Ranked: Balance the goddamn destroyers!

[Andreevson]

One team having a destroyer vs a team without one will allways win. Allways.

 

The scouting and capping they provide is just too much value. Wargaming you need to look into this.

[Userext]

fix the destroyers and it will be done. Just wait for SNDDs. They are overall balanced(a tier 6 isnt going to be weaker than tier 5) so it is likely to be seen in game at every tier as normally populated.

[Andreevson]

I am talking about teams with uneven destroyers in ranked battles. The one with more destroyers can allways scout and cap more.

[ColonelPete]

No, you just need to hunt and kill him.

Quite easy with a CV, without you have to work for your win.

I have won games with 1v3 DDs.

[MrRedKill]

Quite easy with a CV, without you have to work for your win.

I have won games with 1v3 DDs.

Well, that's very nice to say, we have to work for our win, while their team barely needs brain to win. I appreciate this balancing. Playing DD isn't very hard when the enemies don't have both CV and DD.

[Userext]

I am talking about teams with uneven destroyers in ranked battles. The one with more destroyers can allways scout and cap more.

 

because tier 6-7 DDs generally sucks. They can force MM to put mirror for ranked battles but that wont solve the problem

[ColonelPete]

Well, that's very nice to say, we have to work for our win, while their team barely needs brain to win. I appreciate this balancing. Playing DD isn't very hard when the enemies don't have both CV and DD.

Your team has more firepower, use it.

If the enemy is as brainless as you say, you will win easily.

[MrRedKill]

Your team has more firepower, use it.

If the enemy is as brainless as you say, you will win easily.

I haven't said they're brainless, all I have said is they don't need said BRAIN to easily win the game. Therefore a team as skilled as yours with a DD vs yours without a DD will roflstomp you all day.

[Niibler]

 Playing DD isn't very hard when the enemies don't have both CV and DD.

 

I rather to differ, besides that most of your battles are for Tier 5 DD's that don't go into Ranked games so how would you even know?

Get a tier 6 DD, get into Ranked battles, try a few without CV's and DD's and then come here tell us that it's easy mode.

[MrRedKill]

 

I rather to differ, besides that most of your battles are for Tier 5 DD's that don't go into Ranked games so how would you even know?

Get a tier 6 DD, get into Ranked battles, try a few without CV's and DD's and then come here tell us that it's easy mode.

If you grind me the credits or buy me doubloons for said credits, go on.

Less enemies to spot you, charging around in a fast ship, yeah it's quite easy, the only problem is I tend to get teammates that don't consider using strategies, so it'd be down to my luck to win or not, even if I kill 4 enemies solo and capture the points. There is only so much a single player can do, it's a teambased game afterall, eh?

[Aldramelech]

I haven't played many ranked but the one I did play in the Sims I was the only DD, I survived and capped multiple times but the whole team got killed and we lost, so it's not always true.

[Admiral_noodle]

When dds aren't mirrored I tend to find that in good games the enemy caps two out of three initially but then dies to cruiser swarm. Then the game can swing back. Ships cost points in domination mode and loss of a couple of ships can be decisive.

 

It would help if I was any good at shooting dds though.

[ColonelPete]

I haven't said they're brainless, all I have said is they don't need said BRAIN to easily win the game. Therefore a team as skilled as yours with a DD vs yours without a DD will roflstomp you all day.

A DD that is played without brains is easily killed (a lot of DDs get killed in the first five minutes of ranked battles). If you cannot kill him, he does not seem to be brainless. Or you are doing something wrong as other teams manage to kill the enemy DDs.

[Sybeck]

Change the game don't change the ship.  If you nerf DDs then that will most probably lead to imbalance complications in normal battles.  It's not the DDs fault it brings a natural advantage to this kind of game mode.

[daki]

OP, as I participated in several games with no or less destroyers compared to the other team, which the team with less DDs stil won, I am sorry to say that your opinion is wrong.

As long as the cruisers do their job, one DD more or less is not a big issue.

[MrRedKill]

Change the game don't change the ship.  If you nerf DDs then that will most probably lead to imbalance complications in normal battles.  It's not the DDs fault it brings a natural advantage to this kind of game mode.

 

I don't want DDs nerfed, I want them to be limited in even numbers for ranked.

 

 

OP, as I participated in several games with no or less destroyers compared to the other team, which the team with less DDs stil won, I am sorry to say that your opinion is wrong.

As long as the cruisers do their job, one DD more or less is not a big issue.

 

So you're telling me the CCs in my team never do their job? Bcus this happens more often when I play BB. I've lost a crap ton of ranks in uneven DD battles.

[Caves_of_Steel]

i've won games without dds against teams with dds so i dont see your problem

[ArcheX]

i've won games without dds against teams with dds so i dont see your problem

 

Not that im supporting any nerfing, in my eyes, a lot of DDs actually need buffing.... but that is another thread. Though i can support the mirroring. It is something which bothered me in normal battles too, as it introduces unevenness in battle which should be eliminated. Im a great fan of skill being important, not hardware. And though certain thing needs rebalancing, a simple solution would just be mirroring the sort of ships on both side, like they did with CVs. They did that for a reason, in my opinion those reasons go for BBs and cruisers too...

[Hauptbahnhof]

The issue is that ranked has such a large number of Cap points.

 

With half the ships the number of cappoints should also be half...

[PhantomVyper]

The issue is that ranked has such a large number of Cap points.

 

With half the ships the number of cappoints should also be half...

 

That is already how ranked battles work more or less. You already only have 2/3rds of the cap points for 2/3rds of the number of ships of a random battle.

[simonmd]

Sometimes there will be an odd number of DDs, life sucks. However, the team with less does have better guns and better survive ability so it's all swings and roundabouts really. 

[GulvkluderGuld]

OP can't say I agree with you. I played DDs and BBs in ranked so far, and I dont have the problems you talk about.

If all the DDs on one side gets annihilated, yes maybe. But usually that only happens a) if they are brainless enough to take a fight without backup or b) because they have a crap team that fails to support them.

The reason you often lose is (most likely) because your CAs are too scared of torpedoes to dare chase down the DDs.

 

If first you push them off the cap point, whether in DDs, CAs or BBs, what are they going to do then? 

Send longrange torpedoes your way? Wooosh, scary!

Unfortunately, the average player in WOWs is a scaredycat coward, so none dare make the push, and you see the CAs go for the easy targets (chase the CV) instead, causing you to lose the game.

 

I play US DDs and If I have even a half decent team to back me up, Its a win. 

Hell, if I'm in a BB and the team is full of cowards, i've taken caps with my New Mexico after first sending the camping IJN dds to the bottom (its gets quite easy to sink DDs once you know how they play).

 

Conclusion:

So you're telling me the CCs in my team never do their job? Bcus this happens more often when I play BB. I've lost a crap ton of ranks in uneven DD battles.

 

YES!

Have you ever seen a cruiser go on a singleminded chase of an enemy DD?

Have you ever seen cruisers NOT leave their BBs alone while they go chasing off alone (to die/ kill the CV)?

 

Good cruiser captains are the exception in rankeds. Get used to it!

 

 

[Fi_8_8_8_8]

Single sided DDs are not really as problematic as unbalanced CV MM. I partially agree though that a team without destroyers is at a slight disadvantage. My reason for this is as followed:

1. DDs will quick cap (normally the middle cap or the cap that the main fleet is not headed too) This forces the enemy team into the offence which, if not coordinated well, will lead to cruisers (who try to get rid of the DD) getting popped by BBs..etc
2. DDs will spot for the entire enemy team (meaning the enemy team will get off the first shots) more importantly though they will spot the cruisers as well, thus BBs can fire their first salvo at CAs instead of BBs, which if hit properly can lead to 1-2 citadels or complete destruction (even if only 1 cit is achieved, the CA is then limited in his options and has to play more save)
3. DDs always present a threat of potential torpedoing thus constant maneuvering is required of the entire fleet (when spotted) --> limiting maneuver options

 

On the other hand, if the single sided DD is not IJN, then the concealment and torpedo threat is limited. Also if the teams have CVs, DDs should be less of a problem.

 

More bothering for me though:

Since you do not see CVs as much in ranked, it does not occur as much, but in my more or less 100 ranked battles I had it three times that 1 CV was T6 and the other T7. Obviously the T6 CV was on my side. Which always led to my team biting the dust. Similar, if the enemy has a IJN CV and your team has only, let's say 2 Aobas, it is quite easy for the CV to rush a BB and sink it, since the short distance from CV to BB plus weak AA cover means that most TBs survive to delivery.

A solution to all those topics is IMO a more balanced MM which focuses on overall fleet composition balance (which requires an even number of ship classes to begin though). CV mirroring should also be implemented (as in random mode). Since the games are shorter than random and have only almost half the amount of ships, the plane numbers are quite high so i believe that losing aircraft (as compared to random mode) is not as painful. --> Meaning that CVs are relatively (compared to other classes) strong already.

For now, I do understand why MM is not always at it's best in ranked battles. Seeing that I can hardly get into a match at rank 10 (any time of the day) the player numbers are just not there yet. 

[Admiral_noodle]

OP can't say I agree with you. I played DDs and BBs in ranked so far, and I dont have the problems you talk about.

If all the DDs on one side gets annihilated, yes maybe. But usually that only happens a) if they are brainless enough to take a fight without backup or b) because they have a crap team that fails to support them.

The reason you often lose is (most likely) because your CAs are too scared of torpedoes to dare chase down the DDs.

 

If first you push them off the cap point, whether in DDs, CAs or BBs, what are they going to do then? 

Send longrange torpedoes your way? Wooosh, scary!

Unfortunately, the average player in WOWs is a scaredycat coward, so none dare make the push, and you see the CAs go for the easy targets (chase the CV) instead, causing you to lose the game.

 

I play US DDs and If I have even a half decent team to back me up, Its a win. 

Hell, if I'm in a BB and the team is full of cowards, i've taken caps with my New Mexico after first sending the camping IJN dds to the bottom (its gets quite easy to sink DDs once you know how they play).

 

Conclusion:

 

YES!

Have you ever seen a cruiser go on a singleminded chase of an enemy DD?

Have you ever seen cruisers NOT leave their BBs alone while they go chasing off alone (to die/ kill the CV)?

 

Good cruiser captains are the exception in rankeds. Get used to it!

 

 

 

After much frustration in my BBs in ranked - getting focussed and left behind - I think I'm going to try out Pepsi cola and just escort a BB and *not* leave them. Trouble is I'm awful at hitting dds. 

[GulvkluderGuld]

 

After much frustration in my BBs in ranked - getting focussed and left behind - I think I'm going to try out Pepsi cola and just escort a BB and *not* leave them. Trouble is I'm awful at hitting dds. 

 

Use whatever cruiser you are most comfortable with. If it is the pepsicola, go ahead and bring it out. 

For me, that would be the cleveland (less likely to take citadel hits).

 

For reference, you should be able to hit DDs inside a 5 km envelope reliably (even though they can be hellish targets).

 

Often there is a pattern in the DD movement, learn to spot it. Eg they will want to close, launch torpedoes (= turn broadside on) and escape. Look for the moment the he commits to turn broadside on, then hit with a full HE salvo (if in a cleveland spamship, just throw HE at the bugger, some of it is bound to hit). Due to shell flight time, it is almost impossible to dodge for the DD when he is committed to the turn. Obviously, make a radical course/speed change after he launced. 

Hitting >5-10 km require BB projectile speed or brainless dd captains since he will have time to maneuver.

 

When I chase down dds, it usually takes a while and navigating at least 2-3 torpedo patterns, often leading to at least one torpedo hit (saturation). But eventually the DD runs out of room, smoke or makes a mistake, even if he is good.

 

Finally, make sure to survive, eg. dont rush into bad fights (like around islands where you team cant support you). 

Chasing the DDs out of the cap and then sitting in the cap and laugh as they spam torpedoes is recommended. 

 

1. DDs will spot for the entire enemy team (meaning the enemy team will get off the first shots) more importantly though they will spot the cruisers as well, thus BBs can fire their first salvo at CAs instead of BBs, which if hit properly can lead to 1-2 citadels or complete destruction (even if only 1 cit is achieved, the CA is then limited in his options and has to play more save)
2. DDs always present a threat of potential torpedoing thus constant maneuvering is required of the entire fleet (when spotted) --> limiting maneuver options

 

1+2 is the main problem, as it often makes your team affraid to move decisively.

Think about it though. If the enemy team has more DDs, it means you have more guns than them, so any decisive fights should go your way, if you dont allow them to poke you down beforehand.