To WG: Is there anything being done about the essex/midway?

[Zogash85]

And in both of their reviews demonstrate the massive tactical errors many players make while playing against carriers. People think they're in a battleship and that makes them invincible. You sail off like a moron without proper AA protection, you're asking for it.

 

Today, in my North Carolina, I was driving in close formation with an Atago and a Tirpitz for mutual AA support (we didn't have any tier IX or X CAs). I saw the Midway torp bombers coming for me, so immediately turned into them, focus-clicked one squadron, the Atago activated his AA skill - i.e. we did everything we could do. I still died miserably. The Midway player just turned his high speed planes on a dime, got into my side (I immediately counter-steered, to no avail) and launched the double spread of torps from such a short range that there was just nothing I could do to avoid them. Nothing. This is ridiculous!

 

Either nerf the planes' turning circles, or at least double the torp arming range. The way it is now is just plain disgusting.

[FloRead]

CV_11_Intrepid, ignore the IJN CV mafia. This whole USN vs IJN CV fight will never end.

 

Basically, it boils down to this. Your torpedo bomber squadron is more important than anything else you do or have as a CV player. Damage is king in this game.

 

On air superiority decks, shooting down planes is nice but it doesn't win games. Think of a carrier's planes as her turrets. If you shoot down all the enemy CV's planes, that CV is still sailing but effectively has no turrets. And unless you can do something to take advantage of that situation, like torpedo and bomb with impunity which you mostly can't as USN air superiority, there is no point in just clearing the skies. You only cancel each other out and get a nice badge. If the enemy CV so much as makes even 1 successful torpedo run on a ship in your fleet, you lost that air superiority battle.

 

T4, your Langley has far better fighters than the Hosho. This is due to both carriers having only 1 fighter squadron but your fighter squadron has the advantage in numbers. In a Langley vs Langley fight, try to engage her torpedo bombers. Failing that, engage her fighter squadron so your torpedo bomber has a free run. Simple. For Langley vs Hosho, take advantage of the fact you have 6 fighters in your fighter squadron and try to bully the Hosho player. However, remember, the Hosho has 2 torpedo bomber squadrons and is more flexible. You only have 1 fighter squadron so you cannot completely stop a Hosho attack. The Hosho can panic your torpedo bomber squadron always if she plays it smart.

 

T5, I would strongly advise you stick to the basic deck(1/1) because of the torpedo bomber squadron. Your alternative is a 0/1/2 or a 2/0/1 deck. If you feel up to it, 0/1/2 is fine, but 2/0/1 is deadweight. 1 dive bomber squadron will not do a lot of damage, and not in T5 battles. You will be facing a Zuiho which upgraded has 4 squadrons. It's difficult to stop the Zuiho. Best thing you can do is not allow the Zuiho to stop you and do as much damage as you can. If the Zuiho does not try to stop you, use your fighters to push the Zuiho around. Don't allow him to fly freely around the map. The very presense of your 6 fighter squadron is enough to force a Zuiho player to make a detour. It's essential if you want to keep a friendly destroyer or ship from being detected in the air.

 

T6-7, IJN CVs have far more flexibility and damage capability. Their fighters squadron is not as hardy as the USN fighter squadron, but don't let the hysteria fool you. 2 IJN squadrons of equal tier and upgrades will beat 1 USN squadron. All their decks have torpedo bomber squadrons so they are always guaranteed to deal damage. If you play as USN CVs, the general advice is, stick to your basic deck(1/1/1) or go strike and do the best you can. That 1 torpedo bomber squadron is more important than anything else. Air superiority deck is a deadweight for your team. Protect the torpedo bomber squadron and you should do fine.  

 

T8 is the most balanced tier, although as Lexington, you really have only 1 sensible deck, the 2/1/1. Your 2 fighter squadrons will always ensure air superiority. Rare is the game where I'm beaten in the air by the Shokaku when I was playing the Lexington. If your opponent is another Lexington, always focus her torpedo bomber squadron. A Lexington only has enough planes for 3 full torpedo bomber squadrons. 

 

T9-10, complete reversal. USN CVs become the queens of damage. Although you won't start with the strike deck, once you can, get the strike deck. All other decks are just not as effective as the strike deck. And then it's just a damage race. At this point, I don't think I'm lying if you find BB/CA/DD players groan if the opponent has an Essex or Midway, cheers if they see an opponent Taiho or Hakuryu. The IJN cannot race an Essex or Midway strike deck for damage. You will find that in T9-10, many IJN CVs will sport an air superiority deck, and it sort of works for them as their air superiority decks have torpedo bomber squadrons. However, unless you are outplayed, you will still handily outdamage the Taiho or Hakuryu air superiority decks. Hence why I advise against air superiority decks for your earlier CVs. I'll gladly see the Essex and Midway nerfed, despite the fact I play them. Better for the game in the long run.

 

However, I'm not a good CV player. In fact, I'm terribad, look at my winrate. Temper what I write with some common sense and you should do well. Most importantly, have fun.

[lankylad11_lankylad]

I have heard the IJN CV's are getting their narrow drops back.  If this is the case, you can't nerf the Essex or Midway, until you take away the torpedo bombers of the hak and taiho air superiority loadout, or give Essex and Midway 3/1/1 at the moment that isn't fair, and also take a fighter squad off the strike loadout for a torp bomber.  at the moment IJN have more fighters in the air if hte midway captain chooses strike, and so he gets air superiority.  I thought USN carriers were meant to get air superiority..............

[Leonadios]

And in both of their reviews demonstrate the massive tactical errors many players make while playing against carriers. People think they're in a battleship and that makes them invincible. You sail off like a moron without proper AA protection, you're asking for it.

 

Why I'll agree that you should be forced to sail with AA protection, you shouldn't die in 1 strike simply because no other ship can do that. If you put two Yamatos next to eachother at point blank range and one unloads a waterline broadside into the citadel, it's not likely that it will die in 1 hit. Whereas with the Midway, it's 100% guaranteed that you'll kill it in 1 hit.

[FloRead]

 

Why I'll agree that you should be forced to sail with AA protection, you shouldn't die in 1 strike simply because no other ship can do that. If you put two Yamatos next to eachother at point blank range and one unloads a waterline broadside into the citadel, it's not likely that it will die in 1 hit. Whereas with the Midway, it's 100% guaranteed that you'll kill it in 1 hit.

 

It's simply amazing how much you seem to know about the Midway. No, it's impossible for a Midway to sink a Yamato in 1 strike wave.

[Leonadios]

 

It's simply amazing how much you seem to know about the Midway. No, it's impossible for a Midway to sink a Yamato in 1 strike wave.

 

Yes, it is.

 

2 x TB Bomber Squads

 

2 x 6 = 12

 

12 planes = 12 hits

 

12 x 9867 (listed max damage) = 118,404

 

2 x DB Squads

 

2 x 7 = 14

 

14 planes = 14 hits (theoretically, 14 hits is never going to happen)

 

14 x 7500 (listed max damage) = 105,000

 

118,404 + 105,000 = 223,404

 

That's without including flooding and fire damage.

 

[FloRead]

*facepalm*

Yamato does 14800 per AP shell. 9 x 14800 = 133200 damage, which means Yamato will 1 shot anything.

It does not work like that. 

 

Doing 9867 per torpedo on a Yamato is never going to happen. Actually, no, done. I should leave you to live in fantasy land.

[Leonadios]

*facepalm*

Yamato does 14800 per AP shell. 9 x 14800 = 133200 damage, which means Yamato will 1 shot anything.

It does not work like that. 

 

Doing 9867 per torpedo on a Yamato is never going to happen. Actually, no, done. I should leave you to live in fantasy land.

 

 

And even if you account for 'impossibilities', it's still doable. As I mentioned already, if you halved the damage of the torpedoes to 4934, you'd still be able to do it.

 

12 x 4934 = 59,208

14 x 3750 = 52,500

 

59,208 + 52,500 = 111,708

[DJ_Die]

Except the bombs never do even half their damage and i don't see how you want to make all torps and bombs hit unless the Yamato is afk... 

[ShockPirat]

Yamato has the largest torpedo bulge in the game. Torps that hit on the bulge will only do half damage.

It is doubtfull dive bombers will do more than 8k damage per squad,and thats if you get lucky. Many bombs won't hit and those that do will do less damage because of superstructure armor.

Flooding can be ignored as it won't do much damage because of the bulge (ships with bulge take less % flooding damage). So you use repair party only after dive bombers set you on fire.

There's also heal, which will almost fully negate one whole torp squad worth of damage.

Finally, the Yamato will probably shoot a few of the planes down before they drop.

 

Good Yamato will require at least 3 separate strikes from the Midway to sink.

[Leonadios]

Except the bombs never do even half their damage and i don't see how you want to make all torps and bombs hit unless the Yamato is afk... 

 

It's easy to hit 6/6 torps with a US drop, especially on a ship the size of the Yamato.

Yamato has the largest torpedo bulge in the game. Torps that hit on the bulge will only do half damage.

It is doubtfull dive bombers will do more than 8k damage per squad,and thats if you get lucky. Many bombs won't hit and those that do will do less damage because of superstructure armor.

Flooding can be ignored as it won't do much damage because of the bulge (ships with bulge take less % flooding damage). So you use repair party only after dive bombers set you on fire.

There's also heal, which will almost fully negate one whole torp squad worth of damage.

Finally, the Yamato will probably shoot a few of the planes down before they drop.

 

Good Yamato will require at least 3 separate strikes from the Midway to sink.

 

It's unlikely, but my point is that it's possible.

[DJ_Die]

 

It's easy to hit 6/6 torps with a US drop, especially on a ship the size of the Yamato.

Uh no it isnt unless the Yamato captain is a drooling idiot who cant press any keyboard keys because:

A) every decent captain will maneuver thus not allowing you to hit him will torps

B) Yamato still has a decent AA battery with high chance of destroying your planes before they even strike even though its not a US BB

C) the longer he can keep you circling around to get a good angle the more time he has to shoot down ever more of your bombers

 

hell have you even played US CVs? yes you can score some lucky hits against bad/unaware opponents but thats about it. if you try to drop too close a good captain will just drive into your torps and most if not all will fail to arm and if you drop from too far the torps will spread too much

[Leonadios]

Uh no it isnt unless the Yamato captain is a drooling idiot who cant press any keyboard keys because:

A) every decent captain will maneuver thus not allowing you to hit him will torps

B) Yamato still has a decent AA battery with high chance of destroying your planes before they even strike even though its not a US BB

C) the longer he can keep you circling around to get a good angle the more time he has to shoot down ever more of your bombers

 

hell have you even played US CVs? yes you can score some lucky hits against bad/unaware opponents but thats about it. if you try to drop too close a good captain will just drive into your torps and most if not all will fail to arm and if you drop from too far the torps will spread too much

 

Every decent CV player will account for changes in course. It is very easy to hit 6/6

 

 

Go to 16:36

[DJ_Die]

 

Every decent CV player will account for changes in course. It is very easy to hit 6/6

 

 

 

Go to 16:36

Yeah he killed 2 idiots who didnt even bother dodging before the torps were in water....also that Yamato actually STOPPED for a while.... That guy in Yamato deals less damage per battle than me in my Kongo....

[Leonadios]

Yeah he killed 2 idiots who didnt even bother dodging before the torps were in water....also that Yamato actually STOPPED for a while.... That guy in Yamato deals less damage per battle than me in my Kongo....

 

Faster ships are even easier to hit 6/6 on because the drop relies on them sailing into the end torpedoes. Regardless of how well you think he played, it is possible with little skill to hit 6/6, whereas with IJN it's extremley difficult to hit 4/4. In all of my time grinding to tier 8 IJN CVs I've only ever done it twice, and I consider myself to be pretty decent.

[lankylad11_lankylad]

i believe they are about to buff the torpedo drop of japanese carriers.  typical.  carriers need certain things to fix them, so wg do the exact opposite.  Before Essex and Midway are tampered with, the loadouts of the four top tier carriers need fixing in USN favour.  both IJN ones have better air superiority loadouts, while having more fighters in their strike loadout than the american equivalent.  Taking the lead ship of the classes.  USS Essex and USS Midway spent 70 years in service between them.  IJN Taiho and IJN Hakuryu spent about four months.  Yet we have a situation where the IJN ones have better loadouts either in air superiority or stock

[Leonadios]

i believe they are about to buff the torpedo drop of japanese carriers.  typical.  carriers need certain things to fix them, so wg do the exact opposite.  Before Essex and Midway are tampered with, the loadouts of the four top tier carriers need fixing in USN favour.  both IJN ones have better air superiority loadouts, while having more fighters in their strike loadout than the american equivalent.  Taking the lead ship of the classes.  USS Essex and USS Midway spent 70 years in service between them.  IJN Taiho and IJN Hakuryu spent about four months.  Yet we have a situation where the IJN ones have better loadouts either in air superiority or stock

 

Except top tier IJN don't have 'better' loadouts, they have more versatile loadouts. The strike damage of the Essex and Midway is way better than the Taiho and Hakuryu.

[lankylad11_lankylad]

well, certainly in air superiority  terms, IJN carriers have better loadouts because they are allowed torpedo bombers in such loadouts.  And up to and including tier 8, IJN strike loadouts are better.  Problem at tiers 9 and 10 is that your japanese carrier gets more fighters in its strike loadout, so it can to an extent control things

[Leonadios]

well, certainly in air superiority  terms, IJN carriers have better loadouts because they are allowed torpedo bombers in such loadouts.  And up to and including tier 8, IJN strike loadouts are better.  Problem at tiers 9 and 10 is that your japanese carrier gets more fighters in its strike loadout, so it can to an extent control things

 

And the fact that the Midway can kill any ship in the game with 1 strike isn't a problem?

[DJ_Die]

 

And the fact that the Midway can kill any ship in the game with 1 strike isn't a problem?

 

No it cant kill every ship in the game with one strike unless the driver is stupid but yeah strike midway is OP ut so are most mid tier IJN Cvs...

[lankylad11_lankylad]

Precisely, but I don't see Japanese carrier captains complaining about that.  So before everyone just gets on a high horse about midway, can we look at the facts.  I still believe midway needs 3/1/1 as its air superiority.  However, Zuiho, Ryujo and Hiryu are better than their american counterparts in damage application, and in certain circumstances can have more fighters in the air than their USN CV counterpart while being good at doing damage.  I think Lexington is probably better than Shokaku, but at tiers 4 - 7 the Japanese carrier beats its American rival in damage application by a distance.  at tier 8, the Lexington can bully the Shokaku, but the Shokaku probably still wins in theoretical damage application.  Difference at tier 8 is that Lady Lex has two fighter squads but sensible damage.  Why can't the Americans have a turn at being good at dealing damage

[FloRead]

Midway with 3 fighter squadrons and air supremacy is scarily effective in the air superiority role. And I do mean seriously scarily effective. You have the fastest planes which means you will intercept anything you want. You have 7 fighters in your squadron which means you can destroy any IJN squadron in the air or tie up a Midway strike deck's 1 fighter and 2 torpedo bomber squadrons. If you have 1 torpedo bomber squadron which is also extremely fast, you can race for damage quite well.

 

This is not quite the same as T8. Lexington has 2 fighter squadrons and no option to go for 3. Because you have 2 fighter squadrons, a match up with a Lexington usually involves compromise. Against a Shokaku, it gets even harder because the Lexington's Corsairs, deadly as they are are not the fastest planes in the air.

[lankylad11_lankylad]

my argument was more that it is hard to do significant damage with the midway air superiority loadout, so most people don't go for it, whereas for the Hak, it has two torpedo bomber squadrons, so you can do good damage.  I just thought the Midway should have similar damage dealing capability.  The other way to go is to say the Hak gets 4/0/4 or 4/1/3.  the 4/2/2 Hak however, is attractive because it allows good damage to be done, where as most midways are strike because teh air superiority loadout doesn';t allow enough damage to be done.  So you will find Hak's getting air superiority which seems wrong

[Blizzard____]

Precisely, but I don't see Japanese carrier captains complaining about that.  So before everyone just gets on a high horse about midway, can we look at the facts.  I still believe midway needs 3/1/1 as its air superiority.  However, Zuiho, Ryujo and Hiryu are better than their american counterparts in damage application, and in certain circumstances can have more fighters in the air than their USN CV counterpart while being good at doing damage.  I think Lexington is probably better than Shokaku, but at tiers 4 - 7 the Japanese carrier beats its American rival in damage application by a distance.  at tier 8, the Lexington can bully the Shokaku, but the Shokaku probably still wins in theoretical damage application.  Difference at tier 8 is that Lady Lex has two fighter squads but sensible damage.  Why can't the Americans have a turn at being good at dealing damage

 

lexington is much worse than it seems; it has very few torpedo bombers in the hold (and they are slow).

if not properly escort your bombers, finish early without them and become a bogue t8.

the torpedo bombers of shokaku are much faster and effective.

 

[lankylad11_lankylad]

so you are saying that Japanese carriers do more damage than americans including tier 8?  I loved my lexington cos i could bully the Shokaku and dictate terms.  Surely you have to let the americans catch up on damage.  Indeed the American tiers 9 and 10 were probably the two most succesful carrier designs of the 1940's that actually took to the seas, so they should be good