New consumer rights for the UK

[DexterMaximus]

 

As of today we in the UK, now have newer and better rules....

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rights-for-consumers-when-buying-digital-content

http://metro.co.uk/2015/10/01/new-law-means-30-day-refund-for-broken-video-games-5415914/

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-10-01-new-consumer-rights-act-puts-gamers-in-the-driving-seat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34403005

 

To be honest, WG actually have a pretty good record here!

 

Before you all start going mad at the suggestion that WG do anything right, I want you to consider other games and firms...

 

I have played ED (by FD), WT (By Gajin) BSGO (Bigpoint) and many many others....

I found that WG may have some issues, when it comes to prem time, and prem tanks it really is not that bad.

 

 

 

However, there are many other games that have caused all manor of sh1t on release or after an update (The new batman game)

 

But for all you forum lawyers, have a look and see what you think.

 

Given the "non to specific wording" this could be a massive gun for the consumer, that could in theory give each and every one of you HUGE power over games! 

 

 

One example, if WG released a new tank (premium) and it was not as described any UK punter could claim the money back not only if bought via the prem shop, but also in game via gold (if said gold was bought for cash) This was hazy before but now it seems "clearer" (well a bit).

 

I can not really think of any prem's that would actually fit (Maybe the panther 88), WG tend to keep anything you paid cash for at least as good as the day you bought it (Pretty much).

 

But if you bought a plane in WT that was later nerfed, that is now a different story... at least it should be...

 

What do you guys think....

 

(first posted in the general for tanks)

 

 

 

[Siagor]

OK, but how does it collide with EULA?

 

For example, I bought a Premium tank/ship/plane when it was good. Then WG decide to "balance", and nerf it into oblivion.

 

As a customer, I am tricked - the product I purchased is no more performing as when (and why) I bought it. I can claim money back. But in EULA, I've agreed that vehicles can be changed.

[Takru]

Well, EULA can't invalidate national laws, can it? Besides, anybody who read the EULA probably either chose not to play the game or chooses to play without spending any actual money on it. That said, I do have some doubts that an EULA would be a way out of this for companies. Lawyer-tounge is a language of it's own, lawyers want it this way so people have to come to them to actually understand what is written there. Have seen cases in Germany where the clicking of an EULA was not deemed essential enough for circumventing some repercussions for the company.

[Siagor]

Not arguing with you, just pointing out an interesting legal point:

 

In accepting EULA, you've accepted to be treated that way. You were not promised anything, and you've accepted that. Hence, you were not tricked. So no national law was infringed.

[Wischmob_von_Eimer]

Dont know how it is in britain, but in germany a eula is not worth the paper it is written on.

[Ryuuteimaruu]

EULA generally don't hold up in court.

[DexterMaximus]

OK, but how does it collide with EULA?

 

For example, I bought a Premium tank/ship/plane when it was good. Then WG decide to "balance", and nerf it into oblivion.

 

As a customer, I am tricked - the product I purchased is no more performing as when (and why) I bought it. I can claim money back. But in EULA, I've agreed that vehicles can be changed.

 

Dont know how it is in britain, but in germany a eula is not worth the paper it is written on.

 

 

The UK is the same EULA's mean nothing!

It is really just for the US market.

 

The new ruling goes far beyond what was stated before however...

 

WG don't really nerf stuff (Premium) for the most part. But if they did it would in theory allow customers to ask for refund's at least that is how the act seem to be set up...

 

On the tanks post, I suggested this is a pretty OP bit of consumer law and though I doub't WG will fall foul of it in any major way ? It may help you as gamers with other firms!

[Darzok]

 

 

 

The UK is the same EULA's mean nothing!

It is really just for the US market.

 

The new ruling goes far beyond what was stated before however...

 

WG don't really nerf stuff (Premium) for the most part. But if they did it would in theory allow customers to ask for refund's at least that is how the act seem to be set up...

 

On the tanks post, I suggested this is a pretty OP bit of consumer law and though I doub't WG will fall foul of it in any major way ? It may help you as gamers with other firms!

 

To be fair it don`t mean much in the US i recall reading it was laughed at in court after it was used in order to ban an account that was sold the guy took them to court and won getting the account back.

 

I think its just there for the sake of trying to make people feel they can not disagree with who ever runs the game more than any thing sort of a well you signed it we can do what we want deal with it but if pushed to court it all ways get destroyed.

[DexterMaximus]

 

To be fair it don`t mean much in the US i recall reading it was laughed at in court after it was used in order to ban an account that was sold the guy took them to court and won getting the account back.

 

I think its just there for the sake of trying to make people feel they can not disagree with who ever runs the game more than any thing sort of a well you signed it we can do what we want deal with it but if pushed to court it all ways get destroyed.

 

The US has the Blizzard case, though it is a little messy it does at least mean that eula's mean something... (But what that something is will cost a lot of money and lawyers to decide) Precedent was set (Remember US is common law) maybe it will be appealed ?

 

The UK has the kindle / amazon case that basically laughed EULA's in to the realm of utter BS!

 

The EU did have the bigpoint case (though it was specific to Germany) and I am not really sure how civil law countries codify precedent, yet the EU has since made decisions that make EULA's worthless in any other area so I assume the same would apply to online gaming... 

 

 

 

PS...

Onlime gaming can also refer to bookies and such, they have a WHOLE bunch of different rules... I can tell you there is no such thing as an expert there ! LOL.... Every other week there is yet another case squabbling a previous case! Usually the general guidlines are enforced by the firms themselves, funny thing is that it usually works... well? mostly? 

[Archiee]

 

While EULA's are sometimes difficult to enforce in full, the issue of changing the specifications has been around much lnger than digital content.  You will find most manufacturers of everyday goods reserve the right to change the specification of the product. In the digital world that can mean a change in system requirements and the type of hardware required to use it, to the digital content itself.

 

The argument of changing the specs of a purchased ship/tank would be covered by the reserved right by the provider to change the specification.  While you presonally may feel cheated because the product no longer works in the way it did initially, WG would feel it is a reasonable change required to improve the product.  You would need to prove that it was an unreasonable change, and even if you did you would only be entitled to a discount based on how much use you got from the product before it was changed.

 

Basically unless its completely FUBARed when they realease it, and they dont put it right, you are entitled to a refund with 30 days.  Also worth bearing in mind is once it is acknoledged that it is faulty, that 30 days is paused.  So if its proven faulty, patched and supposedly fixed, the 30 days restarts and if it is still faulty the law still applys and you are still entitled to a full refund.

[cherry2blost]

As of today we in the UK, now have newer and better rules....

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rights-for-consumers-when-buying-digital-content

http://metro.co.uk/2015/10/01/new-law-means-30-day-refund-for-broken-video-games-5415914/

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-10-01-new-consumer-rights-act-puts-gamers-in-the-driving-seat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34403005

 

To be honest, WG actually have a pretty good record here!

 

Before you all start going mad at the suggestion that WG do anything right, I want you to consider other games and firms...

 

I have played ED (by FD), WT (By Gajin) BSGO (Bigpoint) and many many others....

I found that WG may have some issues, when it comes to prem time, and prem tanks it really is not that bad.

 

 

 

However, there are many other games that have caused all manor of sh1t on release or after an update (The new batman game)

 

But for all you forum lawyers, have a look and see what you think.

 

Given the "non to specific wording" this could be a massive gun for the consumer, that could in theory give each and every one of you HUGE power over games! 

 

 

One example, if WG released a new tank (premium) and it was not as described any UK punter could claim the money back not only if bought via the prem shop, but also in game via gold (if said gold was bought for cash) This was hazy before but now it seems "clearer" (well a bit).

 

I can not really think of any prem's that would actually fit (Maybe the panther 88), WG tend to keep anything you paid cash for at least as good as the day you bought it (Pretty much).

 

But if you bought a plane in WT that was later nerfed, that is now a different story... at least it should be...

 

What do you guys think....

 

(first posted in the general for tanks)

 

 

 

Biggest problem we had, and to a point still HAVE, is that Wg are based in Belarus..... if you are not happy with response from WG about a major issue/flaw, you can obviously attempt the legal route or the chargeback route... but as soon as you instigate EITHER of these WG bans your account from their servers.... so basically we have to suck it up because, if you want to play WG products then you need your account available to use... WG know this and the threat of deletion/locking/banning is strong enough that very few people would argue against WG at all.... it does smack of bullying, and is probably illegal in many countries/territories but the fact is WG have the controls over who can and more importantly WHO CANNOT utilise their servers.....

 

Would love to see someone actually 'take one for the team' and try any of the above... but obviously we wouldn't hear about it here as the user would be banned from Game AND Forums immediately......

[DexterMaximus]

 

Biggest problem we had, and to a point still HAVE, is that Wg are based in Belarus..... if you are not happy with response from WG about a major issue/flaw, you can obviously attempt the legal route or the chargeback route... but as soon as you instigate EITHER of these WG bans your account from their servers.... so basically we have to suck it up because, if you want to play WG products then you need your account available to use... WG know this and the threat of deletion/locking/banning is strong enough that very few people would argue against WG at all.... it does smack of bullying, and is probably illegal in many countries/territories but the fact is WG have the controls over who can and more importantly WHO CANNOT utilise their servers.....

 

Would love to see someone actually 'take one for the team' and try any of the above... but obviously we wouldn't hear about it here as the user would be banned from Game AND Forums immediately......

 

This is being mentioned here http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/529124-new-consumer-rights-for-the-uk/

But using Cyprus instead of Belarus ....

 

It does not really matter as UK punters will get this protection no matter where a firm is based (IE apple is a US firm, but if they screwed you you can fight back) ....

 

But like I said earlier the way WG works they are not really gonna get hit by this, unless they change their policy's....

 

But other firms!

 

Can you imagine Gajins legal team this morning ? 

Or EA

or Konami

 

 

I guess if this act does not get busted the EU will have to follow suit (the EU tends to copy the UK's rules in this matter where it is at least possible) ((common law vs civil law etc. etc. )) we shall see how this goes...

[anonym_GKEljZAsgbBN]

EULA:

If Hitler were to make his own EULA, would that grant him the right to burn people alive?

But they haven't read 20 pages of purposefully complicated text? Oh, I guess in that case, go ahead Mr. Hitler!

 

Just to be clear, WG is far from being the worst, in fact they are better than most. But that doesn't change the fact that the whole free2play industry is a wild west of e-commerce, and should be properly regulated.

[DexterMaximus]

EULA:

If Hitler were to make his own EULA, would that grant him the right to burn people alive?

But they haven't read 20 pages of purposefully complicated text? Oh, I guess in that case, go ahead Mr. Hitler!

 

Just to be clear, WG is far from being the worst, in fact they are better than most. But that doesn't change the fact that the whole free2play industry is a wild west of e-commerce, and should be properly regulated.

 

 

I saw this in anther post....

 

 

But!

 

 

[delaci76]

Well more laws on this the better. I have been saying for over a yr at Guru3d tougher laws are needed.

 

Didnt see anything re DLC that's another shady area.

[chazwozza]

Just proving that you're bought item is no longer as advertised will be enough to bypass the EULA rubbish

[delaci76]

Does that mean the conservatives have done something good?

 

[DexterMaximus]

Does that mean the conservatives have done something good?

 

Dude,

This may be little too good ?

I think this will be argued at some point and certain points will be made a lot more specific! 

I also suspect that certain liability's may be excluded !

 

As it stands if you buy a digital product that screws up you security allowing "issues" you could claim against the firm. ESPECIALLY if any such flaw should never have even been there (BIG HINT FD). That bit alone could shut down firms even big ones. Usually insurance has max amounts, but this is a little vague...

 

Being fair to WG their security is pretty good (for on-line games it's among the industry leaders) but it would only take one screw up and it cost them or any other firm a whole ton (many actual tons) of money.

 

 

....

But, it does appear (for the time being) them "evil torys" have come up trumps!

 

 

 

No doubt that  crazy Corbyn fella will try and ban on-line games for some reason ?

[cherry2blost]

 

No doubt that  crazy Corbyn fella will try and ban on-line games for some reason ?

 

Anybody else at all scared by that guy?

 

I mean really..... hey jeremy radar detects multiple launches from Russia, aimed at London.... don't worry boys I told Vlad that London was a nuclear free zone..........

[beercrazy]

 

Anybody else at all scared by that guy?

 

I mean really..... hey jeremy radar detects multiple launches from Russia, aimed at London.... don't worry boys I told Vlad that London was a nuclear free zone..........

 

nope

he hasn't got a chance in hell of being a prime minister

I used to be a labour voter (from up north in uk most of us where in the past) but no way would I vote for him to get into power

 

 

[BlueMoon51]

The important part of the EULA  is this part

 

14. NO RESTRICTION OF CONSUMER RIGHTS

The provisions of this EULA do not exclude, limit or otherwise restrict the rights vested with the consumers upon relevant provisions of applicable law nor may be construed by anyone in this way.

 

basically you are not able to sign your rights away under it all consumer rights that you happen to have via your Nation and or EU override anything that is more restrictive.

[Scarebird]

 

WG don't really nerf stuff (Premium) for the most part. 

 

I take it you didn't buy a Yubari or Sims then, both of which have been nerfed.

[DexterMaximus]

 

I take it you didn't buy a Yubari or Sims then, both of which have been nerfed.

 

I have had expereince with WoT...

I am new to WoWS....

 

I doubt there will be any further nerfs, I just bought the warspite! If they nerf it... I get the full £37 back! Nice!

 

Maybe they will stop the silly bundles as they would be included in any refund (perhaps as it was a single sale ?)

 

 

ps...

I know in some countrys beta release's get some sort of special protection as the product may be marked as "unreleased" or prototypes etc...

 

But in the UK beta means jack... If you paid, you are a customer.

 

Though since the 17th it is all academic in any case.

[MicroWarp]

 

I have had expereince with WoT...

I am new to WoWS....

 

I doubt there will be any further nerfs, I just bought the warspite! If they nerf it... I get the full £37 back! Nice!

 

Maybe they will stop the silly bundles as they would be included in any refund (perhaps as it was a single sale ?)

 

 

ps...

I know in some countrys beta release's get some sort of special protection as the product may be marked as "unreleased" or prototypes etc...

 

But in the UK beta means jack... If you paid, you are a customer.

 

Though since the 17th it is all academic in any case.

 

I can absolutely assure you that there is zero chance of you ever clawing money back off WG. Seriously, stop dreaming. They'll just ignore you on support and it's financially non-viable to try legal action against a non-UK company. They know this. 

 

If you used your credit card to purchase, you might try small clams court against your credit card company (after they stop laughing about internet ships). 

 

I used to be a trading standards officer, so yes, I know what I'm talking about. 

[LMN118]

 

I can absolutely assure you that there is zero chance of you ever clawing money back off WG. Seriously, stop dreaming. They'll just ignore you on support and it's financially non-viable to try legal action against a non-UK company. They know this. 

 

If you used your credit card to purchase, you might try small clams court against your credit card company (after they stop laughing about internet ships). 

 

I used to be a trading standards officer, so yes, I know what I'm talking about. 

 

Pay by Paypal, as long as its within the purchase period there shouldn't be an issue, you simply force your way using Paypals buyer protection. There is a good chance that, if you were successful with an action or refund against WG they would close your account. Also with class action suites not available it makes it easier to go after larger entities. 

 

The only real change here is the 30 days period. You have always been protected against crappy merchandise. I've harassed Steam in the past about faulty games or incorrect purchases and always received a refund because EULA's do not trump statutory rights. Be careful with GoG as there redund scheme is bogus, they will refund a store credit but not your money when their games don't work. 

 

Ultimately it is up to the store how to process refunds and many still do not follow the DSR let alone any new regulations or acts. We are getting closer to better consumer rights however, much like we used to have since we were always allowed to return media to the store purchased if it didn't work. 

 

The EU is also currently drafting new legislation for the sale of digital content so make sure you put your point across to your European Parliament ministers. Also complain to eBay as well which offers no seller protection for digital purchases.