Today, I felt the BBs accuracy buff

[Ewokgod]

A full health Mutsuki, head on (smallest target possible) up against a Fuso.

 

The Fuso blasted me out of the water with one broadside.

 

This is not a rant. The Fuso did the right thing. He was cool, he waited until all his guns were lined up, it was over so quick that I still don't know if it was AP or HE he used

 

And I also play BBs, so I also benefit from the acc. buff.

 

My question is this.

 

The accuracy buff is necessary simply because BBs will end up having to defend themselves from DDs due to lack of team cohesion in random battles. BUT... if a Clan Wars metagame is introduced, will the buff be removed?

 

Think about it. The buff is necessary since you cannot trust your team's cruisers, destroyers and carriers to scout out and destroy fast small targets at safe distances while playing Random Battles. In Clan Wars, where you know and hopefully trust all your teammates, the only time a ship can get that close to you is if your team has dropped the ball. Will the acc. buff actually allow teams to survive making mistakes such as letting your BBs get ambushed? And should it?

[Luckyio]

It gets worse. I got one shotted with just two front guns of the same ship from 2/3 hp. I basically did everything right, went in to visual from behind the island right after BB fired and while his guns were facing the other way. Didn't help any. He got front guns rotated into position and killed me before I could finish the torpedo run.

 

From the other end, I now get games where I get 1-2 DD kills on Fuso as a routine. Had a game with all three kills that I got on Fuso being DD kills. It's so bad that I'm actually spending time with HE loaded actively looking for DDs instead of shooting at available targets with AP.

 

It's actually pretty surprising that DDs didn't get anything to compensate for this change.

[XTHD]

Your problem is not the BB's main battery accuracy, but rather your approach of charging a BB head on and expecting a good result. While it may work against a Fuso, in higher tiers the bigger problem for you is not the main battery, but the secondaries, so you should probably get out of this close and personal mindset. In a clan war setting you can contribute by making enemy BB turn (or take torps you've launched from medium range) so that he isn't angled properly against your team and take citadels.

[LMN118]

I think you experienced the RNG on battleships rather than the buff. If they consistently get good hits at close range then you could consider it a buff but to be honest RNG still misses a large proportion of the time at closer ranges.

[Ewokgod]

Your problem is not the BB's main battery accuracy, but rather your approach of charging a BB head on and expecting a good result. While it may work against a Fuso, in higher tiers the bigger problem for you is not the main battery, but the secondaries, so you should probably get out of this close and personal mindset. In a clan war setting you can contribute by making enemy BB turn (or take torps you've launched from medium range) so that he isn't angled properly against your team and take citadels.

 

The mindset is not set in stone, he was the last guy on his team, there were 2-3 of our BBs closing in, and I just went "ok, maybe I can get a death-or-glory kill". He was in open water and should have spotted me from 6.1km so, like I said, he was cool and collected, I made a "tactical error" and this time it was death

 

But I do think it raises a question about whether, instead of buffing BB acc, buffing the secondaries would have been a better long term solution for the BB vs DD engagement, where secondaries act as a "sort of" damage over time weapon, which allows for an ambush, giving the attacking DD a simple "He made a mistake, I can kill him but it will cost me x HP and will kill me if I take too long" rather than "He made a mistake, I can kill him, but he can blast me back to port, I hope he is not looking this way." A BB in a team that fails to protect it should be vulnerable to close range attack. The protection that the acc. buff gives might be overkill in a better-teamwork environment.

 

btw, I usually sneak up to 3km before charging and it tends to kill the target, though a tirpitz does tend to torp me in return. Its a useful tool for taking out lynchpins in the oppositions formation, and I think fully in the spirit of the Japanese Navy 

[Ewokgod]

I think you experienced the RNG on battleships rather than the buff. If they consistently get good hits at close range then you could consider it a buff but to be honest RNG still misses a large proportion of the time at closer ranges.

 

A couple of games before hand, I got too close to an island in my New York, got surprised by a Minekaze (tho I think I surprised him too), and won the engagement. And I am just not as calm as that Fuso driver

[Gatt]

Since the lack of co-op between players many BB drivers are actually learning how to deal with DDs and CAs at close range.

 

They have to becouse CAs and other DDs are often too shy at their job.

 

Yesterday, tired of AP krap overpenetrations, I ended my last games firing HE from my Fuso, NM and Tirpitz. I killed 1 DD and 1 CA in each game.

 

You should have listened to the whining from those torp (and HE) spammers after I destroyed their torp launchers and main turrets and then I killed them.

 

All inside the CAP circle. Very fun.

[OldGrandad]

@Ewokgod - I am not one to say how BB captains in general do or should play but if I am remotely aware of a DD or DD's in my vicinity whilst in a BB (currently @ T6) I always switch to HE and remain fully alert for them. As your opposition did as you described in your OP I will get as many turrets as possible to bring to bear upon the DD and let them have it, only RNG will save a DD in that situation. With HE you at least have the blast damage as well as splash damage that will wreck a DD. Yes, RNG did favour your Fuso enemy captain and unfortunately you paid the price.

[Adwaenyth]

There is (almost) no reason to go in like that in a Mutsuki. You do have the range to torp him from outside visual range. When you go in like that, not only the main artillery will be extremely dangerous but also the secondaries. Unless he's preoccupied with someone else, he can also simply sail away when you are spotted and basically cut your approach speed down to 15 knots.

[MrConway]

Personally I think the BB buff was vital, if a battleship has his turrets facing you in a DD and unloads a full volley of 35cm HE shells at you from point-blank range, you should not survive.

 

Don't put yourself in that kind of situation

[Vrumugun]

So US DDs T5-7 are now exclusively DD hunters, with BBs being explicitly target of opportunity ?
 

Death run was solid tactic for them (i am looking at 4,5 km torps).

[trrprrprr]

A full health Mutsuki, head on (smallest target possible) up against a Fuso.

 

The Fuso blasted me out of the water with one broadside.

 

This is not a rant. The Fuso did the right thing. He was cool, he waited until all his guns were lined up, it was over so quick that I still don't know if it was AP or HE he used

 

And I also play BBs, so I also benefit from the acc. buff.

 

My question is this.

 

The accuracy buff is necessary simply because BBs will end up having to defend themselves from DDs due to lack of team cohesion in random battles. BUT... if a Clan Wars metagame is introduced, will the buff be removed?

 

Think about it. The buff is necessary since you cannot trust your team's cruisers, destroyers and carriers to scout out and destroy fast small targets at safe distances while playing Random Battles. In Clan Wars, where you know and hopefully trust all your teammates, the only time a ship can get that close to you is if your team has dropped the ball. Will the acc. buff actually allow teams to survive making mistakes such as letting your BBs get ambushed? And should it?

 

Then remove  atleast half of torpedos from DDs and we are game. Only thing that really BB has is armor and good accuracy to stupid DDs in range of 10km and less.  So you want to be able to sail by BBs without worry to get shot while you spam torpedos in all directions and are able to one shot that BB....one that has atleast 4x more health? 

 

If you remove BB accuracy as it is right now, then cruisers should have atleast 20sec reload with huge HE nerf, carriers should have only 1plane type per squad and DDs to be able to launch max 3 torpedos per 1,5minutes.

 

Only DDs i have killed in my BBs where unskilled and just plain dumb, prolly was thinking that i wont be able to hit him for 8km range while hes sailing in straight line... Same goes for cruisers that are stupid enough to get in the BBs sweetspot = 10km range and show full side.... how many phoenixes ive 1salvo killed like that when they are coming out from island cover....  If you keep up this, all will be playing carriers only

[Khul]

... so you should probably get out of this close and personal mindset. In a clan war setting you can contribute by making enemy BB turn (or take torps you've launched from medium range) so that he isn't angled properly against your team and take citadels.

 

Just pointing out that this clearly explicates the problem with IJN DDs at high tiers: your "contribution" to the entire match is as a distraction or launching torps that you know aren't gonna hit for area denial purposes so that others can kill the opposition, & you are rewarded for this by getting sweet [edited]-all. It's even more boring & frustrating than AA-only cruiser play, frankly.

 

Because it's basically a colossal waste of time. I can't believe anyone else really desires to spend fifteen minutes out of a twenty minute game achieving nothing then scrambling madly for five minutes to try to pick off any stragglers so you get enough credits to pay for your repairs & all those torps you launched to "make enemy BBs turn" but did not hit because of the 2000 squadrons of aircraft covering every square inch of the map & the twelve-second plus detection time of your fish.

 

I've simply got better things to do, frankly.

 

PS on-topic: Yes I've scored some heavy hits from my Fuso & Kongo on DDs, & been wiped out by mid-tier BBs in my Minekaze & Mutsuki. It's telling that the advice given above ("Don't close in, you need to use your range!") is exactly the opposite advice propagated for the pre-nerf Minekaze ("Don't use the long range torps, it's better to close in with the short range ones!"): I wonder what a Minekaze is supposed to do now, other than use it's safe 800m window to launch & then retreat undetected, which is basically the gameplay of long-range torps pre-nerf (which pros told us over & over it was foolish to do) but with only a tiny margin of operations.

[Saltpastillen]

Imo theres still no reason to swap to HE. Especially in a fuso. If you actually do as the OP described above, you will still wreck a DD with an AP salvo.

 

Its not only the accuracy buff that comes into play, but also the general change to DD armor. Overpenetrations still do damage.

[BelRiose]

I think that, in real life, a single BB round from 280 to 460 mm can destroy a light ship like a DD...so is only a matter of aiming aAnd in game it must be the same. No need of any change at this point 'cause balance seems correct.

I'm a DD player and I like torpedoes also on Cruisers,  so I must only improve my skill in shooting torps without benn killed by the big ships...

[Crysantos]

@Ewokgod - I am not one to say how BB captains in general do or should play but if I am remotely aware of a DD or DD's in my vicinity whilst in a BB (currently @ T6) I always switch to HE and remain fully alert for them. As your opposition did as you described in your OP I will get as many turrets as possible to bring to bear upon the DD and let them have it, only RNG will save a DD in that situation. With HE you at least have the blast damage as well as splash damage that will wreck a DD. Yes, RNG did favour your Fuso enemy captain and unfortunately you paid the price.

 

It depends a lot on the situation, I think the situational awareness skill is vital for every captain, even BBs. To know you're spotted although nothing is in range is the perfect example to tell you to keep maneuvering and changing speeds to throw the DD offguard and lure him in to make sure his torps hit. Load HE, wait for your opportunity - but I usually kill the DDs at 4-6 km, if it's closer than that then I deserve to die or I chose to go balls deep because of torps etc.

 

I can't say that I felt the buff, it's mostly RNG at least in the higher Tiers. If you see a Shimekaze or Gearing at below 4km range you should be already prepping the recue boats for the crew.

[Martinborgen]

I'm just guessing, but wouldn't an over penetration be less likely from the front? As an AP round then would have to go trough the whole ship's length, more or less, hence not an overpen, hence dead DD. 

[Temid23]

As long as CA and DD in your team dont do their job and hunt that pesky DD from red team + secondaries on BB are so idioticly inacurate ( less then main guns )....

 

I even went with torp spotting skill on my BB.... way to often forced to hunt DD in BB and i really hate to be forced to do so

[WhoopieMonster]

I rarely shoot DDs, unless nothing else is in range and even when I do I do not bother changing to HE, just give them an AP volley. Can easily do 4-6k damage at my current tier (6). I also spec heavily in secondaries, they currently have a 5.8km range so I tend to let them deal with DDs.

 

I'm also more than happy to take a few hits while I wait for my target to make a mistake. IJN cruisers often try to get off torps which makes them a nice easy target to Citadel. Last night I got 3 citadels from 6 shots on an IJN cruisuer coming round an island to short range torp me.

 

Best advice I can offer is:

 

• Plan in advance, predict where your targets are going to be and ensure your guns and pointing in the right direction
• BBs can dodge incoming rounds, so do not sail in a straightline and act like a damage sponge.
• You can bounce rounds, angle your hull while your guns are reloading
• If you cannot fire all your weapons at one target, then use your front weapons for one, rear for another
• Prioritise your secondaries. Do not let them shoot a BB when a DD is only 3km away.

[Hauptbahnhof]

Personally I think the BB buff was vital, if a battleship has his turrets facing you in a DD and unloads a full volley of 35cm HE shells at you from point-blank range, you should not survive.

 

Don't put yourself in that kind of situation

 

Easier said then done when BBs can turn on a dime

[MrConway]

 

Easier said then done when BBs can turn on a dime

 

Some of them might have a small turning circle, but they still turn with the speed of a lazy bathtub

 

So US DDs T5-7 are now exclusively DD hunters, with BBs being explicitly target of opportunity ?
 

Death run was solid tactic for them (i am looking at 4,5 km torps).

 

I think it still is, I still use them, but you need to make sure the BB is busy with something else and doesn't have the chance to train all his guns at you. Well timed dodging also helps.

[Drycon]

I did notice I got blasted out of the water much more efficiently in my DD. Thought I was tired but I hardly could get close enough in about 3 games for a good torp wave.

 

Oh well, games change and so does my playstyle.

[Vaderan]

First of all, i´d say the described situation was one of these RNG moments the game likes to present from time to time. Nothing to hype about it. The OP didn´t say anything wether he got ammoracked or not.

In times we receive stories about events happening in this game several times an hour, i´d like to play with numbers.

The Fuso has roughly 6k damage with HE shells, some 10500 with AP, talking about damage potential on citadell hits.

If WG didn´t change anything, the 0.1, 0.3, and 1.0 mechanic still aplies, with the latest patch for DDs aswell, which had a unique 0.1, 0.5, -.- rule, and now a 0.1, 0.3, -.- mechanic.

The talk is about damage mechanics. An overpenetration causes 0.1 (or 10%) of a shells damage potential, a regular penetration roughly a third of a shells damage potential. Only citadell hits do 100% (factor 1.0) damage of their potential.

A 2/3 health Mutsuki should have something around 6-7k health (maybe even 8k+? Don´t know the numbers, sry). Since DDs have no citadell, removing 6-7k health requires some 6 overpenetrations with AP, 2-3 regular penetrations with AP or 5-7+ penetrations/close hits by HE.

We all know from experience, that scoring 3+ hits on a DD with one salvo is a really tough task, which doesn´t even come for free below 3km range, up to where the recent BB accuracy buff kicks in.

I agree, BBs main batteries turn that accurate below 3km, they might be able to choose which bulkhead to blast on the enemy, but it is aswell the range where DDs and fast CAs can outrun the turnrate of the turrets, if doing it right.

Kicking a full health DD out of the water with a single salvo is an event which will only happen, if a DD captain does fall to a chain of mistakes and misjudgements, and the BB captain got awarness, skill and luck with rng. The so often recalled "i got 2-hitted in my 100%  health DD by a BB" story is just not possible due to the limits of game mechanics, with very, very few, not reproducable exceptions, like ammo-storage explosions and several non overpenetrating AP hits.

 

I don´t say it doesn´t happen, since i have been on both ends of the chain several times. It´s just the fact that several aspects and a lot of luck and skill have to come together to make things happen that way.

You still can chase down and/or charge a BB in a DD and get away with it. I do this several times a day, if i take one of mine for a ride. But you have to trust in and rely on your skills and hope for the BB player to make mistakes. A skilled, cool headed, balls of steel BB captain will deny the success to the DD. But that´s the same a skilled, cool headed, balls of steel DD captain will do to any other enemy aswell.

Neither of these scenario makes BBs or DDs op or up. It´s probably that scenario and these aspects which allow the better player to stand out from the average player.

 

Last but not least, since it has been mentioned - secondary battery: the secondary battery guns roughly do 1500-2000 damage. As far as i know, they work with the same 0.1, 0.3, 1.0 damage mechanic, which means 150-200, 450-600 and 1500-2000 damage per shell, though i cannot imagine when a secondary shell will ever penetrate into a ships citadell. Secondary batteries, with the latest changes, have an average accuracy from 5% - 15%.

From my personal experience, i rarely get those 15% accuracy when going point blank with my Arkansas Beta (which has 10 secondary batteries per broadside) against another, slow moving BB in Bot/training battles within a range of some 3km and below. In ideal circumstances, this means probably some1500 damage out of the secondary batteries in 2 full salvos. Seriously nothing to write home about, especially when taking the number of guns firing into account.

Everyone who hoped to stop a low HP DD at his charge with his secondary guns knows what i am talking about. A buff of 100% to the secondary guns, increasing their average accuracy to some 10%-30% still wouldn´t make any huge difference, especially at lower tiers (yes, i am looking at you, Wyoming and New York, with your three guns per side).

Izumo and Yamato may be an exception, though. But i lack the experience to comment that, i admit.

[Luckyio]

 

Some of them might have a small turning circle, but they still turn with the speed of a lazy bathtub

 

 

I think it still is, I still use them, but you need to make sure the BB is busy with something else and doesn't have the chance to train all his guns at you. Well timed dodging also helps.

 

Fuso is a cripple in terms of turning speed. And right now, due to that accuracy buff it's also a DD hunter that is better than any cruiser, because it tends to blow them out of the water in a single volley. BB can be busy with something else as well. Even with that cripple level turning circle, it's still more than enough to blow a DD trying to make a torpedo run before it can launch from a reliably undodgeable distance.

 

What game actually needs is corrections to low tier battleships so that newbies that don't know how to dodge can play them without getting completely shredded by torpedoes. At higher levels on the other hand, we need BB nerfs and DD buffs right now.

[Khul]

I think that, in real life, a single BB round from 280 to 460 mm can destroy a light ship like a DD...so is only a matter of aiming aAnd in game it must be the same. No need of any change at this point 'cause balance seems correct.

 

I am too tired to look it up now, but there's been long & involved arguments on this forum which utterly destroy such an assertion, mate.

 

Many pics were posted of DD's shot by high-calibre BB rounds that went right through & did not detonate, leaving a neat hole like something out of a cartoon.