopped being an issue when I installed a module to prevent them - happens really rare nowadays. Definitely, not a flavour, check this out:

 

Hey, your cruiser is just worse in every aspect then IJN counterpart, but hey, your steering gear won't break so often! Grind US plox? No wonder you stop seeing US CA from tier VI upwards. There is no point, no special feature, no selling advantage to them. And peps get hyped on Des Moines RoF (which is a flavour btw), only to be utterly dissapointed by it's shell trajectory and speed. I sometimes encounter some New Orleans, very rarely Baltimore, and few Des Moineses. But since Des is actually a very demanding ship to play, they usually perform very bad, either sink as first, or doing minimal damage as they try to keep themselves from harms way.

[OOAndreasOO]

 

calssic troll ...

as if you could calc gun dps that way  (you know without penetration data ,fire chance, dispersion etc....)

just for the  information basic firing training wont aply any more from 0.51 on

 

Ok...try to face a Nurnberg driving an Aoba or a Cleveland then...a skilled player, not a noob.

Look how many time he put you on fire

 

In game is written basic firing training is applied up to 155 cal guns...if it no more is better correct. A lot of ppl like me take this skill for ligt cruisers.

I cant know what's happens in previous upgrades

[kamuka]

 Especially Kuma, one of the most OP ships in the whole game

 

Kuma isn't OP. It's still a bad ship compared to the BBs and CVs of its tier. Even the Myogi which is a horrible BB for its tier will kill a Kuma 10/10 times.

It is semi competitive thought, while high tier CAs are just absolutely useless.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

 Kuma isn't OP

Is not? It's so absurdly OP, that is even beyond Cleveland from CBT levels of OPness.

 

And really, Myogi kills you in Kuma? I mean, like, really? 10 on 10 times?

 

[mtm78]

 

Kuma isn't OP. It's still a bad ship compared to the BBs and CVs of its tier. Even the Myogi which is a horrible BB for its tier will kill a Kuma 10/10 times.

It is semi competitive thought, while high tier CAs are just absolutely useless.

 

You're fully entitled to your opinion, but just know I don't in any way agree. I love burning Myogi's with Kuma, it's more OP imo then OPMaha for instance. Now I do admit that Kuma is also way more fragile, so you depend a lot on your situational awareness and you ability to weave and prioritize. 

[kamuka]

Hurr Durr I'm to stupid to understand that comparisions between ships are made with equal player skill in mind.

 

 

Not my fault you die to Kumas all the time. You know you can just 1-2 salvo them, right? You also should go and look up your Cleveland stats from CBT for a reminder of just how OP it was .. not.

 

 

You're fully entitled to your opinion, but just know I don't in any way agree. I love burning Myogi's with Kuma, it's more OP imo then OPMaha for instance. Now I do admit that Kuma is also way more fragile, so you depend a lot on your situational awareness and you ability to weave and prioritize. 

 

 

And in a Myoki you will salvo Kumas? What is your point?

 

good player in Myoki > good player in Kuma

 

It's not even a contest. And Myoki is one of the worst/tier BBs in the game with literally half the guns of its tier peer while the Kuma is a serious contender for best/tier cruiser in the game.

 

 

The point was "Cruisers in this game are crap" anyways. 90% of cruisers need to be brought up to Kuma levels of performance, instead of the Kuma being nerfed to uselessness.

[Pokerjoker]

after grinding the Yorck to Admiral.. I gotto say, the Yorck is the most difficult ship to master. but it can shine in battle. but by far the most odd ship to get to know. anyways. gald im passed it now.. oh what a grind.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Bro, in CBT I was learning the game. I tried to torp peps in Phoenix. After I learned how to play this game it's clearly visible - just check my last grinded ship - Aoba. 

 

But, CBT was CBT. And Kuma is dope.

 Hurr Durr I'm to stupid to understand that comparisions between ships are made with equal player skill in mind.

But since you're not really very nice, and regarding your appaling 35k average on it (which is terribad for a betatester with 1000 games in CBT), and the fact you're a little mad:

 

[mtm78]

 

Not my fault you die to Kumas all the time. You know you can just 1-2 salvo them, right? You also should go and look up your Cleveland stats from CBT for a reminder of just how OP it was .. not.

 

 

 

And in a Myoki you will salvo Kumas? What is your point?

 

good player in Myoki > good player in Kuma

 

It's not even a contest. And Myoki is one of the worst/tier BBs in the game with literally half the guns of its tier peer while the Kuma is a serious contender for best/tier cruiser in the game.

 

 

The point was "Cruisers in this game are crap" anyways. 90% of cruisers need to be brought up to Kuma levels of performance, instead of the Kuma being nerfed to uselessness.

 

I don't agree, equal player in Kuma should beat equal player in Myogi since a> Kuma dps b> Kuma fire chance c> kuma top speed and turn radius allowing it to control the engagement. 

 

Ofc, a Kuma will not often only face a BB and weaving and minimizing return fire hit chances against multiple ships becomes as much luck as skill, but I'm 100% sure if you put me in a Kuma vs me in a Myogi in a training room, the Myogi will not fare well. 

[wingos80]

the karlsruhe tier IV is the literal rock bottom of any ship in wows. terrible range for its tier and just bad guns and speed. needs urgent buff

[kamuka]

 

But, CBT was CBT. And Kuma is dope.

But since you're not really very nice, and regarding your appaling 35k average on it (which is terribad for a betatester with 1000 games in CBT), and the fact you're a little mad:

 

Do you really want to play the stats game? Alright. Maybe you just can't hit the broad side of a barn in a BB, judging from you 25k average Wyoming, and that's why you die to cruisers in your BB?

 

 

I don't agree, equal player in Kuma should beat equal player in Myogi since a> Kuma dps b> Kuma fire chance c> kuma top speed and turn radius allowing it to control the engagement. 

 

Ofc, a Kuma will not often only face a BB and weaving and minimizing return fire hit chances against multiple ships becomes as much luck as skill, but I'm 100% sure if you put me in a Kuma vs me in a Myogi in a training room, the Myogi will not fare well. 

 

Good lord. Go play a Myogi and tell me when you find someone who sinks you with a Kuma in a 1on1. I'll talk to you in 2025.

 

The Kuma does not overperform in any stat at it's tier. It is not a terrible ship like most other cruisers, but it's far away from being OP. Hosho does 1.5 times its average damage*. THAT is OP.

 

 

*when I'm talking stats, I'm talking last weeks EU top10% players.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

 Do you really want to play the stats game? Alright. Maybe you just can't hit the broad side of a barn in a BB, judging from you 25k average Wyoming, and that's why you die to cruisers in your BB?

Haha, dude. Duuuuude. I have, hear hear, 3 games in Wyoming. But, alas, I have 7 in South Carolina and have double of your average dmg. Dum dum duuuuum! What now? And I actually think I was afk one game in Wyoming. 

You're just bad mon. mtm78 is a nice guy, so he won't tell you that, but I will. You need reaaaaally good ship to perform "decent" And Kuma is straight up to your face OP is you are experienced CA captain. I could take 2 Myogis with the same experience as mine in Kuma - with ease. Hell, I'd took Wyoming 1 vs 1 in Kuma and won 8/10 fights. I even dare to say, that New York is also in range of Kuma. But keep posting man, you make me giggle, which is nice in my sad life of protecting the german CA for last few days.

[Vhadur]

How about sticking to the actual Topic, which is German Cruiser Feedback ;D

[kamuka]

Haha, dude. Duuuuude. I have, hear hear, 3 games in Wyoming. But, alas, I have 7 in South Carolina and have double of your average dmg. Dum dum duuuuum! What now? And I actually think I was afk one game in Wyoming. 

You're just bad mon. mtm78 is a nice guy, so he won't tell you that, but I will. You need reaaaaally good ship to perform "decent" And Kuma is straight up to your face OP is you are experienced CA captain. I could take 2 Myogis with the same experience as mine in Kuma - with ease. Hell, I'd took Wyoming 1 vs 1 in Kuma and won 8/10 fights. I even dare to say, that New York is also in range of Kuma. But keep posting man, you make me giggle, which is nice in my sad life of protecting the german CA for last few days.

 

More gibberish and crap that can not be proven. I actually was afk in all of my Kuma games, you know... /facepalm

 

Myogi 26497 avg. dmg

Kuma 31243

Yubari 26815

Hosho 45649

Isokaze 29591

Karlsruhe 17044 (was it this german cruiser, you were defending?)

Wyoming 33987

etc

 

Kuma is not OP. The only "proof" you have brought is tales about how long you [edited]is.