Ship Physics wrong

[ThikBrick]

Hi Community but Especially Defs !

 

I just wanted to desperately announce that the physics of steering a ship is sadly totally wrong...

 

First of all, as faster your ship goes as harder it gets to correct any direction.. since you have an over 200m line that moves in the water, as faster this line moves as more stable it is in its direction.. 

in the game you can turn best as faster you move so thats the first horrible mistake..

 

second is the turning behavior at low speed and acceleration.. the ship is turning very bad when you start your engines and start accelerating, even when you have the rudder totally pinned in one direction....

the truth is.. in this case the ship turns best... when your ship is stopped and all the propeller force is pressing the water against your direction pinned rudder, the change of the curse will be maximized, since your back with the rudder is pressed with all the force from the engine to the direction your pinning your rudder with no line stabilization of your length and speed, since you have no speed yet.

 

I know that because i am actually skipper, and if you want to maneuver your boat on very close circles you slow down and then you pinn your rudder at max and then thrust into the pinned rudder and you ship will turn way faster while its accelerating and the turning speed gets lower and lower as closer you get to the max speed.

[Exocet6951]

Hi Community but Especially Defs !

 

I just wanted to desperately announce that the physics of steering a ship is sadly totally wrong...

 

First of all, as faster your ship goes as harder it gets to correct any direction.. since you have an over 200m line that moves in the water, as faster this line moves as more stable it is in its direction.. 

in the game you can turn best as faster you move so thats the first horrible mistake..

 

On the other hand, the faster you go, the more water gets pressed against the rudder. Physics isn't that easy.

 

second is the turning behavior at low speed and acceleration.. the ship is turning very bad when you start your engines and start accelerating, even when you have the rudder totally pinned in one direction....

the truth is.. in this case the ship turns best... when your ship is stopped and all the propeller force is pressing the water against your direction pinned rudder, the change of the curse will be maximized, since your back with the rudder is pressed with all the force from the engine to the direction your pinning your rudder with no line stabilization of your length and speed, since you have no speed yet.

 

Fun fact, ships without directional pods and only rudders cant turn if there no water pressing against the rudder. If you go 1 knot in a 30000 ton ship, don't expect to turn very fast. Like sails, if there's no wind there's no movement.

 

But since this will ultimately degenerate into an internet physics argument in which both sides will used overly simplified primary school physics to try to prove their point, I'll just go right out and say it : it's an arcade model, not a simulation.

Playing a ship simulation with ships that size would be a true testament to patience, and nothing would get done in the 20 minutes of allocate game time.

 

 

[ThikBrick]

fun fact that physics i explained, truly behave like i explained.. your rudder is in the position directly behind your propeller...

and actually not only that... if you just have one propeller not two, the ship always turns into the direction of the momentum of your single propeller even when your rudder is in a straight line with your ship..

 

damn explaining physics when you actually never experienced yourself how all the facts that you listed are proofed but the impact just doesn't fit, since other facts overcome those ^^

 

i mean i only had once the chance to actually maneuver a real big ship that was about 250m, a container vessel from unifeeder, but normally around 50m ship you exactly use those trics in a harbor to get your maneuver done, as long you dont have free moving propellers or a transverse thruster...

[Drycon]

Still, it's arcade, not reality.

Concessions have to be made if you want a (relative) fast paced naval warfare game.

[ThikBrick]

and i forgot, when you really maneuvered a ship of this size you will recognize that when you want to go backwards your rudder is nearly useless to change your direction, because the propeller isnt thrusting against it anymore.

 

mmhhh, yeah its arcade, but with real mechanism, a ship would become more maneuverable because you can use tricks like that, so it would make the game even more arcade and actually give a "right" feeling and you would be aware of it if you once want to be skipper ;-)

[ColonelPete]

Eh, the ships turn better at lower speeds.

It just takes longer, but the turn radius is smaller.

[ThikBrick]

Eh, the ships turn better at lower speeds.

It just takes longer, but the turn radius is smaller.

 

mmmhh i think someone really didnt get the point ^^

[ColonelPete]

You did not define "turn best".

Time or area?

[ThikBrick]

You did not define "turn best".

Time or area?

 

no turning speed is actually defined in radius per time, so how many minutes you need to fulfill a 360° turn. in a 250m the times on full speed and when you start speeding up are immense. 

[ShockPirat]

You can't really compare 60k ton battleships to small ships.

And even small ships with no sidethrusters are hard to maneuver from a standing still point (especially reversing so the propeller doesn't push the water over the rudder)... The propeller acts as a wheel and turns the stern to side before the shis picks up some speed and the rudder starts responding.

 

For an arcade game, imo physics are good enough

[ColonelPete]

 

no turning speed is actually defined in radius per time, so how many minutes you need to fulfill a 360° turn. in a 250m the times on full speed and when you start speeding up are immense. 

That is somewhat realistic.

If you go slow, it takes time to turn.

If you go fast, you need more area, but finish the turn faster.

 

[Exocet6951]

i mean i only had once the chance to actually maneuver a real big ship that was about 250m, a container vessel from unifeeder, but normally around 50m ship you exactly use those trics in a harbor to get your maneuver done, as long you dont have free moving propellers or a transverse thruster...

 

Oh, I see the problem now.

 

No you see, modern ships have side mounted propellers to ease maneuvering, and truly massive ships have their propellers mounted in 360 degree rotating pods, and are basically able to pivot.

 

WWII era warships had approximately none of that. Just the good old fixed propellers and rudders at the back.

[Andrew_Fanner]

If I want to make a very sharp turn I'd use differential shaft speeds as well, and that's not an option.

[infoteam]

If I want to make a very sharp turn I'd use differential shaft speeds as well, and that's not an option.

 

Or you can juse/have "Controllable Pitch Propeller". Helpfull if you cant have different shaft Speeds.

 

[Ectar_]

Remember when thinking about real life situations, real life ships didn't have HP bars or unlimited torpedoes   Some concessions have to be made in order for game play mechanics and controls.

[Pastaiolo]

Like in all things in such a game, i guess it comes down on finding a mix between realism (or historical accuracy for other complaints) and balance.

[ThikBrick]

That is somewhat realistic.

If you go slow, it takes time to turn.

If you go fast, you need more area, but finish the turn faster.

 

 

no you dont... its the thrust of the propeller not the speed in water..

[T0rad]

Remember when thinking about real life situations, real life ships didn't have HP bars or unlimited torpedoes   Some concessions have to be made in order for game play mechanics and controls.

 

no! they dont have to be made. THEY. DONT. HAVE. TO. BE. MADE. they are made because of misinformation of developers or because of laziness. explain to me please how would that ruin the game? this is exactly why i stoped WoWp, because the physics model was actually a spaceship with not a sigle hint of physics of flight. 

 

The thing with this kind of changes is that it almost does not limit unknowing player, but for a knowing player it adds the right feel. The opposite, like it is now, it looks like the devs are lousy and wont go another mile...

[yXOLAXy]

Hi Community but Especially Defs !

 

I just wanted to desperately announce that the physics of steering a ship is sadly totally wrong...

 

First of all, as faster your ship goes as harder it gets to correct any direction.. since you have an over 200m line that moves in the water, as faster this line moves as more stable it is in its direction.. 

in the game you can turn best as faster you move so thats the first horrible mistake..

 

second is the turning behavior at low speed and acceleration.. the ship is turning very bad when you start your engines and start accelerating, even when you have the rudder totally pinned in one direction....

the truth is.. in this case the ship turns best... when your ship is stopped and all the propeller force is pressing the water against your direction pinned rudder, the change of the curse will be maximized, since your back with the rudder is pressed with all the force from the engine to the direction your pinning your rudder with no line stabilization of your length and speed, since you have no speed yet.

 

I know that because i am actually skipper, and if you want to maneuver your boat on very close circles you slow down and then you pinn your rudder at max and then thrust into the pinned rudder and you ship will turn way faster while its accelerating and the turning speed gets lower and lower as closer you get to the max speed.

 

thank you for the contribution of your experience / knowledge about it: you will be ok too skipper but are you sure that what you said is applicable to warships? the ingegnieria naval made great strides over time ... and still okay realism but it is a game that should be fun.  +1 x you

[N00b32]

Hi Community but Especially Defs !

 

I just wanted to desperately announce that the physics of steering a ship is sadly totally wrong...

 

First of all, as faster your ship goes as harder it gets to correct any direction.. since you have an over 200m line that moves in the water, as faster this line moves as more stable it is in its direction.. 

in the game you can turn best as faster you move so thats the first horrible mistake..

 

second is the turning behavior at low speed and acceleration.. the ship is turning very bad when you start your engines and start accelerating, even when you have the rudder totally pinned in one direction....

the truth is.. in this case the ship turns best... when your ship is stopped and all the propeller force is pressing the water against your direction pinned rudder, the change of the curse will be maximized, since your back with the rudder is pressed with all the force from the engine to the direction your pinning your rudder with no line stabilization of your length and speed, since you have no speed yet.

 

I know that because i am actually skipper, and if you want to maneuver your boat on very close circles you slow down and then you pinn your rudder at max and then thrust into the pinned rudder and you ship will turn way faster while its accelerating and the turning speed gets lower and lower as closer you get to the max speed.

 

In my opinion the physics were better in closed beta, but then again humans are pretty bad when it comes to ship movement. And unless you have some experience yourself, they just fail horrible in it. We both know there is no way you can collide with another ship crossing yours*, because there are evasion patterns, simple determination methods to check if you collide at all, if you do not ajust your course slightly and so on....

But a lot of players don't know. They are plain stupid. The amount of ship collision in closed beta was hilarious. I had a few collisions myself where I was in a battleship and thought this stupid destroyer coming from starboard has no problem avoiding me, because the angle on him changed. But in the last moment the destroyer changed course because he can't comprehend what is going on. And let's be honest, world of warships is more about driving a hard to steer car on an empty parking ground, than steering a ship. But it has to be, because players don't care and don't want to learn. This is not a simulation, it is plain arcade. and I bet it will get a lot easier in the future, because a lot of player can't comprehend hidden enemys. Especially kids have psychological problems with invisible enemys. They can't handle it. Logical behaviour and courage is not in their nature. And that gap between a real ship game with invisible enemys and kids with childish behaviour patterns is the real problem of the game. 

 

*unless you screw it up or the available space is limited

[ThikBrick]

yeah the almighty health bars...

i know, but it feels so strange to have such a nice sim like that... especially when you are used to navigate vessels that still have just rudder and 1 propeller, where you even have to know in what direction your propeller spins. 

 

it just dont feel right, and that makes me sad a bit.

 

aahh and yeah.. the Unifeeder close to 200m container ship... 6000 containers..over 100k BRT i was able (privileged) to maneuver out once in Hamburg.. and actually its pretty awsone .. today you just have a turning button that you turn and the ship will follow.. and yes we had to use tricks like that because it didnt had transverse thrusters.. but we had help from one tugboat just in case.

you can feel how the Heck of your ship is coming as soon you power the machines up with the rudder pinned. its not the nose thats going in the direction where you pointing, its the heck that swings around before you even take on speed.

 

So i can say yes, a little experience even in bigger ships ;-)

 

[ThikBrick]

Remember when thinking about real life situations, real life ships didn't have HP bars or unlimited torpedoes   Some concessions have to be made in order for game play mechanics and controls.

 

 

 

thats really sad to hear from an employee... since the change isnt really hard to realize and you would actually dont teach lies to ppl that like the game...

i mean everyone is aware that a healthbar is a good representation of how much beating an object can take before it suffers... its something that even a kid understand that damage has to be rated somehow.

but a ship sim, or arcade, or game bla bla, should at least meet ship characteristics.. and atm it just dont..

 

 

i like the game as i like WoT, i pay for my fun with prem acc, with prem ships/tanks, but its just sad to hear that when you try to be as accurate in gunpower, shell flight mechanics.. they are actually pretty good made, since shell would actually behave like that... a shell never fly a perfect bow.. as soon it slows under critical velocity the dropping will increase massivley... thats critical air resitance to kinetic energy vs energy needed to push against a "wall" of air.. its just the same as you would hit the water with more then 20kmh its feels like a wall... if you have enough energy you will push trough it, if not you would break to 0 in the first few cm and it would feel like conrete... but not in one of the most important mechanics in the game you actually using 95% of the time playing..

 

 

just sad, since you also suffering lot of tactic options that real battles decided the outcome from... not implementing such a "true" mechanic will cost you more over time, then the ammount of "dublons" invested to implement it.. thats no suggestion, thats a fact, because a lot of ppl dont like to be fooled esacially in realism when the rest of the game making advert is based on "facts" and "close" to realism... like all the ship really were in service... acceleration, proportional firepower, etc etc..

 

 

just a little to think of, even when my name normally is a fact for most dicussions out there ;-)

 

 

i even would offer my help in implementing... but i would need to take holydays so plan upfront hahaha

[kamuka]

 

Oh, I see the problem now.

 

No you see, modern ships have side mounted propellers to ease maneuvering, and truly massive ships have their propellers mounted in 360 degree rotating pods, and are basically able to pivot.

 

WWII era warships had approximately none of that. Just the good old fixed propellers and rudders at the back.

 

It's quite obvious you have no clue.

 

Every ship can prop walk and ships with multiple props, so all (?) ships in game, can turn within their own lenght.

 

I've actually studied naval architecture and been on and steered quite a few vessels.

[ThikBrick]

a big thx to kamuka, finally some ppl that have some exp and speaking up... i mean i like the fact that this game shows some power of the tools that were used back then.. i mean not to gloryfy what happend back then, but as a game i think its a good way to explain and or show what had to be mastered, even when some characteristics are tuned to fit the game.. for example : the acceleration had to fit game time.. none of the ships would have reached max velocity in 15-45sec.. more like 300-900sec.. but the velocity is pretty good 20-30 knots for med to heavy ships, thats what they reached more or less. some even more depending on the waterline.

 

 

what i also would like to see are borders of maps like in battlefield 2-4 and then setting in a crew that can mutiny if staying too long outside that border instead driving in a virtual wall ^^

[Admiral_noodle]

I would really hate a hard border or anything like that. Border surfing is annoying but I'd rather that than other solutions.